5 Second Call

[BD80]

I am still amazed at the 5 second call on Grayson at the end of the first half of the game at carolina.

I understand refs missing calls in the heat of action, there is a lot going on that they are supposed to keep track of, including 10 very large athletes moving quickly and changing directions abruptly and engaging in physical contact from toes to fingertips 10 feet in the air.

The ref on the inbounds play is to count to 5, and typically extends his arm to count the seconds. As the 5 count nears, he focuses on the ball. That Is it! Count to 5 and see if the ball is inbounded!

This ref (can anyone identify which one?) seemed determined to call the turnover! His 5 count was hurried (for amusement, see how slow his count is going for the heels on the resulting inbound), but worse, HE MAKES THE CALL BEFORE HIS ARM REACHES THE END OF THE 5 COUNT!

The ref sees Grayson inbounding the ball, and blows the whistle before his count is finished. He knows that if he waits for the end of the count, the ball will be properly inbounded (a hand-off) so he blows it early.

Even Bilas felt the count was quick - I rest my case.

[kshepinthehouse]

I am still amazed at the 5 second call on Grayson at the end of the first half of the game at carolina.

I understand refs missing calls in the heat of action, there is a lot going on that they are supposed to keep track of, including 10 very large athletes moving quickly and changing directions abruptly and engaging in physical contact from toes to fingertips 10 feet in the air.

The ref on the inbounds play is to count to 5, and typically extends his arm to count the seconds. As the 5 count nears, he focuses on the ball. That Is it! Count to 5 and see if the ball is inbounded!

This ref (can anyone identify which one?) seemed determined to call the turnover! His 5 count was hurried (for amusement, see how slow his count is going for the heels on the resulting inbound), but worse, HE MAKES THE CALL BEFORE HIS ARM REACHES THE END OF THE 5 COUNT!

The ref sees Grayson inbounding the ball, and blows the whistle before his count is finished. He knows that if he waits for the end of the count, the ball will be properly inbounded (a hand-off) so he blows it early.

Even Bilas felt the count was quick - I rest my case.

The one you're talking about was close. I went back and counted and didn't have much of a problem with it. There was one before where Matt Jones was inbounding the ball that probably should've been called but wasn't. So I'm okay with 1/2 of those being called.

[tbyers11]

I am still amazed at the 5 second call on Grayson at the end of the first half of the game at carolina.

I understand refs missing calls in the heat of action, there is a lot going on that they are supposed to keep track of, including 10 very large athletes moving quickly and changing directions abruptly and engaging in physical contact from toes to fingertips 10 feet in the air.

The ref on the inbounds play is to count to 5, and typically extends his arm to count the seconds. As the 5 count nears, he focuses on the ball. That Is it! Count to 5 and see if the ball is inbounded!

This ref (can anyone identify which one?) seemed determined to call the turnover! His 5 count was hurried (for amusement, see how slow his count is going for the heels on the resulting inbound), but worse, HE MAKES THE CALL BEFORE HIS ARM REACHES THE END OF THE 5 COUNT!

The ref sees Grayson inbounding the ball, and blows the whistle before his count is finished. He knows that if he waits for the end of the count, the ball will be properly inbounded (a hand-off) so he blows it early.

Even Bilas felt the count was quick - I rest my case.

I texted my friend after it happened that it was a makeup 5 second call from the previous time we tried to inbound the ball. I thought the one before it was very close to 5 seconds and could even have been called. Totally agree that the one that was called didn't seem close to 5 and that the ref was pre-determined to call it.

[BD80]

The one you're talking about was close. I went back and counted and didn't have much of a problem with it. There was one before where Matt Jones was inbounding the ball that probably should've been called but wasn't. So I'm okay with 1/2 of those being called.

So you're saying it was a make-up call?

The one called was less than 5 seconds (even if you don't have a problem - admit it was less than 5 seconds), AND BEFORE THE END OF THE REF'S OWN COUNT!

[devildeac]

Someone in chat timed ours at 4.18 seconds. Higher unc/acc ref math. And it sure seemed like they got 6+ seconds on one of their inbounds plays near the end of the game just before we just missed a tip/steal.

[Faison1]

So you're saying it was a make-up call?

The one called was less than 5 seconds (even if you don't have a problem - admit it was less than 5 seconds), AND BEFORE THE END OF THE REF'S OWN COUNT!

The call I was more surprised about was Tatum's Offensive Foul with about 2 mins left. He barely extended his arm on that drive.

Look, I don't want to get into a ref bashing thread here, but man, that one was bad. I didn't hear Bilas say much about it either.

Having said all that, we definitely lost our composure with about 3 mins to go. Talk about finishing weak...

However, the vision that stands out most to me was watching a little old lady scream and boo at Grayson while he was passing the ball in from the sidelines. Aren't people supposed to mature at some age?

At Cameron, I get it...it's students who surround the floor...students are expected to be crass and immature...not little old ladies.

[Bob Green]

So you're saying it was a make-up call?

In my opinion, it was a make-up call.

[kmspeaks]

In my opinion, it was a make-up call.

Of course we'll never know what was going through the ref's mind but if it was a make-up call then that's even worse. Officials are taught NOT to do that. Their job is to call what they see, not do their best to make sure things even out over the course of a game.

[DangerDevil]

Look, I don't want to get into a ref bashing thread here, but man, that one was bad. I didn't hear Bilas say much about it either.

Bilas actually thought that a few calls were so bad, that he actually went out of character and out of his way to point out that he disagreed with a few calls against us.

[Turk]

Meh. Refs were erratic, and Duke got a couple calls too. The refs didn't decide the game; Carolina was just a bit better. Enough twerping. Next play.

[kshepinthehouse]

The call I was more surprised about was Tatum's Offensive Foul with about 2 mins left. He barely extended his arm on that drive.

Look, I don't want to get into a ref bashing thread here, but man, that one was bad. I didn't hear Bilas say much about it either.

Having said all that, we definitely lost our composure with about 3 mins to go. Talk about finishing weak...

However, the vision that stands out most to me was watching a little old lady scream and boo at Grayson while he was passing the ball in from the sidelines. Aren't people supposed to mature at some age?

At Cameron, I get it...it's students who surround the floor...students are expected to be crass and immature...not little old ladies.

Duke played so well offensively...until the last couple of minutes. This team doesn't close as well as Duke teams of the past. If they did, we would probably have 4-5 more wins.

[Bob Green]

Of course we'll never know what was going through the ref's mind but if it was a make-up call then that's even worse. Officials are taught NOT to do that. Their job is to call what they see, not do their best to make sure things even out over the course of a game.

I do not disagree with anything you've stated, but I still believe it was a make-up call because it wasn't a 5 seconds violation and it came soon after Duke obviously took more than 5 seconds to inbound the ball.

[Elge13]

T


"However, the vision that stands out most to me was watching a little old lady scream and boo at Grayson while he was passing the ball in from the sidelines. Aren't people supposed to mature at some age?

At Cameron, I get it...it's students who surround the floor...students are expected to be crass and immature...not little old ladies.

"


This what concerns me. Hate watching games at UNC because the "adults" behave so poorly. There were other adults that I saw acting out. I just do not get it. These players are young adults/students. This is not the NBA. UNC fans are not the only ones, but they are consistent. I know that I could be biased, but I have not seen adults at Cameron acting like this.

As for the call, as well as others-did not lose the game. Agree with others-Duke just did not finish strong. IMHO-they looked tired.

[budwom]

I do not disagree with anything you've stated, but I still believe it was a make-up call because it wasn't a 5 seconds violation and it came soon after Duke obviously took more than 5 seconds to inbound the ball.

that's how I saw it, too.

[-bdbd]

The call I was more surprised about was Tatum's Offensive Foul with about 2 mins left. He barely extended his arm on that drive.

Look, I don't want to get into a ref bashing thread here, but man, that one was bad. I didn't hear Bilas say much about it either.

Having said all that, we definitely lost our composure with about 3 mins to go. Talk about finishing weak...

However, the vision that stands out most to me was watching a little old lady scream and boo at Grayson while he was passing the ball in from the sidelines. Aren't people supposed to mature at some age?

At Cameron, I get it...it's students who surround the floor...students are expected to be crass and immature...not little old ladies.

The five seconds call was clearly a make-up for something. I timed it at about 4.3 seconds myself, but they usually give about 6 or even 7 seconds anyway. My guess is that someone, such as ole Roy, said something after the earlier one. So call it "home court advantage." But the timing was just awful, right at the end of the half like that (momentum impact). But refs most certainly DO have make-up calls. [Probably the most blatant example I ever saw was in our favor... About 20 years ago, in the NCAAT, Duke playing vs MSU, and one of our bigs makes a dunk, but the rim snapping back caused the net to catch the ball which then come back UP thru and out of the basket. The whistle is blown, the refs confer and then meet with both HCs, where you can lip-read one ref telling K, "...will make it up to you." Then it is announced that it was NO BASKET and it is a MSU ball. On the next possession, ten seconds in, the same ref calls a rediculous touch foul against one of the MSU bigs. The game went in from there and eVeryone understood.].

The "charge" on Tatum was just a bad call, as the ref was watching the defender who really sold the Tatum supposed push-off. Honestly, when the whistle initially blew my reaction was "yes!", thinking it was on the D for the initial contact.

The one that really puzzled me was the "double foul" called as Grayson made a drive at the top of the key. It effectively cost us a possession. In slow motion the defender clearly has his hand against GA's mid-section, which should have been the foul, but then GA's elbow makes contact with defender's head as he crosses over - hence the double-foul. But the "first foul" is supposed to be the only one called, and anything subsequent is washed out, in effect because the initial foul may have "caused" any subsequent contact, and play stops. Yet after both sides got two FTs, UNC got possession... ('was in a sports bar, so had no audio of any explanation).

Overall the reffing didn't favor Duke by any stretch, but that comes with playing in front of 23K rabid Duke haters. And for every disgruntled Duke fan, you'll also have a dusgruntled Kerlina one pointing to the disparity in free throws...

[Bob Green]

The one that really puzzled me was the "double foul" called as Grayson made a drive at the top of the key. It effectively cost us a possession. In slow motion the defender clearly has his hand against his mid-section, which should have been the foul, but then GA's elbow makes contact with defender's head as he crosses over - hence the double-foul. But the "first foul" is supposed to be the only one called, and anything subsequent is washed out, in effect because the initial foul may have "caused" any subsequent contact, and play stops. Yet after both sides got two FTs, UNC was given possession... (I was in a sports bar, so had no audio of any explanation.).

Grayson Allen was assessed a dead ball technical foul.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...andon-robinson

[-bdbd]

Grayson Allen was assessed a dead ball technical foul.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...andon-robinson

Thanks. But my point was that normally, and a play with "multiple" fouls, only the FIRST one counts. It has been explained to be by a college ref that you can't ASSUME what would have happened subsequent to the first foul. In this case, can't argue that the hand-check didn't affect the subsequent elbow from Allen.

[Bob Green]

Thanks. But my point was that normally, and a play with "multiple" fouls, only the FIRST one counts. It has been explained to be by a college ref that you can't ASSUME what would have happened subsequent to the first foul. In this case, can't argue that the hand-check didn't affect the subsequent elbow from Allen.

The difference between what you are describing and what the refs called centers around the term "a basketball play." The refs determined Grayson Allen did not make a basketball play after being fouled by Robinson, he elbowed Robinson in the head. Personally, I believe the elbow was incidental but the refs assessed a technical foul so they obviously disagree with my interpretation of the event.

[uh_no]

Thanks. But my point was that normally, and a play with "multiple" fouls, only the FIRST one counts. It has been explained to be by a college ref that you can't ASSUME what would have happened subsequent to the first foul. In this case, can't argue that the hand-check didn't affect the subsequent elbow from Allen.

given that elbow to the face DURING play is an automatic flagrant, regardless of intent, i can't say I'm that upset about this one. personally, i thought the foul on ga caused what would have maybe been a push off into an elbow to the face, the precedent is that you always have to be aware of where your elbows are going. Grayson failed at that here.

obviously Grayson didn't mean to hit him in the face, but by extending his elbow at all, he put himself at risk for something happening, and it did. i can't really fault the refs that much for this one.

[gofurman]

Of course we'll never know what was going through the ref's mind but if it was a make-up call then that's even worse. Officials are taught NOT to do that. Their job is to call what they see, not do their best to make sure things even out over the course of a game.

RIGHT. Officials are taught specifically NOT to do make up calls - why? Because to move up in officiating.. (and move up in $$$) .. IE, SoCon to ACC to NCAA tourney etc you are measured on the % of calls that are correct. I once heard an official talk about this. If you practice make-up calls you have now gone from one bad call to two.

SO I have never understood 'make up calls'. Its a direct way to sabotage your officiating career. Strange.