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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC

    The Elam Ending - a Proposal

    I just listened to a segment of "It's Only a Game" on NPR concerning the foul fest that occurs at the end of many basketball games and a proposed fix. I know we've discussed this before, but this is a solution I haven't heard that it is going to be tried at a tournament this summer.

    The proposal is to turn the game clock off at 4 minutes to go in the game and from that point the teams play until one team reaches 7 points more than the leading team had at the 4 minute mark. I sort of like it because it means that a team has to score to win. What do you think?

    A link.
    Last edited by camion; 05-20-2017 at 07:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Correct side of the Durham/CH border
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    I just listened to a segment of "It's Only a Game" on NPR concerning the foul fest that occurs at the end of many basketball games and a proposed fix. I know we've discussed this before, but this is a solution I haven't heard before and it is going to be tried at a tournament this summer.

    The proposal is to turn the game clock off at 4 minutes to go in the game and from that point the teams play until one team reaches 7 points more than the leading team had at the 4 minute mark. I sort of like it because it means that a team has to score to win. What do you think?

    A link.
    Seems odd. The notion of a timed contest is out the window. Wouldn't it be far simpler to award the fouls shots plus possession for this type of foul? Then there is no incentive to keep fouling intentionally.
    “Coach said no 3s.” - Zion on The Block

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Seems odd. The notion of a timed contest is out the window. Wouldn't it be far simpler to award the fouls shots plus possession for this type of foul? Then there is no incentive to keep fouling intentionally.
    It is odd. The thing I like about it is that under the Elam Ending both teams would be trying to score rather than one team trying to stall and one trying to extend the clock.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    I just listened to a segment of "It's Only a Game" on NPR concerning the foul fest that occurs at the end of many basketball games and a proposed fix. I know we've discussed this before, but this is a solution I haven't heard that it is going to be tried at a tournament this summer.

    The proposal is to turn the game clock off at 4 minutes to go in the game and from that point the teams play until one team reaches 7 points more than the leading team had at the 4 minute mark. I sort of like it because it means that a team has to score to win. What do you think?

    A link.
    So under this rule we would have never seen this?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T9_pPqWfI84

    No thank you.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    I just listened to a segment of "It's Only a Game" on NPR concerning the foul fest that occurs at the end of many basketball games and a proposed fix. I know we've discussed this before, but this is a solution I haven't heard that it is going to be tried at a tournament this summer.

    The proposal is to turn the game clock off at 4 minutes to go in the game and from that point the teams play until one team reaches 7 points more than the leading team had at the 4 minute mark. I sort of like it because it means that a team has to score to win. What do you think?

    A link.
    Still chewing on it. Lessee... a team is ahead 75 to 70. Then at the first pay stoppage after the four-minute mark (three-minute in college) the game clock is turned off. (Is the play clock turned off, or does it continue?) The "game" then becomes to the first team to get to "82" -- 75 plus 7 -- with no game clock. OK, I see the attraction for games with a seven point to 12-point margin with four minutes to go, in that it gives the trailing team the chance to win by dominating the last few minutes and holding the leading team to fewer than seven points, while making up the margin.

    Hmmm... apparently Jon Mugar's "The Basketball Tournament" will try it this summer in its qualifying rounds. There is a lot of basketball played at every level -- such ideas would really benefit from test drives.

    One of Elam's main points, however, is that he has tracked lots and lots of games and foulfests, while prolonging the game, almost never work. Thus, we are agonized with fruitless delays of the play.

    What's wrong with just giving the ball back to the team that is fouled more than three or four times in last 3-4 minutes?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  6. #6
    Why even play the first 36 minutes? Why not just say the first team to 70 wins?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedag View Post
    Why even play the first 36 minutes? Why not just say the first team to 70 wins?
    We could save time and make it the first to 21 wins.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    We could save time and make it the first to 21 wins.
    Who would ever want to play such a silly version of basketball?


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Correct side of the Durham/CH border
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Who would ever want to play such a silly version of basketball?

    Works well for pickup anyway.
    “Coach said no 3s.” - Zion on The Block

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill
    Why not give the team fouled in the last two minutes the choice of shooting or taking the ball out of bounds? ( If JJ were fouled, he'd shoot. If Tissaw were fouled, we'd take it out of bounds,)
    Love, Ima

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Ima Facultiwyfe View Post
    Why not give the team fouled in the last two minutes the choice of shooting or taking the ball out of bounds? ( If JJ were fouled, he'd shoot. If Tissaw were fouled, we'd take it out of bounds,)
    Love, Ima
    Adding on to this idea...in the last two minutes if a team is fouled they get to choose anyone on their roster to shoot the free throws even someone on the bench. The only exception is if the player has fouled out. So... the team who is leading will always have their 90+ % FT shooter on the line if the other team fouls.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Who would ever want to play such a silly version of basketball?

    Jack Elam-Lawman3.jpg

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Asheville
    How about a soccer clock?
    2015 DBR Rosterbation Champion

  14. #14
    Basketball is the only sport I can think of where the incentive to deliberately commit an infraction of the rules is so high that is becomes a strategy that is not only acceptable but ubiquitous. I would support either Dr. Rosenrosen's or Ima Facultywife's proposals.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Atlanta 'burbs
    This could be solved to a great degree by the refs calling an intentional foul an intentional foul.

    What a concept!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TruBlu View Post
    This could be solved to a great degree by the refs calling an intentional foul an intentional foul.

    What a concept!
    This the truth. If you are going to call it an "intentional foul," and rule on the intent, then it becomes an impossible way to come from behind in a game.

    If you don't want to rule on the "intention" of fouling, then call it something different, like... a "malicious foul," if the defender is trying to hurt their opponent.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Atlanta 'burbs
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    This the truth. If you are going to call it an "intentional foul," and rule on the intent, then it becomes an impossible way to come from behind in a game.

    If you don't want to rule on the "intention" of fouling, then call it something different, like... a "malicious foul," if the defender is trying to hurt their opponent.
    Could call it a "Delay of game" foul, if it was to be appropriately named.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    This the truth. If you are going to call it an "intentional foul," and rule on the intent, then it becomes an impossible way to come from behind in a game.

    If you don't want to rule on the "intention" of fouling, then call it something different, like... a "malicious foul," if the defender is trying to hurt their opponent.
    There are no "intentional fouls" in the college basketball rulebook. Just flagrants. So, they're not trying to judge intent.

    I actually kinda like the proposal. Yeah, it may seem odd at first but absolutely would lead to exciting finishes without absurd foul fests at the end.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Atlanta 'burbs
    Um, maybe there should be an "intentional foul" in the rule book. After all, we are talking about changing the rulebook to get rid of those awful endings to games, aren't we?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Midlothian, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Ima Facultiwyfe View Post
    Why not give the team fouled in the last two minutes the choice of shooting or taking the ball out of bounds? ( If JJ were fouled, he'd shoot. If Tissaw were fouled, we'd take it out of bounds,)
    Love, Ima
    I like lma's idea better.

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