MBB: Miami 55, Duke 50 Post Game Thread

[Devilsforlife]

Why is Bolden being called "Bolton"? He's not from England, as far as I know.

[Kfanarmy]

Why is Bolden being called "Bolton"? He's not from England, as far as I know.

Recency bias? Mea Culpa...inattention to detail.

[Fish80]

Why is Bolden being called "Bolton"? He's not from England, as far as I know.

Well I never been to England
But I kinda like the Beatles

[Kfanarmy]

I thought I'd add that if we had a healthy Grayson Allen, both the Syracuse and Miami games would've likely been hard-fought wins. The team would now likely be 12-4 after starting the ACC season poorly, and we would be on an extended win streak.
In that case I think the tenor of these discussions would be considerably different.

We don't have a lot of leeway, but if we can get people healthy we are going to be a tough out.

True, but GA seems to be the only guy on the team who has an extra "refuse to lose" gear, and he is injured. They will be a difficult out, but that may happen anywhere, game one to game six.

[Owen Meany]

I've been around here 20+ years now, and I've always been clear I have great respect for coach K.
That said, there is nothing wrong with challenging his handling of Giles and Bolton this season. It's what fans do.


Roy got both Brice and McAdoo to the league, and Hicks will get a shot as well. They were not NBA talents when they arrived at UNC, I don't care what they were rated. Roy developed Brice into a first round selection, his improvement was steady each year. I thought McAdoo left too early and would have been an even better player with another year to work on his fundamentals, and he'd have been a much better NBA player than he has been.
.

Some posters disagree with responding to Wheat's posts because it can hi-jack threads. Others think its important to respond and offer a defense of the team/coaches, etc. I am in the latter camp, so please excuse me if you are not.



Wheat,

Your post is part of an on-going critique of Duke, its usage of big men, etc. while glossing over UNC's own deficiencies.



UNC currently has the highest rated senior and 2 highest rated juniors remaining in all of college basketball. If I were a UNC fan I would avoid the subject of player usage/development.



Giles is not close to the player he was before after missing 2 of the last 3 years with major knee injuries. Some opposing fans were so concerned for his well-being they suggested he should not play this year. I think its disingenuous to simply state that Coach K isn't getting touches for NBA talent - what's up with that?



You give Williams credit for getting Johnson (ranked 40 RSCI) drafted 25th. Miles Plumlee (who's post-Duke commitment bump moved him from unranked to 81) - was drafted 26th - how about some kudos?



You claim Williams got McAdoo to the league. Seriously? He was touted as a likely top 5 pick out of high school but went undrafted after seeing his draft stock drop every single year he was at UNC.

After his freshman year...
James Michael McAdoo returning ESPN
McAdoo's parents, Janet and Ronnie, said during a phone interview Thursday that the information they, and UNC's coaching staff, gathered confirmed James Michael likely would have been a lottery pick.

Zeller, McAdoo among impact sophomores returning next season
Had He Left: McAdoo might have been drafted ahead of John Henson or Tyler Zeller.
He's the league's best pro prospect for 2013.


Are you suggesting that Roy Williams had McAdoo turn down a lottery selection and return for his sophomore year when he was not an NBA talent? I would think if this was the case he would have told McAdoo to take the money and run since returning would only hurt him.



After McAdoo's senior year...
Will be questions as to lack of skill progression over his time in college, never managed to get his playing production and efficiency close to where it was projected with his combination of size, athleticism and basketball pedigree ...



I could go on because its not that difficult to find deficiencies with any team you choose to focus on. But, if you want to be point out the flaws of other teams, you should at least acknowledge those of your own.

[jv001]

I've seen teams use picks to get guys open against the zone. Did we try that in the last game or Cuse game? It seemed we just passed the ball around for the majority of the shot clock and then shot a 3. Just wondering. Help, Trouble. GoDuke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat,

Your post is part of an on-going critique of Duke, its usage of big men, etc. while glossing over UNC's own deficiencies.



UNC currently has the highest rated senior and 2 highest rated juniors remaining in all of college basketball. If I were a UNC fan I would avoid the subject of player usage/development.

Who cares about ratings? Can't you look at those players? That "highest rated senior" was way overrated as a player based only on his athleticism. He's gotten better every year and when he gets his NBA shot, he'll be prepared. One of those Juniors still around has been battling injuries his whole career, the other still around is about to become the ACC POY and in the discussion for NPOY. Neither were anywhere close to the level of play we now see as a fresh/soph, they have developed greatly.

Giles is not close to the player he was before after missing 2 of the last 3 years with major knee injuries. Some opposing fans were so concerned for his well-being they suggested he should not play this year. I think its disingenuous to simply state that Coach K isn't getting touches for NBA talent - what's up with that?

i just don't understand coach K's logic with how he uses Giles and Bolden, and I question what he's doing with them. Somebody please explain it to me? If Roy sat those two "highly rated players", or didn't use their talent effectively, I can't imagine the criticism he'd receive here.


You give Williams credit for getting Johnson (ranked 40 RSCI) drafted 25th. Miles Plumlee (who's post-Duke commitment bump moved him from unranked to 81) - was drafted 26th - how about some kudos?

Kudos.

You claim Williams got McAdoo to the league. Seriously? He was touted as a likely top 5 pick out of high school but went undrafted after seeing his draft stock drop every single year he was at UNC.

After his freshman year...
James Michael McAdoo returning ESPN
McAdoo's parents, Janet and Ronnie, said during a phone interview Thursday that the information they, and UNC's coaching staff, gathered confirmed James Michael likely would have been a lottery pick.

Zeller, McAdoo among impact sophomores returning next season
Had He Left: McAdoo might have been drafted ahead of John Henson or Tyler Zeller.
He's the league's best pro prospect for 2013.


Are you suggesting that Roy Williams had McAdoo turn down a lottery selection and return for his sophomore year when he was not an NBA talent? I would think if this was the case he would have told McAdoo to take the money and run since returning would only hurt him.

He had talent, I should correct that, but I'm suggesting McAdoo was not ready for the NBA and would have benefited by more coaching form Roy. It would have probably helped him to stick in the league. The NBA doesn't care about the player when they find out the potential doesn't translate into play. When they do find out they misjudge you, you're out the next year and they're off to the next guy. It's a tough business. That said, sure, he probably should have left, locked in the money, if he was going to be lottery as a freshman, but that was his call.



I could go on because its not that difficult to find deficiencies with any team you choose to focus on. But, if you want to be point out the flaws of other teams, you should at least acknowledge those of your own.

UNC has plenty of flaws, I can agree on that. If you want to discuss UNC, I'd be all in, and will always give my honest opinion. But I'm not going to start that thread here.

[Indoor66]

UNC has plenty of flaws, I can agree on that. If you want to discuss UNC, I'd be all in, and will always give my honest opinion. But I'm not going to start that thread here.

Please don't. 😎

[weezie]

I've seen teams use picks to get guys open against the zone. Did we try that in the last game or Cuse game? It seemed we just passed the ball around for the majority of the shot clock and then shot a 3. Just wondering. Help, Trouble. GoDuke!

Must be the curse of the wahoo.

[FerryFor50]

UNC has plenty of flaws, I can agree on that. If you want to discuss UNC, I'd be all in, and will always give my honest opinion. But I'm not going to start that thread here.

Re: Giles and Bolden...

The amount of playing time has a variety of reasons. Giles has been seeing more and more minutes lately, but coming off a major knee surgery and subsequent minor surgery, K is bringing him along slowly. This is for his benefit, as well as Duke's.

Bolden's playing time has also been derailed by injury (word was he was on track to start from day one before he got hurt). But Bolden is also limited by foul trouble, matchups and a logjam at the 5.

Both Giles and Bolden have to play behind Jefferson, and we all know how K trusts in his seniors, especially ones that call out defensive assignments.

On offense, the reason Bolden and Giles don't get a ton of touches in the post likely have to do with how they look in the post in practice, as well as how ineffective they've been in the post (Bolden especially) with the limited touches they've received. Remember, Jahlil was a pure post player and the offense ran through him predominantly. That was no accident; Jah was the best option on offense every time.

Combine that with how the entire season has gone mostly sideways with injuries and continuity problems and the lack of a true PG and that's why you don't see Bolden and Giles used in a classic post. The offense is dribble/drive and has reverted a bit to living by the three. I just don't think the team has an offensive identity, which has been good and bad at times. Good because any one of the 3-4 offensive threats can go off at any given time. Bad because, sometimes, they can't figure out who's supposed to go off.

[Indoor66]

Re: Giles and Bolden...

The amount of playing time has a variety of reasons. Giles has been seeing more and more minutes lately, but coming off a major knee surgery and subsequent minor surgery, K is bringing him along slowly. This is for his benefit, as well as Duke's.

Bolden's playing time has also been derailed by injury (word was he was on track to start from day one before he got hurt). But Bolden is also limited by foul trouble, matchups and a logjam at the 5.

Both Giles and Bolden have to play behind Jefferson, and we all know how K trusts in his seniors, especially ones that call out defensive assignments.

On offense, the reason Bolden and Giles don't get a ton of touches in the post likely have to do with how they look in the post in practice, as well as how ineffective they've been in the post (Bolden especially) with the limited touches they've received. Remember, Jahlil was a pure post player and the offense ran through him predominantly. That was no accident; Jah was the best option on offense every time.

Combine that with how the entire season has gone mostly sideways with injuries and continuity problems and the lack of a true PG and that's why you don't see Bolden and Giles used in a classic post. The offense is dribble/drive and has reverted a bit to living by the three. I just don't think the team has an offensive identity, which has been good and bad at times. Good because any one of the 3-4 offensive threats can go off at any given time. Bad because, sometimes, they can't figure out who's supposed to go off.

To me this is the key point. Injury has derailed every scheme. It is difficult to have continuity in an offense or a defense when the parts keep changing (whether by personnel availability or by personnel physical limitations.) It has to be total frustrating to all involved with the team. Who can show up today?

[kAzE]

To me this is the key point. Injury has derailed every scheme. It is difficult to have continuity in an offense or a defense when the parts keep changing (whether by personnel availability or by personnel physical limitations.) It has to be total frustrating to all involved with the team. Who can show up today?

Really good point. Earlier in the year, before Amile hurt his foot, we were able to feed him in the post, and he could either find a way to score or draw enough help to find an open shooter or cutter. Since the injury, his post scoring has gone down the toilet, and on offense, he's become basically a dump off/put back guy only. He's had some chances, but a ridiculous number of his shots have rolled around the rim and missed lately. He still doesn't look right to me.

Grayson when healthy is about as unstoppable as a college guard gets, but he REALLY tore up his ankle against Clemson. I'm not sure if anyone else really saw the injury happen, but on the first replay of it, I thought he snapped his ankle in two. It looked gruesome, and I'm not surprised at all that he's had the worst stretch of games in his career in the 4 games before Miami.

This season has been a roller coaster of injuries non stop. Will we manage to all get healthy at the same time? If we do, we can still win the national championship. I still believe we can do it.

[FerryFor50]

Really good point. Earlier in the year, before Amile hurt his foot, we were able to feed him in the post, and he could either find a way to score or draw enough help to find an open shooter or cutter. Since the injury, his post scoring has gone down the toilet, and on offense, he's become basically a dump off/put back guy only. He's had some chances, but a ridiculous number of his shots have rolled around the rim and missed lately. He still doesn't look right to me.

Grayson when healthy is about as unstoppable as a college guard gets, but he REALLY tore up his ankle against Clemson. I'm not sure if anyone else really saw the injury happen, but on the first replay of it, I thought he snapped his ankle in two. It looked gruesome, and I'm not surprised at all that he's had the worst stretch of games in his career in the 4 games before Miami.

This season has been a roller coaster of injuries non stop. Will we manage to all get healthy at the same time? If we do, we can still win the national championship. I still believe we can do it.

Having badly sprained my ankle several times, I couldn't believe he played less than a week later. Modern sports medicine is crazy.

[CDu]

Re: Giles and Bolden...

The amount of playing time has a variety of reasons. Giles has been seeing more and more minutes lately, but coming off a major knee surgery and subsequent minor surgery, K is bringing him along slowly. This is for his benefit, as well as Duke's.

Bolden's playing time has also been derailed by injury (word was he was on track to start from day one before he got hurt). But Bolden is also limited by foul trouble, matchups and a logjam at the 5.

Both Giles and Bolden have to play behind Jefferson, and we all know how K trusts in his seniors, especially ones that call out defensive assignments.

On offense, the reason Bolden and Giles don't get a ton of touches in the post likely have to do with how they look in the post in practice, as well as how ineffective they've been in the post (Bolden especially) with the limited touches they've received. Remember, Jahlil was a pure post player and the offense ran through him predominantly. That was no accident; Jah was the best option on offense every time.

Combine that with how the entire season has gone mostly sideways with injuries and continuity problems and the lack of a true PG and that's why you don't see Bolden and Giles used in a classic post. The offense is dribble/drive and has reverted a bit to living by the three. I just don't think the team has an offensive identity, which has been good and bad at times. Good because any one of the 3-4 offensive threats can go off at any given time. Bad because, sometimes, they can't figure out who's supposed to go off.

I completely agree on Giles, but I don't know how much (if any) stock to put into the bolded part above for Bolden. I mean, we were told that Marshall Plumlee - who played just 50 minutes as a redshirt freshman a year later and with fewer bodies in front of him - was among the top 6 players prior to his injury as a true freshman. We were also told during Alex Murphy's true freshman year that he was possibly a 4-year starter. We were told by some that Seth Curry was the best player in practice on the 2010 team. Coach K seems to have a habit of talking up players who aren't available or who have been limited by injury. So I suspect this is true with the Bolden point bolded above. I think the main reason Bolden doesn't play is because he is the #3 center on the team, and Coach K doesn't like to play 3 deep at center unless absolutely forced to do so (by injury or foul trouble).

As for Giles, he is doing basically exactly what Tony Bradley is doing right now. Bradley averages 19.9 points and 14.4 rebounds per 40 minutes while shooting 56.0% from the field. Giles averages 15.3 points and 13.9 rebounds per 40 minutes while shootin 56.7% from the field. Considering differences in pace of play between UNC and Duke, that's basically a wash. And considering that Giles hadn't played basketball for much of the last two years due to the ACL tears and missed all of this past summer and fall with a minor procedure on his knee, that sounds about right that he's only on par with another highly-touted freshman big.

[FerryFor50]

I completely agree on Giles, but I don't know how much (if any) stock to put into the bolded part above for Bolden. I mean, we were told that Marshall Plumlee - who played just 50 minutes as a redshirt freshman a year later and with fewer bodies in front of him - was among the top 6 players prior to his injury as a true freshman. We were also told during Alex Murphy's true freshman year that he was possibly a 4-year starter. We were told by some that Seth Curry was the best player in practice on the 2010 team. Coach K seems to have a habit of talking up players who aren't available or who have been limited by injury. So I suspect this is true with the Bolden point bolded above. I think the main reason Bolden doesn't play is because he is the #3 center on the team, and Coach K doesn't like to play 3 deep at center unless absolutely forced to do so (by injury or foul trouble).

Can't dispute that. I was just parroting the company line.

[CDu]

Can't dispute that. I was just parroting the company line.

And to be fair, past history isn't necessarily indicative of current results. So it's certainly possible that Bolden was looking like a stud in practice. Of course, that was practice without Giles, for what it is worth.

And when we brought Giles back, we did try starting him alongside Jefferson and Tatum. It wasn't until we played and struggled with the two-big lineups that we scrapped it quickly and went to Tatum at the 4. So I guess it is possible that the staff envisioned Bolden as filling the Giles role until Giles returned, and that they just didn't realize from practice (hard to simulate how things will work until live competition) that Tatum didn't work best/well at the 3 along with two interior-oriented bigs. I might even be sold on this line of thinking.

So I guess there are lots of possibilities to explain the company line, ranging from "it's true" to "it's true but only on a technicality" to "it's just coachspeak". We'll never know.

The long and short of it is that Giles appears to be playing about how we'd expect for a big shaking off years of rust from 3 (2 major, 1 minor) knee procedures over the last few years. Given that we have an All-ACC caliber 5th year senior in front of him, his production is right in line with that of another McDonald's big man from this class. And Bolden's stats make sense when you combine his injury with the fact that there are two guys in front of him at his position.

[FerryFor50]

And to be fair, past history isn't necessarily indicative of current results. So it's certainly possible that Bolden was looking like a stud in practice. Of course, that was practice without Giles, for what it is worth.

And when we brought Giles back, we did try starting him alongside Jefferson and Tatum. It wasn't until we played and struggled with the two-big lineups that we scrapped it quickly and went to Tatum at the 4. So I guess it is possible that the staff envisioned Bolden as filling the Giles role until Giles returned, and that they just didn't realize from practice (hard to simulate how things will work until live competition) that Tatum didn't work best/well at the 3 along with two interior-oriented bigs. I might even be sold on this line of thinking.

So I guess there are lots of possibilities to explain the company line, ranging from "it's true" to "it's true but only on a technicality" to "it's just coachspeak". We'll never know.

The long and short of it is that Giles appears to be playing about how we'd expect for a big shaking off years of rust from 3 (2 major, 1 minor) knee procedures over the last few years. Given that we have an All-ACC caliber 5th year senior in front of him, his production is right in line with that of another McDonald's big man from this class. And Bolden's stats make sense when you combine his injury with the fact that there are two guys in front of him at his position.

To expound on your points...

A lot of the issues with playing 2 bigs in college is that most college teams are smaller in general and don't put a classic 4 and 5 on the court. Plus, with Duke's commitment to switching on defense, you end up with a slow footed 4 on a fast guard, which does two things:

- Lets the guard penetrate easier
- takes one of your two rim protectors/rebounders out of position to protect the rim or rebound

Essentially, on defense in Duke's system, 2 bigs become one big in a lot of cases. Why have 2 big guys in when one of them is always getting blown by or committing bad fouls?

Then, on offense, you clog the lane with two bigs (since none of the Duke bigs have shown any semblance of outside shooting) and that eliminates driving lanes. Then you resort to long twos and threes.

Since Bolden and Jefferson are more space-eaters right now than freak athletes, they're limited to what contributions they can provide. For example, neither is going to catch a lop pass and flush it down behind a defense. Neither is going to get a putback slam. Neither is going to sky over the defense to grab an opportunistic offensive board - Giles is.

So it's a given that Giles is going to play, just based on sheer athletic ability, raw talent and length. The main issue with Giles is "how long can he play in a game due to injury recovery, wind, foul trouble, effectiveness, etc."

The minutes discussion at the 4/5 to me, really comes down to Tatum/Jefferson/Bolden.

- Bolden will never see time at the 4. Jefferson will, because he's more mobile and better overall on defense because of his experience.
- Tatum sees most of the time at the 4 because, as you said, he's a matchup nightmare. Big enough (in college, at least) to bang inside, rebound, alter/block shots, but able to handle the ball, pass and shoot. His presence completely alters the effectiveness of Duke on both ends.
- Jefferson plays over Bolden because he's better overall right now. Bolden is stronger and bigger and feels more like a natural 5, but he's a project on offense. He's solid on rim protection and great on hedges, but commits dumb fouls and is susceptible to driving guards. That's not a great attribute in Duke's system.

Bolden is the odd man out, for now. Only way he plays is if Jefferson gets into foul trouble, is limited by injury or we see a team with a huge frontcourt.

Hopefully, Bolden sticks around for next season, because I'd love to see him develop, but he might still be projected as a first rounder when the workouts happen and would be dumb to stay.

[ikiru36]

I completely agree on Giles, but I don't know how much (if any) stock to put into the bolded part above for Bolden. I mean, we were told that Marshall Plumlee - who played just 50 minutes as a redshirt freshman a year later and with fewer bodies in front of him - was among the top 6 players prior to his injury as a true freshman. We were also told during Alex Murphy's true freshman year that he was possibly a 4-year starter. We were told by some that Seth Curry was the best player in practice on the 2010 team. Coach K seems to have a habit of talking up players who aren't available or who have been limited by injury. So I suspect this is true with the Bolden point bolded above. I think the main reason Bolden doesn't play is because he is the #3 center on the team, and Coach K doesn't like to play 3 deep at center unless absolutely forced to do so (by injury or foul trouble).

As for Giles, he is doing basically exactly what Tony Bradley is doing right now. Bradley averages 19.9 points and 14.4 rebounds per 40 minutes while shooting 56.0% from the field. Giles averages 15.3 points and 13.9 rebounds per 40 minutes while shootin 56.7% from the field. Considering differences in pace of play between UNC and Duke, that's basically a wash. And considering that Giles hadn't played basketball for much of the last two years due to the ACL tears and missed all of this past summer and fall with a minor procedure on his knee, that sounds about right that he's only on par with another highly-touted freshman big.

CDu, unfortunately no-one knows what would have happened had Marques stayed healthy. Back when Bolden was being discussed as a potential significant piece of the team, he actually started a game, played 25 minutes and had a double-double with 5 blocks. While it is a major caveat that this was the 1st exhibition game of the season, it tends to support that there was sincere belief that he might contribute and that he was demonstrating that possibility in practice...etc. I'm not sure how many had the opportunity to see the Duke/Virginia State game (available here) but, quality and size of opponent aside (they are currently 22-6, playing CIAA level competition), Bolden really did impress with his movement, decent skill, and energy. Sadly, it was during the week between that game and the 2nd Exhibition that he was injured (still never clear on what that injury was?) and he did not return to a game for over a month. Anyways, not a strong refutation, but I do think that starting Bolden as a true Freshman (and his playing well) prior to his injury may indicate a different trajectory was justifiably expected than has worked out thusfar.

Go Marques!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WVDUKEFAN]

If we can get 15.3 points and 13.9 rb's out of Giles, we should put him in, because we certainly aren't getting it out of Amile, although there is little doubt that injury is contributing to his lower production. He started the season like a ball of fire. I also think his numbers are lower because our guards aren't looking for our bigs. The pass them up time and time again and force shots.

I agree w/ CDu's observation of Curry.

[Kedsy]

I completely agree on Giles, but I don't know how much (if any) stock to put into the bolded part above for Bolden. I mean, we were told that Marshall Plumlee - who played just 50 minutes as a redshirt freshman a year later and with fewer bodies in front of him - was among the top 6 players prior to his injury as a true freshman. We were also told during Alex Murphy's true freshman year that he was possibly a 4-year starter. We were told by some that Seth Curry was the best player in practice on the 2010 team. Coach K seems to have a habit of talking up players who aren't available or who have been limited by injury. So I suspect this is true with the Bolden point bolded above. I think the main reason Bolden doesn't play is because he is the #3 center on the team, and Coach K doesn't like to play 3 deep at center unless absolutely forced to do so (by injury or foul trouble).

As for Giles, he is doing basically exactly what Tony Bradley is doing right now. Bradley averages 19.9 points and 14.4 rebounds per 40 minutes while shooting 56.0% from the field. Giles averages 15.3 points and 13.9 rebounds per 40 minutes while shootin 56.7% from the field. Considering differences in pace of play between UNC and Duke, that's basically a wash.

Close, but not quite. Here are the comparative stats for Giles and Bradley per 100 possessions:

HG: 22.0 pts; 19.9 rebs; 1.6 assts; 2.1 blcks; 1.3 stls; 3.6 tos;
TB: 27.3 pts; 19.9 rebs; 2.5 assts; 2.7 blcks; 1.2 stls; 2.4 tos;

So Bradley is scoring better, assisting better, and blocking better (and turning it over less). Rebounds and steals are the same. But I agree with you that, considering Harry is coming back from a year-and-a-half off, the differences aren't that important.