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Thread: Midway

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    /checks his calendar... five more months of offseason to go

    //makes more popcorn

    I am very much enjoying the intelligent banter and passionate discussion here. Carry on.
    I am with you but occasionally someone has to flush.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Deslok View Post
    I'm not going to go into further depth on the substance of our disagreement. You think I'm wrong, I think you are, we disagree and that's fine. But this area is in fact a sore spot, and as mentioned previously having had a mother and wife teach the subject, I just went not 5 minutes ago to check the text my wife teaches out of(sidenote and would be a long diatribe, my wife generally hates teaching out of texts, and its depiction of WWII is one of the reasons). The book has
    1. A page on the German/Soviet invasion of Poland.
    2. Half a page on the phony war
    3. A page on the fall of France.
    4. A page on the Battle of Britain.
    5. One page on North Africa and Hitlers entry into the Balkans
    6. Half a page on the invasion of the Soviet Union
    7. A half page on Lend-Lease(surprisingly no mention of the Murmansk convoys though a sentence or two about sending supplies to the USSR
    8. A dozen or so pages about the Holocaust and the Pacific campaign and the "home front"
    9. A half page on the African campaign
    10. A half page on Stalingrad
    11. A full page on D-Day
    12. A half page on the Battle of the Bulge
    13. A half page on Hitler's Suicide and the German Surrender

    And this is not an atypical text for US schools, every school I've been at previously has been, more or less, analogous(did surprise me to note this book doesn't even mention Kursk at all). But that is the norm of American education today, and I think we can agree that this is not right.
    As you note, we obviously disagree about what it taught in our schools.

    But as I've noted before, I do agree that on the whole, many (maybe most) Americans don't appreciate the Russian contribution to the victory in Europe.

    My real complaint -- not so much with you as with several others on this page -- is the overcompensation -- the denial of the role played by the Western Allies. I'm sure we could argue the exact balance of the contributions or the Russians, but I think it's clear that all three of the major Allies -- the Americans, the British and the Russians -- played a significant role in the victory (actually, I would add the Free French and the Free Poles as significant secondary contributors). Indeed, if you want to talk about a nation's whose role has been forgotten by most Americans, I would nominate the Poles (refugee Polish fliers very well may have made the difference in the Battle of Britain ... Polish troops played as significant role after D-Day).

  3. #43
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    I am a day late but in honor of Al Featherston (Olympic Fan) I am sending this thread back to the top. Yesterday was the 77th anniversary of the Battle of Midway where Admiral Spruance wrecked havoc on the Japanese Carrier Fleet sinking four of the six aircraft carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor six months earlier and turning the tide of the Pacific War.

    The four sunk carriers were: Kaga, Akagi, Soryu, Hiryu.

    There are lots of books on the battle with Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully being the one I recommend to anyone desiring to learn more about this pivotal event in history.
    Bob Green

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I am a day late but in honor of Al Featherston (Olympic Fan) I am sending this thread back to the top. Yesterday was the 77th anniversary of the Battle of Midway where Admiral Spruance wrecked havoc on the Japanese Carrier Fleet sinking four of the six aircraft carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor six months earlier and turning the tide of the Pacific War.

    The four sunk carriers were: Kaga, Akagi, Soryu, Hiryu.

    There are lots of books on the battle with Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully being the one I recommend to anyone desiring to learn more about this pivotal event in history.
    Well-done to bring this back up, Bob.

    Yesterday was also the 75th anniversary of the Allies reaching Rome, and today is the anniversary of its official liberation I believe. The battle up the peninsula was brutal and unfortunately was largely overshadowed by the D-Day landings just a few days later. The battles around Anzio and Monte Cassino were vicious and the assaults were largely made against extremely well-defended positions.

  5. #45
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    Today is the 78th anniversary of the Battle of Midway a momentous day in our nation’s history so I am bumping this thread back to the top.

    Four of the six aircraft carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor were sunk on June 4, 1942: Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu.
    Bob Green

  6. #46
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    Midway

    Thanks Bob for bringing this thread back to the top. I enjoyed Oly's Midway posts that began in 2017 and I sure miss his posts. God bless those who gave it all for our freedom.

  7. #47
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    I had not seen this thread, and just read it start to finish. Some good discussion, and obviously a worthy topic and an important day is U.S. (and world) history. I haven't yet read "Shattered Sword", either, although it's been on my should list for a long time. Perhaps this will motivate me to finally get to it.

  8. #48
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    Just watched the John Ford short film mentioned up-thread, as well. It must have been produced very quickly. They memorialize the entire squadron, but Ensign George Gay (featured at roughly 5:30 in the film) famously survived the battle and was rescued by a PBY after more than 24 hours in the water. Indeed, not only did Mr. Gay survive the battle, he survived the war and actually served as a consultant on the '70s-era film starring Charlton Heston, also mentioned up-thread. In my opinion, it's a pretty weak movie, but largely accurate when it comes to the history of the battle.

  9. #49
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    I'm always a little late to the party but have to make a recommendation in this thread...

    If you haven't listened to Dan Carlin's Podcast - Hardcore History - you must! It is probably my favorite Podcast ever! He just released a new episode in his latest series "Supernova in the East" and I am trying to decide whether to go back and listen to the previous episodes or just to dive back in. "Supernova in the East deals with the Pacific Theater leading up to and in WWII. I cannot recommend it enough.

    If you are new to Dan Carlin but a fan of WWI maybe go back and start with "Blueprint for Armageddon I".

    His episodes are long (usually about 4 hours each), more like audiobooks than podcasts but his style and knowledge are phenomenal.

    That's my plug...
    "That young man has an extra step on his ladder the rest of us just don't have."

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nrrrrvous View Post
    I'm always a little late to the party but have to make a recommendation in this thread...

    If you haven't listened to Dan Carlin's Podcast - Hardcore History - you must! It is probably my favorite Podcast ever! He just released a new episode in his latest series "Supernova in the East" and I am trying to decide whether to go back and listen to the previous episodes or just to dive back in. "Supernova in the East deals with the Pacific Theater leading up to and in WWII. I cannot recommend it enough.

    If you are new to Dan Carlin but a fan of WWI maybe go back and start with "Blueprint for Armageddon I".

    His episodes are long (usually about 4 hours each), more like audiobooks than podcasts but his style and knowledge are phenomenal.

    That's my plug...
    I'll second all of this. Especially the WW I series.

    You can find some of his for free on Apple Tunes too.

    (He also has a great series on the Mongols, as well as the Persian Empire).

  11. #51
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    I'm not vouching for its accuracy, but this is an interesting attempt to tell the story of the Battle of Midway from the Japanese perspective, using only information that was available to the Japanese in real time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo

  12. #52
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    I’m a day late (again) in bumping this thread back to the top. Yesterday was the 80th anniversary of the Battle at Midway. Duke74’s D-Day post reminded me.
    Bob Green

  13. #53
    Midway was, in many ways, the turning point in the war with Japan.

  14. #54
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    I just finished Ian Toll's second volume of his Pacific War Trilogy. I highly recommend them to those who enjoy well-written narrative history. It's not for the casual reader at over 500 pages for each volume, but it covers the naval war in the Pacific in great detail and with insight that I haven't discovered in other books. While Midway was the Pickett's charge of WWII in terms of significance and the public imagination, there were many other naval engagements worth the effort to read about.

    However, what interested me and has current relevance, is that Toll spends time on the psychology of both the American and Japanese public during the conflict. These attitudes were shaped by strict censorship and the perceived needs of the war effort. Reading about what the Japanese public was told (and forced) to believe, doesn't seem that different from what the Russian people are told regarding the Ukraine war. Of course, I'm always looking to the past the explain the present, but I was struck by the parallels.

    If you invest the time in these books, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 15 View Post
    I just finished Ian Toll's second volume of his Pacific War Trilogy. I highly recommend them to those who enjoy well-written narrative history. It's not for the casual reader at over 500 pages for each volume, but it covers the naval war in the Pacific in great detail and with insight that I haven't discovered in other books. While Midway was the Pickett's charge of WWII in terms of significance and the public imagination, there were many other naval engagements worth the effort to read about.

    However, what interested me and has current relevance, is that Toll spends time on the psychology of both the American and Japanese public during the conflict. These attitudes were shaped by strict censorship and the perceived needs of the war effort. Reading about what the Japanese public was told (and forced) to believe, doesn't seem that different from what the Russian people are told regarding the Ukraine war. Of course, I'm always looking to the past the explain the present, but I was struck by the parallels.

    If you invest the time in these books, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

    I've read all three and are the best you'll find on the Pacific War, period.

  16. #56
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    Agree on the Ian Toll praise. The Rick Atkinson of the Pacific Theater.

    Or is Atkinson the Ian Toll of the ETO?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Agree on the Ian Toll praise. The Rick Atkinson of the Pacific Theater.

    Or is Atkinson the Ian Toll of the ETO?
    Atkinson was first, so there's that. I've read Atkinson, and just now informed my family that Toll is on the annual "give Dad a book" list.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I've read all three and are the best you'll find on the Pacific War, period.
    Since I've only read the first two, I have the pleasure of anticipation on reading the third. I think I'll take my time with the third volume to make the enjoyment last longer.

    To amplify my comment about what makes Toll unique on a subject that has been the subject of an almost infinite number of books/movies/photographic essays is the way he describes the emperor's involvement in the war. I grew up with the conventional wisdom that Hirohito was just a passive bystander and that the generals, led by Tojo, were responsible for getting Japan into the war and how it was prosecuted. Toll documents how Hirohito was much more involved, both with strategy (which wasn't that well thought out) and in the way he used his status among the Japanese people to encourage fanatical (i.e. suicidal) efforts from both soldiers and civilians. On reflection, I can see that during the cold war, it was expedient for the US to minimize these things in order to maintain the friendship of an important Asian ally, but apparently it was mostly fiction.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 15 View Post
    Since I've only read the first two, I have the pleasure of anticipation on reading the third. I think I'll take my time with the third volume to make the enjoyment last longer.

    To amplify my comment about what makes Toll unique on a subject that has been the subject of an almost infinite number of books/movies/photographic essays is the way he describes the emperor's involvement in the war. I grew up with the conventional wisdom that Hirohito was just a passive bystander and that the generals, led by Tojo, were responsible for getting Japan into the war and how it was prosecuted. Toll documents how Hirohito was much more involved, both with strategy (which wasn't that well thought out) and in the way he used his status among the Japanese people to encourage fanatical (i.e. suicidal) efforts from both soldiers and civilians. On reflection, I can see that during the cold war, it was expedient for the US to minimize these things in order to maintain the friendship of an important Asian ally, but apparently it was mostly fiction.
    Indeed, it is fascinating. And by happenstance, my robust 100 page history magnus opus (who doesn't love history majors?) was on the decision to drop nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki...needless to say, Toll has access to gobs of stuff I never had access to in 1971. Too many histories are written without sufficient information from the side of the losers.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Indeed, it is fascinating. And by happenstance, my robust 100 page history magnus opus (who doesn't love history majors?) was on the decision to drop nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki...needless to say, Toll has access to gobs of stuff I never had access to in 1971. Too many histories are written without sufficient information from the side of the losers.
    As in, "the winners write the history books?"
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

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