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  1. #1

    Coach K renews call for HS players to be NBA Draft Eligible

    "In baseball, actually in theater, in music, if you're 16 and you're really good, you go on a different path," Krzyzewski said on radio. "I really think that high school players should be allowed to go. And once they get to college, if you don't do that, I think a two-year period -- so you legitimize being in college going for an education. You don't just kind of use the college system as a training ground."

    http://www.cbssports.com/college-bas...the-nba-draft/

    This is a must read, some really important further comments by him in this article; some might passionately agree, others passionately disagree, a topic for some intelligent discussion here?

  2. #2
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    "In baseball, actually in theater, in music, if you're 16 and you're really good, you go on a different path," Krzyzewski said on radio. "I really think that high school players should be allowed to go. And once they get to college, if you don't do that, I think a two-year period -- so you legitimize being in college going for an education. You don't just kind of use the college system as a training ground."
    While I appreciate his comment, and think he is right, it is a bit disheartening to see him acknowledge that he has been recruiting kids that are doing exactly that.

    Not that it is any big secret...he is one of many, but also, with Calamari, a forerunner in the practice. Cal would still be slimy even if he didn't tell kids to go to UK to chase their NBA dreams. And I'm not in any way suggesting that K is slimy. He is simply following the path he believes is necessary for success.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  3. #3
    Wait, it's called the G league now? And the G stands for... Gatorade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    While I appreciate his comment, and think he is right, it is a bit disheartening to see him acknowledge that he has been recruiting kids that are doing exactly that.
    I think that in the current climate, regarding kids who are clear one-and-done talents, K sees his role (and Duke's) to prepare them with the kind of habits and skills that will allow them to succeed at the next level. It is not that these kids are not interested in the educational aspect of college, it is that they are getting a different kind of education.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    While I appreciate his comment, and think he is right, it is a bit disheartening to see him acknowledge that he has been recruiting kids that are doing exactly that.

    Not that it is any big secret...he is one of many, but also, with Calamari, a forerunner in the practice. Cal would still be slimy even if he didn't tell kids to go to UK to chase their NBA dreams. And I'm not in any way suggesting that K is slimy. He is simply following the path he believes is necessary for success.
    He has been pretty damn successful with the rules in place, yet advocates for a more "player first" system. At best, it's quite admirable that he wants to change the rules structure that he has benefitted from. At the least, it is a smart marketing move to keep endearing himself to young stars.

  6. #6
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    One thing among many traits I have admired Coach K for is his ability to change with the times. He has adapted to this era that many of us don't care for in regards to OAD.

    I have long wished for the same rules that are applied to baseball. Coach K probably would not mind that either but in realistic terms probably sees his proposal as being as good as we could hope for in regards to College Basketball.

    One thing I would add & this would take some cooperation from the NBA that doesn't show much concern for College Basketball. The dates for declaring changed or something to keep kids from signing to go to college...only to change their mind in May & go straight to the NBA. Shaun Livingston is a prime example that really knocked us back. I think at the time he was expected to stay at least two years. If that would have been the case we might have another Natty banner hanging..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    He has been pretty damn successful with the rules in place, yet advocates for a more "player first" system. At best, it's quite admirable that he wants to change the rules structure that he has benefitted from. At the least, it is a smart marketing move to keep endearing himself to young stars.
    I think you could argue Coach K was doing just as well, or perhaps even better pre-OAD. We certainly had more consistently dominant teams prior to the establishment of the one and done rule. Have we had a team in the OAD era on the level of the 2001 or 2002 teams? I would say no, even the 2011 team with a healthy Kyrie would have been slightly below that standard in my opinion.

    K actually resisted (or had trouble landing OADs) it for awhile when it first became the rule. Coach K didn't REALLY get into the OAD game until 2011 with Kyrie (I'm aware Maggette was OAD, but Coach K was against that), and even then, it was just one per year (Kyrie in '10, Austin in '11, none in '12, Jabari in '13) until 2014, when he got Tyus, Justise, and Jahlil. He didn't go full Calipari until the 2014 high school class. And even then, I'm pretty sure he was only really expecting Jah to go pro after 1 year. The one and done rule started in 2005, so it took Coach K a minimum of 5 years, and perhaps almost 10 years to fully embrace it, despite obviously not liking it.
    Last edited by kAzE; 06-21-2017 at 02:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I think you could argue Coach K was doing just as well, or perhaps even better pre-OAD. He actually resisted (or had trouble landing OADs) for awhile when it first became the rule. Coach K didn't REALLY get into the OAD game until 2011 with Kyrie, and even then, it was just one per year (Kyrie in '10, Austin in '11, none in '12, Jabari in '13) until 2014, when got Tyus, Justise, and Jahlil. He didn't go full Calipari until the 2014 high school class. The one and done rule started in 2005, so it took Coach K almost 10 years to fully embrace it, despite obviously not liking it.
    Okay, however you want to define "working for him," - he adjusted and it works currently and has won him a championship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Okay, however you want to define "working for him," - he adjusted and it works currently and has won him a championship.
    Well, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying it didn't work out for him for a long time. And he's actually only won 1 championship with OAD players, compared to 4 without. I also argued that he had more consistently dominant teams prior to OAD.

    It's "working" for him because he's the best coach ever, and he's able to land these OAD guys now, but have we really had better teams (relative to the rest of the country) in the past 12 years than in the 12 years before OAD? Maybe I've got my rose-colored old school Duke glasses on, but I think the answer is no. We've probably had more talent (especially recently), but the quality of the teams have not been as good. Duke's one-time reputation as an elite defensive team has really taken a dive since 2011.

    To cover my bases, I'm not saying we shouldn't go after OADs. You obviously have to do that nowadays. But I think it's not totally correct to say Coach K has "benefited" from OAD. He's just a really good coach, and has figured out a way to make it work. But he'd be just fine, if not better, without the rule. Coach K would continue to get top players whether they can go straight to the pros after high school or not. There's no inherent benefit for Duke directly as a result from the OAD rule.
    Last edited by kAzE; 06-21-2017 at 02:36 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I also argued that he had more consistently dominant teams prior to OAD.
    To expand on this point, Duke has lost 3 times in the first round in the OAD era:

    2007: VCU
    2012: Lehigh
    2014: Mercer

    Prior to OAD, Duke had only lost once in the first round during Coach K's tenure, in 1996, when he was out for the entire year.

    It's great that we won it all in 2015, but to view that championship as the thing that proves OAD is great for Duke while ignoring the struggles (by Duke standards) we've endured over these past 12 years is shortsighted.
    Last edited by kAzE; 06-21-2017 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    To cover my bases, I'm not saying we shouldn't go after OADs. You obviously have to do that nowadays.
    I'm not sure that that is entirely true that you have to go after OADs to compete. UNC has only had one 1-and-done in the last decade (before this year) and just won the National Championship...Not like Gonzaga is loading up on them either. (UNC has mostly whiffed on 1-and-done prospects or their 1-and-dones have turned into multi-year guys, so it hasn't really been by CHOICE admittedly). Not saying I want to emulate UNC's recruiting or anything else they do in any way, but clearly the results show that it's not a critical ingredient to have OAD players on your team to reach the mountaintop.

    I think Coach K has absolutely adjusted with the times with his strategies, but has always gone after top players basically. It's obviously much more difficult for Duke to be consistently dominant with as much transition as it's experienced as of late, as the top players used to stick around longer or we simply didn't have as many of them at once. Having two years from players who decide to go to college would be nice.

    I agree with Coach K that in "theater, music" you don't have to necessarily go to college to get to the top of your profession, but I don't agree when people say "no other profession forces artificial age limits/qualifications on you." Uh, lawyers have to go to 4 years undergrad and 3 years of law school. Doctors have to go to 4 years undergrade, 4 years med school, 4+ years residency, and then fellowships potentially. Basically most white collar desk jobs require 4 year college degree. So, we impose basic qualifications ALL THE TIME in all facets of life. Yes, there are exceptions of people who start their own business and drop out and the like, but it is VERY VERY rare. Particularly because the NBA drafts simply based on potential instead of actually being able to deliver value to their team. A company doesn't hire Mikey in the hopes he's going to provide company value in 3+ years, but it's worth the "investment" up front. No, they want you to be able to deliver value now. Obviously, the market for NBA players is very different than the common workplace -- not trying to suggest they should be the same, just don't like that argument that sometimes people make. Coach K isn't making it though and I agree with his opinion in this case.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Prior to OAD, Duke had only lost once in the first round during Coach K's tenure, in 1996, when he was out for the entire year.
    Slight nit: 1996 was the year *after* K was sidelined for most of the season following back surgery. The year he actually was sidelined for most of the season, the team went 13-18 and missed The Big Dance.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post

    One thing I would add & this would take some cooperation from the NBA that doesn't show much concern for College Basketball. The dates for declaring changed or something to keep kids from signing to go to college...only to change their mind in May & go straight to the NBA. Shaun Livingston is a prime example that really knocked us back. I think at the time he was expected to stay at least two years. If that would have been the case we might have another Natty banner hanging..
    This is a great point. They would have to find the sweet spot such that the kids had enough time to thoroughly evaluate their options and make an informed decision, but they are giving the schools enough time to try to adjust. As far as the coaches are concerned, the deadline to declare would be very early, but that is not fair to the kids. I know this makes things very hard for baseball coaches, and basketball teams are even smaller so adjusting would be even harder.

    The increasing strength of the D/G League also helps this, as it gives kids who want to play basketball and make some money and really don't want to be in college a viable option without having to go abroad at age 18. It will never happen, but I think the NBA should slightly decrease its bloated salary cap (money that is being wasted giving ridiculous contracts to the Mozgov's of the world) and increase D/G League contracts to a living wage. The D/G League salary cap this past season was $209k total per team with salaries of $19.5k and $26k per season. Doubling or tripling that is a drop in the bucket for the NBA but would be a meaningful increase for the players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    This is a great point. They would have to find the sweet spot such that the kids had enough time to thoroughly evaluate their options and make an informed decision, but they are giving the schools enough time to try to adjust. As far as the coaches are concerned, the deadline to declare would be very early, but that is not fair to the kids. I know this makes things very hard for baseball coaches, and basketball teams are even smaller so adjusting would be even harder.

    The increasing strength of the D/G League also helps this, as it gives kids who want to play basketball and make some money and really don't want to be in college a viable option without having to go abroad at age 18. It will never happen, but I think the NBA should slightly decrease its bloated salary cap (money that is being wasted giving ridiculous contracts to the Mozgov's of the world) and increase D/G League contracts to a living wage. The D/G League salary cap this past season was $209k total per team with salaries of $19.5k and $26k per season. Doubling or tripling that is a drop in the bucket for the NBA but would be a meaningful increase for the players.
    A couple of quick points here (I might return to this thread later for my standard rant on why we should be looking somewhere besides the baseball rule). Anyway, it's important to note that NBA salaries are collectively bargained as a percentage of revenue. Therefore, owners can't simply increase salaries by reducing NBA salaries. The players would have to agree to it (not likely) or the owners would have to pay for it out of their share of revenue (also not likely). It should be noted, though that there are some steps in the right direction. Under the new CBA, each team will be allocated three new roster spots for "two way players" who can be called up and sent down at will, without taking up a spot on the regular roster. These players will make a prorated portion of the NBA minimum when called up, and a prorated portion of between 50 and 75k when sent down. This move will likely entice a few more high level undrafted players to stay and play on the G-league rather than head overseas. Conversely, it will likely have a negative impact on players who aren't on a two way deal as 10-days will likely become less common as teams will likely opt for their own two way player much of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    A couple of quick points here (I might return to this thread later for my standard rant on why we should be looking somewhere besides the baseball rule). Anyway, it's important to note that NBA salaries are collectively bargained as a percentage of revenue. Therefore, owners can't simply increase salaries by reducing NBA salaries. The players would have to agree to it (not likely) or the owners would have to pay for it out of their share of revenue (also not likely). It should be noted, though that there are some steps in the right direction. Under the new CBA, each team will be allocated three new roster spots for "two way players" who can be called up and sent down at will, without taking up a spot on the regular roster. These players will make a prorated portion of the NBA minimum when called up, and a prorated portion of between 50 and 75k when sent down. This move will likely entice a few more high level undrafted players to stay and play on the G-league rather than head overseas. Conversely, it will likely have a negative impact on players who aren't on a two way deal as 10-days will likely become less common as teams will likely opt for their own two way player much of the time.
    I agree - note I preceded my suggestion with the phrase "It will never happen" - current players who vote on the CBA want to maximize their piece of the pie, and will only reduce that piece in exchange for something else that directly benefits them. Having a more compelling G League product by increasing salaries and having better players likely will not generate enough marginal revenue to offset the marginal cost so owners won't do it out of their pockets.

  16. #16
    I know it's popular to compare the NBA draft system to that of the MLB (and to want the latter for the former), but there's more than just draft-eligible years to consider. For one thing, if you sign a baseball contract out of high school and after a few years it becomes clear you're not heading for the big leagues, you will retire and go to college on scholarship. Granted you'll be treated as any other applicant so you won't be given preference as an athlete, but you're going to college on full (usually) scholarship, paid for by the MLB. This makes going straight after HS much more palatable. Not to mention the baseball scholarship opportunities in college are much more limited than for basketball. Second, the NBA also doesn't have nearly the minor league system set up that baseball does. They're just two totally different situations, and I think comparing the two is consequently fraught with limitations. Coming up with a system that would benefit the NBA, colleges, and the rights and well-being of prospects is tough to do.
    T '05, SOM '10

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    I agree with K that kids should be able to go pro right after high school. However, I don't think they should wait two years otherwise. They can't get a college degree in 2 years, so why the "education" argument? Let the kids go pro after 1 year too. The two-year requirement just benefits coaches, not the players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    Slight nit: 1996 was the year *after* K was sidelined for most of the season following back surgery. The year he actually was sidelined for most of the season, the team went 13-18 and missed The Big Dance.
    Good catch. I'll admit that K definitely gets credit for both of those seasons, even the one he sat out.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke95 View Post
    I agree with K that kids should be able to go pro right after high school. However, I don't think they should wait two years otherwise. They can't get a college degree in 2 years, so why the "education" argument? Let the kids go pro after 1 year too. The two-year requirement just benefits coaches, not the players.
    Why a 2-and-through rule (combined with allowing high school players to go straight to the NBA)?

    To improve the college basketball product.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    To expand on this point, Duke has lost 3 times in the first round in the OAD era:

    2007: VCU
    2012: Lehigh
    2014: Mercer

    Prior to OAD, Duke had only lost once in the first round during Coach K's tenure, in 1996, when he was out for the entire year.

    It's great that we won it all in 2015, but to view that championship as the thing that proves OAD is great for Duke while ignoring the struggles (by Duke standards) we've endured over these past 12 years is shortsighted.
    I think you misunderstand my point, or I didn't state it well. I also prefer the "old" system, and I imagine K does as well. If nothing else, recruiting didn't have to be a 365 endeavor.

    I am meaning to say that Duke/K has adjusted, made the best, won lots of games, won recruiting battles. The one and done has "hurt" Duke less than other schools. Yet K advocates for a more player friendly system.

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