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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Yep. That was it. Made during the 35-second shot clock.

    And of course, a couple of exceptions:

    1) Texas A&M, down 12 with 44 seconds left in their game against Northern Iowa, ended up winning. The rule says they should have required 72.25 seconds.

    2) Nevada, down 25 points with 1:14 remaining, came back to win in double OT. The rule says they should have required 462.25 seconds (7.7 minutes), but they only required 74 seconds.


    The latter is probably the most unlikely/nearly impossible come-back in NCAA basketball history. I know that Oklahoma State was down 31 to LSU at LSU and came away with the victory, but I think the lead reached 31 with well more than 10 minutes remaining. I'm not exactly sure, but it wasn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the Nevada game.
    I am racing to post this before someone else does. Tulane ahead by 31 points at halftime, 56-27, WITH NO SHOT CLOCK. Duke wins 74-72. It appears to be the the third place game at Reynolds Coliseum in the old Dixie Classic, December 30, 1951. Dick Groat had 32 points in the comeback win. Tulane scored only 16 points in the second half, after putting up 56 in the first. It was the third game in three days for both teams. If Tulane was gassed, the Wave could have won by just holding the ball. I guess that wasn't the ethos of 1950 basketball.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Yep. That was it. Made during the 35-second shot clock.

    And of course, a couple of exceptions:

    1) Texas A&M, down 12 with 44 seconds left in their game against Northern Iowa, ended up winning. The rule says they should have required 72.25 seconds.

    2) Nevada, down 25 points with 1:14 remaining, came back to win in double OT. The rule says they should have required 462.25 seconds (7.7 minutes), but they only required 74 seconds.


    The latter is probably the most unlikely/nearly impossible come-back in NCAA basketball history. I know that Oklahoma State was down 31 to LSU at LSU and came away with the victory, but I think the lead reached 31 with well more than 10 minutes remaining. I'm not exactly sure, but it wasn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the Nevada game.
    I have this vague recollection of 8 points in 17 seconds being the only exception James noted when he published his guidance...

    <grumble> 9f </grumble>

    -jk

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colfax, NC

    Angry Thanks alot, Sage

    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I am racing to post this before someone else does. Tulane ahead by 31 points at halftime, 56-27, WITH NO SHOT CLOCK. Duke wins 74-72. It appears to be the the third place game at Reynolds Coliseum in the old Dixie Classic, December 30, 1951. Dick Groat had 32 points in the comeback win. Tulane scored only 16 points in the second half, after putting up 56 in the first. It was the third game in three days for both teams. If Tulane was gassed, the Wave could have won by just holding the ball. I guess that wasn't the ethos of 1950 basketball.
    Well, personally, my day would have been just fine without having to learn this little factoid.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Green Wave Dukie View Post
    Well, personally, my day would have been just fine without having to learn this little factoid.
    Sorry, Greenie, but this reflects well on Tulane. It could have shut the game down after intermission and cruised to a victory.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  5. #105
    "The Basketball Tournament" is currently being shown on ESPNU. The Elam Ending is again being used this year but instead of the target score being set at the leading team's score+7 it is being set at the leading score+8. I really am starting to like the concept of the Elam Ending and I imagine that its use will continue to find support on other basketball stages.

    https://www.inquirer.com/sports/elam...-20190801.html

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    "The Basketball Tournament" is currently being shown on ESPNU. The Elam Ending is again being used this year but instead of the target score being set at the leading team's score+7 it is being set at the leading score+8. I really am starting to like the concept of the Elam Ending and I imagine that its use will continue to find support on other basketball stages.

    https://www.inquirer.com/sports/elam...-20190801.html
    I like that it takes away the need to foul simply to stop the clock. Itís a more interesting end to the game.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    I like that it takes away the need to foul simply to stop the clock. Itís a more interesting end to the game.
    I still think there is a simpler and better answer, one which is truer to the history and spirit of the game.

    Whenever a player is fouled and it is a shooting foul (other than an "and one"), play continues as always unless the fouled team's coach immediately asks for the ball instead of free throws. In that case, the fouled team gets to inbound the ball from the point out of bounds nearest the spot where the foul occurred. That way, the fouling team can't foul and gain an advantage. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a simple and workable fix.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    I still think there is a simpler and better answer, one which is truer to the history and spirit of the game.

    Whenever a player is fouled and it is a shooting foul (other than an "and one"), play continues as always unless the fouled team's coach immediately asks for the ball instead of free throws. In that case, the fouled team gets to inbound the ball from the point out of bounds nearest the spot where the foul occurred. That way, the fouling team can't foul and gain an advantage. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a simple and workable fix.
    The Elam Ending doesn't just discourage intentional fouling, it also limits the extent to which the team with the lead is able to "take the air out the ball". The system you've described would still encourage teams with the lead to run a clock killing offense.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    I still think there is a simpler and better answer, one which is truer to the history and spirit of the game.

    Whenever a player is fouled and it is a shooting foul (other than an "and one"), play continues as always unless the fouled team's coach immediately asks for the ball instead of free throws. In that case, the fouled team gets to inbound the ball from the point out of bounds nearest the spot where the foul occurred. That way, the fouling team can't foul and gain an advantage. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a simple and workable fix.
    this is oft cited and would never work. the losing team would just foul again...indefinitely...and you would risk a turnover every time.


    "If you don't address the things you're not doing well when you're winning the winning will eventually stop."

    -David Cutcliffe

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    The Elam Ending doesn't just discourage intentional fouling, it also limits the extent to which the team with the lead is able to "take the air out the ball". The system you've described would still encourage teams with the lead to run a clock killing offense.
    Given the existence of the shot clock, a "clock killing offense" should be of minimal concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    this is oft cited and would never work. the losing team would just foul again...indefinitely...and you would risk a turnover every time.
    It seems to me that "would never work" is more than a little strong. I don't see a significant advantage for a team defending an OOB play versus one defending open play. When you add player disqualifications with a constant fouling "strategy," I wouldn't expect it to be tried all that often. It should be at least worth some testing.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    Given the existence of the shot clock, a "clock killing offense" should be of minimal concern.

    I've only watched basketball during the shot clock era. The "prevent offense" that's run by teams in order to kill the clock while protecting a lead is one of my least favorite aspects of the game. While the presence of a shot clock might diminish the need for concern regarding end of game offensive stagnation, it is still a significant drawback for many casual viewers and diehard fans.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    I've only watched basketball during the shot clock era. The "prevent offense" that's run by teams in order to kill the clock while protecting a lead is one of my least favorite aspects of the game. While the presence of a shot clock might diminish the need for concern regarding end of game offensive stagnation, it is still a significant drawback for many casual viewers and diehard fans.
    Perhaps Duke will field a jai-alai team soon.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by killerleft View Post
    Perhaps Duke will field a jai-alai team soon.

    I doubt they'll field a team but perhops they'll field a Jai Alai club...

    jailai.jpeg



    I expect that old men sworn to protect the sanctity of front yards and walk-ons will be the most vocal critics of further evaluating the expansion of the elam ending.

    https://www.kansascity.com/sports/co...233387232.html
    Last edited by subzero02; 08-04-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    I doubt they'll field a team but perhops they'll field a Jai Alai club...

    jailai.jpeg



    I expect that old men sworn to protect the sanctity of front yards and walk-ons will be the most vocal critics of further evaluating the expansion of the elam ending.

    https://www.kansascity.com/sports/co...233387232.html
    Well, the timing of putting in walk-ons would just change. If you're up 20 points with 8 minutes remaining, you put them in until four minutes and then get guys who can score back in. But I agree with Self that it's not gonna happen in college ball, but I do like it from a viewing perspective.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    The Elam Ending doesn't just discourage intentional fouling, it also limits the extent to which the team with the lead is able to "take the air out the ball". The system you've described would still encourage teams with the lead to run a clock killing offense.
    This is an answer in dire need of a question. And think of all the amazing magic memorable endings that the Elam Ending...WOULD HAVE PREVENTED!!!!!
    You think the "magic" of hitting that 7th point would come anywhere close to a buzzer beater? Not even close. Think of foul shots as the "4 foot putts" of basketball. A mental and emotional exercise that is part of close contests.
    Don't waste your time on House of Cards S6!
    -We found out Frank was critical to making anyone else in the show interesting...not a surprise...

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    I doubt they'll field a team but perhops they'll field a Jai Alai club...

    jailai.jpeg



    I expect that old men sworn to protect the sanctity of front yards and walk-ons will be the most vocal critics of further evaluating the expansion of the elam ending.

    https://www.kansascity.com/sports/co...233387232.html
    LOL, I'm 66! And I have that very beer in my fridge, which put me in mind of that sport(?). I bought it along with several other IPAs to prepare for National IPA Day, which I'm celebrating all week.

    Basketball without a timed ending? Put that one with the X-Games or 3-on-3 Tournament.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Well, the timing of putting in walk-ons would just change. If you're up 20 points with 8 minutes remaining, you put them in until four minutes and then get guys who can score back in. But I agree with Self that it's not gonna happen in college ball, but I do like it from a viewing perspective.
    Icing one's starters for 4 minutes while leaving the walk-ons to defend a 20 point lead sounds like a recipe for disaster.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK View Post
    This is an answer in dire need of a question. And think of all the amazing magic memorable endings that the Elam Ending...WOULD HAVE PREVENTED!!!!!
    You think the "magic" of hitting that 7th point would come anywhere close to a buzzer beater? Not even close. Think of foul shots as the "4 foot putts" of basketball. A mental and emotional exercise that is part of close contests.
    As you point out, the Elam Ending eliminates the possibility of ďall or nothingĒ buzzer beaters. With the Elam Ending, the drama wouldnít have been nearly as great for the Hill-to-Laettner, Austin Rivers, or Gordon Hayward shots. That being said, ďall or nothingĒ buzzer beater opportunities are not all that common. I would guess that about 90% of Duke games end with the winning team uncontestedly dribbling out the clock as the coaches shake hands. The Elam Ending makes sure every game ends with a made basket.

    I finally watched a couple Elam Ending games this weekend when I had nothing better to do than watch the TBT semifinals. Both games were close and I didnít really have a rooting interest. Based on this very limited experience, I would say that the jury is still our for me regarding the Elam Ending. On the positive side, the final minutes of each game flowed a lot better than the usual end game where one team is trying to foul immediately and the other is only trying to run out the clock. On the other hand, the game ending shots just didnít have the same drama as a true ďall or nothingĒ buzzer beater.

    My take is that the Elam Ending probably makes the ending of the average game more interesting to watch, but this is at the expense of the extreme drama of the occasional buzzer beater attempt.

    ###################

    For those interested, the TBT championship is on ESPN at 9 Eastern tonight. If you donít want to watch to see how the Elam Ending plays out, you might consider watching just to see how Jeff Gibbs (a 39 year old, 6-2, 250 pound, power forward who played D3 ball) manages be the leading rebounder and top inside presence for a team full of former Big 10 starters.

  19. #119
    Anybody watch the championship? That was the only game I watched. Pretty fun with a back and forth affair but actually the ending wasn't as dramatic with the Ohio St alumni taking control and then winning on FTs which isn't as much fun. Regardless, I like the ending personally.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    File it under "neat gimmick, but not appropriate for serious levels of competition".

    Want to fix the end of games? Fix the endless reviews.

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