Duke and true road games

[devil84]

Duke/Carolina twice a year makes sense. Traditionalists might also like to play Wake and NCSU twice every year, but personally have never viewed either as a major rival and the annual Duke/Wake hoops/football pairing seems forced.

You must have become a fan after the 80s. Having gone to high school in the area, the first day of class was usually spent answering the teacher's roll call with the team you root for. Only one answer was ever appropriate, there was NEVER a second choice. The Big 4 tournament was a big deal. The ACC tournament on TV in school on Fridays was where you showed your rivalry spirit.

At Duke in the early 80s, Wake and State were definitely rivals. Those games were anticipated just about as much as the Carolina game. Carolina was THE rival, but State and Wake were not far behind. There was quite a bit of parity between the teams back then, too.

To me, football games are an important part of the rivalry. More people can attend the game, it becomes an all-day event with tailgating, and there are many fewer games in a season making each game twice as important. Looking at our schedule versus Atlantic Division teams (because we have to play all in the Coastal division each year) from 2004 through 2016: Wake (our permanent partner in the Atlantic), 13; FSU, 7; Clemson, 5; BC, 4; NCSU, 3; Syracuse, 1, and Louisville, 1. (Hmmm...that hardly seems balanced!) You'd think we were rivals with FSU and Clemson instead! Heck, we played Maryland 3 times from '04-'10. And we've played Northwestern 4 times. We've played NCCU five times. And we won't play NCSU again until 2020. Seriously. It's hard to have a rivalry when you only play a team in football four times in 17 years (since playing in '03: '08, '09, '13, '20).

The number of State fans that also cheer for Duke and/or Wake has grown (likewise Wake cheering for Duke and/or State). State fans want the Duke football rivalry back (I live in Raleigh, it's a big deal when we get to play each other again). And when my kids went to school (graduating high school in '07 and '09), one could answer the roll with multiple favorites, though it's rare to be a Carolina fan and another Big 4 fan. Per my WFU '13 son, Duke is definitely a rival and one of the few games that students care about attending.

I can see how people who began following sometime in the 90s or later would think that there isn't really a rivalry. Those of us who have been around a lot longer will respectfully disagree.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Grew up in California with Pac 8/10 sports and only knew Wake as Brian Piccolo's school before going to Duke in the early '90s. Great to see Rodney, Childress, Timmy, and the nutpuncher play over the years, but Wake and State don't move the needle as much as the pastel diploma mill for many non-native North Carolina Duke grads. Can still appreciate the schweeeet tie dyes and the finger wolf hand gestures, but creeped out by the Planter's Peanut guy and a girl wolf in a dress.

Sadly four 16 team far flung mega conferences fueled by TV $s seems inevitable. Traditional rivalries and missed classes be damned. Would much rather see a return to smaller, geographically sensible conferences with full round robin in football, double round robin in hoops, and regular season ending rivalry games. Unfortunately that pipe dream is not coming back.

At least the PAC preserved annual football games for the four CA schools despite being in different divisions, but alas no guaranteed double round robin in hoops. Balkanized mega conferences leave a lot to be desired.

[niveklaen]

I love that we added louisville, Syracuse, notre dame to the ACC. With them our schedules include more true road games against quality opponents than we had back in the 80's. It's not like they don't count because they are now in conference. Balkanized mega conferences are great.

And since when are road games better for fans than neutral games? More fans get to go to games at big venues.

[Troublemaker]

And since when are road games better for fans than neutral games? More fans get to go to games at big venues.

For the fans that attend home games, it's better. And for the fans that don't attend games and watch on TV, home-and-homes are more fun as well. (Usually; one's mileage may vary).

But I do agree that Duke tries to serve the NYC-area alumni, and that's a great thing.

[sagegrouse]

Duke was 3-6 on the road in the ACC in 2017 (4-6 overall) which was our worst ACC road record since our 0-9 (1-10 overall) road ACC record in our meltdown 1995 season under interim coach Pete Gaudet.

Although the focus in this thread is on "true road games," not just ACC road games, here is a rough summary of our ACC and overall road records since 1995. A losing road record is an atypical season for Duke. Since the 1996-97 season, it has occurred only three times in 21 years. Although the ACC was exceptionally deep this year, it was clearly an anomalous season for the Blue Devils.

Losing records:
1995 0-9 (1-10 overall)
1996 3-5 (4-7)
2003 3-5 (3-6)
2014 4-5 (4-5)
2017 3-6 (4-6)

Even records:
2005 4-4 (5-4)
2007 4-4 (5-4)
2009 4-4 (6-5)

Winning records:
1997 through 2002
2004
2006
2008
2010 through 2013
2015 and 2016

[ATSPENCE9]

Great insight from everyone. Thank you for the responses.

[COYS]

Duke was 3-6 on the road in the ACC in 2017 (4-6 overall) which was our worst ACC road record since our 0-9 (1-10 overall) road ACC record in our meltdown 1995 season under interim coach Pete Gaudet.

Although the focus in this thread is on "true road games," not just ACC road games, here is a rough summary of our ACC and overall road records since 1995. A losing road record is an atypical season for Duke. Since the 1996-97 season, it has occurred only three times in 21 years. Although the ACC was exceptionally deep this year, it was clearly an anomalous season for the Blue Devils.

Losing records:
1995 0-9 (1-10 overall)
1996 3-5 (4-7)
2003 3-5 (3-6)
2014 4-5 (4-5)
2017 3-6 (4-6)

Even records:
2005 4-4 (5-4)
2007 4-4 (5-4)
2009 4-4 (6-5)

Winning records:
1997 through 2002
2004
2006
2008
2010 through 2013
2015 and 2016

Thanks for this.

One could make a convincing argument that our road record this year had more to do with the timing of the games than anything else. @VaTech, @Louisville, and @FSU all came when our injury/suspension absences were just about at their worst. Those would have been three of our toughest road games, even if we were fully healthy. But losing key players at those moments made it extremely likely that Duke would have a tough road to haul to avoid a mediocre away-game record.

Also, our road record doesn't seem particularly predictive. For example, the 2012 Duke team went undefeated on the road, something only equaled by the '99 team in (somewhat) recent Duke history. But that team also dropped lots of home games, played poor defense, and lost in the first round of the NCAAT. Meanwhile, the 2010 team lost its two big out-of-conference match ups @Wisconsin and @Georgetown in addition to losing @GaTech and @Maryland in tight games and getting blown out by a bad NC State team in Raleigh. That same team managed to beat a very good Baylor team in a semi-away setting in the Elite Eight before defeating Butler who was playing a virtual home game for the national title.

To me, the argument for or against true road games has much less to do with preparing a team for a tough environment (Duke gets plenty of that in the ACC season and basically anytime it leaves campus save for the NYC-area) and more to do with the fun of home and home series. I with the schedule allowed for the occasional home and home with UK, KU, Zona, or UCLA. That would be super fun from the fan's perspective. But with tournaments like the Champions Classic virtually guaranteeing a few big-time opponents in the preseason and with the long ACC schedule, I'm resigned to the fact that we are unlikely to see those types of home and homes come back anytime soon

[Nugget]

To me, the argument for or against true road games has much less to do with preparing a team for a tough environment (Duke gets plenty of that in the ACC season and basically anytime it leaves campus save for the NYC-area) and more to do with the fun of home and home series. I with the schedule allowed for the occasional home and home with UK, KU, Zona, or UCLA. That would be super fun from the fan's perspective. But with tournaments like the Champions Classic virtually guaranteeing a few big-time opponents in the preseason and with the long ACC schedule, I'm resigned to the fact that we are unlikely to see those types of home and homes come back anytime soon

I've long been a proponent of the idea that we should have at least 1 high profile home and home series going like Coach K was doing it in the 80s and 90s, but like you are resigned to the fact he just isn't going to do it. And, I believe you are right that really the best reason for doing so is just that those games are more fun.

Beyond it being more "fun," the only substantive benefit I could see of an extra "true road" game in the pre-season is that it might make us slightly more ready for the beginning of the ACC. I haven't gone back to check (and, I'm sure it oversimplifies the causation), but I do "feel" like we've had a harder time in the first ACC road game of the year in the past decade with Coach K choosing not to play them in the pre-season than we did in the earlier time period. But, maybe I'm making that up.

The one other thing I would add that I completely reject as a reason for playing "neutral" site games is the notion that they are "better preparation" for the ACC and NCAA tournament than playing true road games. The "neutral site" games Duke plays in NY and elsewhere (other than the Champions Classic) are almost always virtual home games for Duke. Whereas, "neutral site" games in the NCAA tournament are almost always virtual road games for Duke.

[NSDukeFan]

I've long been a proponent of the idea that we should have at least 1 high profile home and home series going like Coach K was doing it in the 80s and 90s, but like you are resigned to the fact he just isn't going to do it. And, I believe you are right that really the best reason for doing so is just that those games are more fun.

Beyond it being more "fun," the only substantive benefit I could see of an extra "true road" game in the pre-season is that it might make us slightly more ready for the beginning of the ACC. I haven't gone back to check (and, I'm sure it oversimplifies the causation), but I do "feel" like we've had a harder time in the first ACC road game of the year in the past decade with Coach K choosing not to play them in the pre-season than we did in the earlier time period. But, maybe I'm making that up.

The one other thing I would add that I completely reject as a reason for playing "neutral" site games is the notion that they are "better preparation" for the ACC and NCAA tournament than playing true road games. The "neutral site" games Duke plays in NY and elsewhere (other than the Champions Classic) are almost always virtual home games for Duke. Whereas, "neutral site" games in the NCAA tournament are almost always virtual road games for Duke.

I agree with the fun and agree with the unscientific early road challenges during ACC play. It seems many years have a fretting period on the board where we wait to see if that year's team will learn how to win on the road and learn to win big games. Every team is different, so you never know, but this coach K guy always seems to get his team to pull out these big wins year after year. It sure is fun.

[UrinalCake]

I think I read that we are starting a home and home with St. John's. Not really a top team any more, but it's something. Although I don't know if they'll play in their true home arena or if the games will be in MSG, making it more of a neutral site.

As others have said, we played road games against the top 9 teams in the ACC this season. We had plenty of experience playing in hostile environments. And the unbalanced ACC schedule is always going to have us playing road games against the better teams, because it brings in more revenue.

Also, the ACC will soon be expanding their conference season to 20 games. I don't remember if it's this coming season or next. So with two fewer OOC games, it's even more unlikely that K will schedule a true road game. We need to have a handful of cupcake games at home to get the team acclimated, we have the B10/ACC Challenge game, and we'll have two neutral site games against big opponents in NY, NJ or Chicago which will bring in money and give the alumni base a chance to see the team.