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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    MBB: Duke vs Miami (Sat, 1/21, 8:15pm ET, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

    Put your pre-game and in-game thoughts here.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Miami being next on the schedule is interesting because they've probably been the best ACC program at ball-screen offense since Larranaga arrived. Larranaga has described ball-screen offense as part of their identity and foundation as a program, and they've certainly hurt Duke in the past with it.

    Duke did not play ball-screens well against FSU and Lville, and now we are spending most of this bye week in preparation for a final exam of sorts against Miami, who will run ball-screens relentlessly. I'm excited to see how it plays out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    And now with the possibility of Amile and/or K returning it creates even more interest and intrigue. Let's get healthy and we can look back at some of our issues as nuisances rather than year-ending or year-changing issues. At least I'm hoping so.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Feels like a must-win game. I realize the inherent danger in saying that, because if we lose then what do we do from there? But really, this season is at a turning point and if we want to have any hope of getting things headed in the right direction then we need to win this one.

    Ball screen defense will definitely be key; just as important is getting our offense clicking again. I didn't come into this season expecting us to be elite defensively, but I did expect us to be unstoppable on offense. Moving the ball and finding easy ways to score will in turn help out our defense, not the other way around.
       

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Feels like a must-win game. I realize the inherent danger in saying that, because if we lose then what do we do from there? But really, this season is at a turning point and if we want to have any hope of getting things headed in the right direction then we need to win this one.

    Ball screen defense will definitely be key; just as important is getting our offense clicking again. I didn't come into this season expecting us to be elite defensively, but I did expect us to be unstoppable on offense. Moving the ball and finding easy ways to score will in turn help out our defense, not the other way around.
    Of the next three games - home Miami, home State and at wake I would put them in this order of ease: home v State, home v Miami, away at Wake. We haven't lost at home.. haven't won on the Road. Yes, our away games were vs top 15 teams but the ACC is just harsh on the road this year.

    We have had a full week to prep for this game while Miami plays tonight. Thats a definite edge - esp w our weak azs Defense lately. Just what we need. A week to work on D. Might watch Miami to get a little perspective. From stats their main guy is Newton both scoring and assisting

    Question -= what is the real difference in ball-screen O and pick and roll O? Is ball screen O just rubbing guys off and coming off screens like we do for shooters ? Vs a pick and roll w two specific guys - one who can choose to shoot or drive depending on the defender going under or over the screen? I ask because to my eyes we say we are bad at ball screen O but I saw things that looked like pick and roll from FSU and Louisville that just killed us..

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post

    Question -= what is the real difference in ball-screen O and pick and roll O? Is ball screen O just rubbing guys off and coming off screens like we do for shooters ? Vs a pick and roll w two specific guys - one who can choose to shoot or drive depending on the defender going under or over the screen? I ask because to my eyes we say we are bad at ball screen O but I saw things that looked like pick and roll from FSU and Louisville that just killed us..
    With Miami (and UVa), mostly in moving screens v. set screens. And the refs get tired of calling them...

    -jk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    Question -= what is the real difference in ball-screen O and pick and roll O? Is ball screen O just rubbing guys off and coming off screens like we do for shooters ? Vs a pick and roll w two specific guys - one who can choose to shoot or drive depending on the defender going under or over the screen? I ask because to my eyes we say we are bad at ball screen O but I saw things that looked like pick and roll from FSU and Louisville that just killed us..
    Ball screen and pick-and-roll are pretty much used interchangeably. Technically, ball screen is the more general term, and pick-and-roll can be considered a subset of it because the pick-and-pop is also ball screen offense.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    Question -= what is the real difference in ball-screen O and pick and roll O? Is ball screen O just rubbing guys off and coming off screens like we do for shooters ? Vs a pick and roll w two specific guys - one who can choose to shoot or drive depending on the defender going under or over the screen? I ask because to my eyes we say we are bad at ball screen O but I saw things that looked like pick and roll from FSU and Louisville that just killed us..
    Pick and roll is a subset of ball screens. You can also pick and pop, run a rub screen, slip the screen. A ball screen offense is simply one that runs a lot of on-ball screens. As opposed to, say, the Princeton offense, which primarily runs off-ball screens.

    We struggle with pretty much any ball screens. But pick and roll just emphasizes it because if you struggle there it results in layups and dunks. FSU hurt us with pick and roll with the ballhandler driving. I feel like some of Louisville's success was with the ballhandler staying on the perimeter.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Feels like a must-win game. I realize the inherent danger in saying that, because if we lose then what do we do from there? But really, this season is at a turning point and if we want to have any hope of getting things headed in the right direction then we need to win this one.

    Ball screen defense will definitely be key; just as important is getting our offense clicking again. I didn't come into this season expecting us to be elite defensively, but I did expect us to be unstoppable on offense. Moving the ball and finding easy ways to score will in turn help out our defense, not the other way around.
    It's complementary in both directions. Play good defense, including grabbing the defensive rebound, and your offense can get some easy stuff in transition, for example.

    Gut feeling -- not based on any technical analysis -- Duke's defense will step up in this game, and Duke's offense will still look like a bit of a mess against a third consecutive strong defensive opponent.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    Of the next three games - home Miami, home State and at wake I would put them in this order of ease: home v State, home v Miami, away at Wake. We haven't lost at home.. haven't won on the Road. Yes, our away games were vs top 15 teams but the ACC is just harsh on the road this year.

    We have had a full week to prep for this game while Miami plays tonight. Thats a definite edge - esp w our weak azs Defense lately. Just what we need. A week to work on D. Might watch Miami to get a little perspective. From stats their main guy is Newton both scoring and assisting

    Question -= what is the real difference in ball-screen O and pick and roll O? Is ball screen O just rubbing guys off and coming off screens like we do for shooters ? Vs a pick and roll w two specific guys - one who can choose to shoot or drive depending on the defender going under or over the screen? I ask because to my eyes we say we are bad at ball screen O but I saw things that looked like pick and roll from FSU and Louisville that just killed us..
    i don't know anything but watching wake v Miami. At wake. I stand by my assertion that the road is a killer - wake is far better than Miami while at wake. Otherwise probably pretty even or I think Miami is better. So I still think in order wake is by FAAAAAR the hardest game of the three. Watching Miami I may fear State on a two day turn more than Miami now

    This is ugly. No alibi. Wake killing miami

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    It's complementary in both directions. Play good defense, including grabbing the defensive rebound, and your offense can get some easy stuff in transition, for example.

    Gut feeling -- not based on any technical analysis -- Duke's defense will step up in this game, and Duke's offense will still look like a bit of a mess against a third consecutive strong defensive opponent.
    Opposing coaches will try to minimize opportunities for Luke to score and in particular from the 3 point range. We have seen Luke respond with a mid range game and from the foul line but the limits on him mean that we need others to pick it up. Grayson and Frank also need to produce more and with efficiency and Harry has to get well into double figures. Jayson needs to make plays as well as score. Matt will probably get his normal opportunities so I don't expect more or less from him. I don't expect our defense to make a quantum leap so we will need more points to get a solid win.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    i don't know anything but watching wake v Miami. At wake. I stand by my assertion that the road is a killer - wake is far better than Miami while at wake. Otherwise probably pretty even or I think Miami is better. So I still think in order wake is by FAAAAAR the hardest game of the three. Watching Miami I may fear State on a two day turn more than Miami now

    This is ugly. No alibi. Wake killing miami
    Anyone else watch wake v Miami

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by gofurman View Post
    Anyone else watch wake v Miami
    Yes, Miami didn't seem to be playing much defense. I hope that continues.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by curtis325 View Post
    Yes, Miami didn't seem to be playing much defense. I hope that continues.
    Pros - Miami did struggle on D and looked discombobulated at times. No superstar power like in some of their best years

    Cons - Miami does press pretty well and Wake struggled v the press at times. But I don't know that they pressed until they were behind. Wake got way ahead ... By 18 or so in first half and then Miami started a press which rattled Wake and seemed to be run pretty well. Main concern was I saw a team (miami) that spreads you w athletic guards and drives pretty well. Several And 1' drives for Miami with strong attacks at the rim. The primary scorers and scary guys are all guards. 6'2 Newton who is also their main assist guy. Good player. D Reed is a big scorer at 6'5. And one of the primary Rebound guys is a 6'5 freshman. So definitely a Guard driven team. They do drive well ..get to rim.. But they didn't appear to drive and kick too much. Appears you could sag off three-point shooters a little? Just my take

  15. #15
    Think we'll see it rain Duke Blue from three point land on Sat. Woefully dry last few games.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Pick and roll is a subset of ball screens. You can also pick and pop, run a rub screen, slip the screen. A ball screen offense is simply one that runs a lot of on-ball screens. As opposed to, say, the Princeton offense, which primarily runs off-ball screens.

    We struggle with pretty much any ball screens. But pick and roll just emphasizes it because if you struggle there it results in layups and dunks. FSU hurt us with pick and roll with the ballhandler driving. I feel like some of Louisville's success was with the ballhandler staying on the perimeter.
    Thanks for the explanation. Is a slipped screen de facto a moving screen? It seems like if you feign to screen but don't really set yourself/stay set, but yet are potentially interfering with the defenders, you could be "setting a moving screen."

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanarkel View Post
    Thanks for the explanation. Is a slipped screen de facto a moving screen? It seems like if you feign to screen but don't really set yourself/stay set, but yet are potentially interfering with the defenders, you could be "setting a moving screen."
    No sweat.

    A slipped screen is where you set up like you are going to set a screen on the perimeter, but just before the ballhandler arrives, you roll to the basket away from the ballhandler. So it wouldn't be a moving screen, because the point is specifically to not make contact or interfere with thballhandler's man. What you are trying to do with a slipped screen is to get the "screener's" man to commit to the hedge or switch, then cut to the basket unimpeded. You don't want to make contact for an actual screen because you don't want to alert the ballhandler's man that you are about to be unguarded going to the basket.

    So in a way a slipped screen has some similarities to an off-ball back cut. Both are essentially ways of an off-ball player deceiving his own man to get a free run at the basket.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    No sweat.

    A slipped screen is where you set up like you are going to set a screen on the perimeter, but just before the ballhandler arrives, you roll to the basket away from the ballhandler. So it wouldn't be a moving screen, because the point is specifically to not make contact or interfere with thballhandler's man. What you are trying to do with a slipped screen is to get the "screener's" man to commit to the hedge or switch, then cut to the basket unimpeded. You don't want to make contact for an actual screen because you don't want to alert the ballhandler's man that you are about to be unguarded going to the basket.

    So in a way a slipped screen has some similarities to an off-ball back cut. Both are essentially ways of an off-ball player deceiving his own man to get a free run at the basket.
    Thanks!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    I wasn't able to watch the Louisville game in real time and didn't get around to it until last night. Knowing the outcome, I was able to be a little more analytical and saw a bunch of reasons for optimism.

    Grayson seems like the tripping maelstrom has hardened and focused him. I thought he played really well without sacrificing what makes him tic. That was a brutal atmosphere and he was more than game. It's easy to forget that pre-Elon, he was hurt most of the time. He looks right, which is big.

    Harry is coming on, he looked springy at times, and I am noticing pretty solid progress with each game.

    Not everyone can defend like Louisville, currently ranked KenPom #2 in D and had to go back to 2010 to find a time their defense was ranked less than 5th. That D was largely responsible for our offense looking spotty. Miami's D is really good, too, at KenPom 21, but we'll be home and I think we'll manage better.

    Our defense, I can't see it getting worse. A week of practice has to have helped. Capel is still trying to nail down a rotation, I am optimistic.

    I also feel like it's a must win game. We're home, we need to win the games in which we are favored, we are 0-3 on the road which makes home wins essential, etc.

  20. #20
    It doesn't help that we have lost two in a row and four of the last six to Larranaga at Miami.

    Next to Brey (1-5), he's been Coach K's biggesr bugaboo.

    In contrast, he's won 8 of the last 10 from Bennett ... He's 11-4 in the last 15 with Roy Williams (16-11 overall) ... 3-2 v s. Boeheim in the ACC (4-3 overall) .. now 3-3 vs. Pitino (2-2 in the ACC).

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