Dr. Strange review & ranking the Marvel movies

[JasonEvans]

I find it unusual that I see an early screening of an eagerly anticipated movie and yet don't come out of it dying to tell all of you about it. I'm sorta conflicted about how I feel about Dr. Strange.

On the one hand, it was an absolute visual treat. Many critics have described it as Inception on steroids and that is how much of it feels. I found the 3D look to be stunning and well worth paying a few extra bucks to experience. There's a set piece at the end (it involves a fight that is happening as time is spinning backwards, if you can believe that!!) that is jaw dropping. I was glued to the screen for pretty much the entire movie, worried I might miss some cool effect or moment.

But, I found a lot to fault in the story and the characters.

First of all, Dr. Stephen Strange is supposed to be Tony Stark -- brash, over-confident, super successful, makes a lot of quick jokes -- but he isn't 1/10th as lovable as Stark is. We see Tony being silly and arrogant and we laugh. We see Strange do it and we feel angry at him for being a self-involved jerk. I had a real tough time rooting for this guy. I get that we are supposed to see the character transition from lout who only cares about himself to a man willing to give everything to save the world, but we don't really get to see the transition happen. One moment he's a (redacted slang for a donkey) and the next he's defending the universe. There's some "training montage" kind of stuff where he studies the mystic arts, but we did not see his personality change and I just assumed he was still studying for selfish reasons, not for the greater good. The other characters in the movie are similarly flawed with their motivations unclear and sometimes shifting without much explanation. This is especially true of Chiwetel Ejiofor and Tilda Swinton. It made the movie feel uneven to me and had me sometimes desperate for the next action piece to move the story along.



I know the Rotten Tomatoes number is big, 91%, and if I had to go with a simple "is it good or is it bad?" rating I would most certainly give it a fresh tomato (thumbs up). But I think it is less soaring and special than some of the other recent Marvel movies. From a character and story standpoint, it is nowhere near Civil War. Metacritic has it at 71, which is strong but not overwhelmingly so. Lot of critics giving it 3 stars (out of 4 or 5) which seems about right to me. It is also worth noting that if the axiom that "the bad guy makes the hero movie work" were at play here, Dr. Strange would really fail badly. Mads Mickelson's character is a real blaah and many of the fight scenes with him are confusing.

I've said a lot of bad things about a movie that is fairly good. I guess the effects just carried it sooooo much that it worked.

-Jason "there are 2 post-credit scenes... the first is a great setup of what is to come in the Marvel universe and the second is a setup for a Dr. Strange sequel. No date yet for the Strange sequel, but I suspect Marvel will want to get it moving before 2019" Evans

[JasonEvans]

So, I'm adding this to the Dr Strange thread...

Variety's film critics, Owen Gliberman and Peter Debruge, have ranked all the movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I think they took a ball peen hammer and whacked each other in the head a few times before doing it. Here is their ranking.

1. Guardians of the Galaxy
2. Dr. Strange
3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
4. Iron Man
5. The Avengers
6. Iron Man 3
7. Captain America: The First Avenger
8. Thor
9. Captain America: Civil War
10. The Incredible Hulk
11. Ant Man
12. Iron Man 2
13. Avengers: Age of Ultron
14. Thor: The Dark World

I think we can all agree that list is certifiably insane. Once you see Dr. Strange, you will certainly agree with me that it is waaaay too high. I think The Incredible Hulk is also too high. Civil War is much lower than it should be. I'm barely comfortable including Guardians in the cannon as it is set in an utterly different set of circumstances than all the others (maybe 2% of Guardians takes place in our world, all the others -- even the Thor films -- are grounded in some Earth-bound realities).

In any event, I would probably rank them thusly:

1. The Avengers
2. Captain America: Civil War
3. Iron Man
4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
5. Guardians of the Galaxy
6. Thor
7. Iron Man 3
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron
9. Captain America: The First Avenger
10. Dr. Strange
11. Ant Man
12. Thor: The Dark World
13. The Incredible Hulk
14. Iron Man 2

To me, there are tiers here. The first 4 are amazing and I could put them in just about any order. Guardians is a close 5th. It is a bit of a drop down from those films to the tier that goes from Thor to Ant Man. These are all really good movies that are a solid notch below the best but still very watchable and bear up through repeat viewings. The bottom three are kinda weak. Loki almost saves The Dark World, but the ending battle with the lead Dark Elf is just horrible. Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2 are so bad, if they were on my TV right now, I would channel surf to see if I could find something better (something I do not do with any of the other films on this list unless I have seen them very recently).

-Jason "once folks see Dr. Strange, I hope they too will chime in" Evans

[rthomas]

I only recently got into Marvel through Netflix.

1.Jessica Jones
2 Luke Cage (Playlist is amazing!)
3.Daredevil

All are great.

[PackMan97]

We should do the same with the DC Universe, except instead of arguing which movies are the best, we can argue which is the worst.

[BD80]

So, I'm adding this to the Dr Strange thread...

Variety's film critics, Owen Gliberman and Peter Debruge, have ranked all the movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I think they took a ball peen hammer and whacked each other in the head a few times before doing it. Here is their ranking.

...

What qualifies for the list?

There are a few Spider-Man movies and at least one more Hulk. If you only consider the recent Avengers cinematic Universe, why does the Norton Hulk make it? Spider-Man is now an Avenger, why not bring those movies in?

I wholeheartedly agree with your 3 tiers; I might quibble a bit on the order between one or two of the movies, but there is certainly a significant difference between the three tiers.

[JasonEvans]

We should do the same with the DC Universe, except instead of arguing which movies are the best, we can argue which is the worst.

Well, there have only technically been 3 films in the DC Extended Universe at this point, 2 of which were directed by Zach Snyder (who probably should be physically restrained from ever directing a meaningful movie ever again). Are we including older stuff like Batman and Robin, Superman 4: The Quest for Peace, or (shudder) Catwoman? I mean, these are films that make Green Lantern look positively awesome by comparison.

-Jason "of the 3 recent films, there's no question in my mind that BvS was the worst... it was just terrible right down to the name 'Martha' saving mankind from extinction... sheesh!" Evans

[Wander]

There are a few Spider-Man movies and at least one more Hulk. If you only consider the recent Avengers cinematic Universe, why does the Norton Hulk make it? Spider-Man is now an Avenger, why not bring those movies in?

The movies JE listed are the "Marvel Cinematic Universe." Hulk is part of that storyline, even if it changed actors. The spider-man movies never were (though the next ones will be).

I actually liked Avengers 2 better than Avengers 1 (outside of what they did to Black Widow), but I know I'm in the minority on that.

[JasonEvans]

What qualifies for the list?

There are a few Spider-Man movies and at least one more Hulk. If you only consider the recent Avengers cinematic Universe, why does the Norton Hulk make it? Spider-Man is now an Avenger, why not bring those movies in?

The Marvel Cinematic Universe is very well defined. These are all films that were controlled by and produced by Marvel Studios. It all begins with Kevin Feige taking control of the Marvel movie universe in 2007 with Iron Man as the first film under his rule. They have an extensive cannon of films at this point, crossing through multiple characters but all existing within the same universe. If we were to include some of the other titles, then it becomes an unfair comparison of different budgets and studio directives. I am intentionally not including any of the X-Men films or earlier Spider Man flicks or Fantastic Four flicks as they are not part of this universe.

It is somewhat like ranking all the Star Trek films and wondering why Empire Strikes Back or Revenge of the Sith is not part of the ranking. Just because the films come from a similar genre, does not mean you rank them together (at least not for this list).

-Jason "as an aside, I have long maintained that if DC/Warner was smart, they would offer Feige $100 or 200 million to come run the DC Movies... though I suspect Disney would probably best any offer to him... he's the most successful dude in Hollywood over the past decade (IMO)" Evans

[PackMan97]

Well, there have only technically been 3 films in the DC Extended Universe at this point, 2 of which were directed by Zach Snyder (who probably should be physically restrained from ever directing a meaningful movie ever again). Are we including older stuff like Batman and Robin, Superman 4: The Quest for Peace, or (shudder) Catwoman? I mean, these are films that make Green Lantern look positively awesome by comparison.

-Jason "of the 3 recent films, there's no question in my mind that BvS was the worst... it was just terrible right down to the name 'Martha' saving mankind from extinction... sheesh!" Evans

Ah heck, we could just do all the DC based movies and all the Marvel based movies. But I do suppose it's only fair to do the MCU and DCEU movies for apples to apples.

..it's amazing what has happened...from some of the worst movies in history to guaranteed $500 billion - $1 trillion grosses!

Marvel Cinematic Universe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe

DC Extended Universe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe

[luburch]

If you include Guardians, I think it's the clear #1.

Iron Man II and III and the Thor movies would be at the bottom of my lists.

[fuse]

So, I'm adding this to the Dr Strange thread...

Variety's film critics, Owen Gliberman and Peter Debruge, have ranked all the movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I think they took a ball peen hammer and whacked each other in the head a few times before doing it. Here is their ranking.

1. Guardians of the Galaxy
2. Dr. Strange
3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
4. Iron Man
5. The Avengers
6. Iron Man 3
7. Captain America: The First Avenger
8. Thor
9. Captain America: Civil War
10. The Incredible Hulk
11. Ant Man
12. Iron Man 2
13. Avengers: Age of Ultron
14. Thor: The Dark World

I think we can all agree that list is certifiably insane. Once you see Dr. Strange, you will certainly agree with me that it is waaaay too high. I think The Incredible Hulk is also too high. Civil War is much lower than it should be. I'm barely comfortable including Guardians in the cannon as it is set in an utterly different set of circumstances than all the others (maybe 2% of Guardians takes place in our world, all the others -- even the Thor films -- are grounded in some Earth-bound realities).

In any event, I would probably rank them thusly:

1. The Avengers
2. Captain America: Civil War
3. Iron Man
4. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
5. Guardians of the Galaxy
6. Thor
7. Iron Man 3
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron
9. Captain America: The First Avenger
10. Dr. Strange
11. Ant Man
12. Thor: The Dark World
13. The Incredible Hulk
14. Iron Man 2

To me, there are tiers here. The first 4 are amazing and I could put them in just about any order. Guardians is a close 5th. It is a bit of a drop down from those films to the tier that goes from Thor to Ant Man. These are all really good movies that are a solid notch below the best but still very watchable and bear up through repeat viewings. The bottom three are kinda weak. Loki almost saves The Dark World, but the ending battle with the lead Dark Elf is just horrible. Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2 are so bad, if they were on my TV right now, I would channel surf to see if I could find something better (something I do not do with any of the other films on this list unless I have seen them very recently).

-Jason "once folks see Dr. Strange, I hope they too will chime in" Evans

Haven't seen Dr. Strange (yet).

I expected to like the Captain America movies the least, and they have been among the best.

1. Avengers
2. Cap
3. Cap Winter Soldier
4. Cap Civil War
5. Iron Man
6. Thor

What is interesting to me is there is a Star Wars parallel. I fall into the camp of Star Wars is the best movie, followed by Empire, with the lovely flawed logic of without Star Wars, there can be no Empire.

Following that same logic, Iron Man ought to be number one, because without it, the Marvel universe fizzles and maybe we see none of these movies made.

Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy fall into the "low expectations, pleasant surprise" category.
Thor 2, Iron Man 2 and 3, and Ultron were pretty bad.

[JasonEvans]

Back to Dr. Strange (I'm eager to hear what some of you say once you have seen it this weekend), I just read this review from io9 that almost perfectly matches my feelings about the film.

the (Marvel) formula is also starting to show a lot of cracks at this point, because it produces the same flaws—rushed third acts, half-hearted romance subplots, and poorly fleshed-out villains. These consistent problems slowly but surely chipping away at each new film in the MCU’s lustre. Slowly but surely, these movies have stopped being great and started being simply decent, with a few moments of promise.

The review also gets into something I had spoken about to some friends after the movie was over, but forgot to include in my brief comments at the start of this thread. I was really bothered by some jarring moments where serious stuff was suddenly interrupted by comedic moments. It dulled the comedy and made the serious stuff feel less important. It is a really hard thing to pull off -- Iron Man does it well and so does Guardians; Avengers knocked it out of the park; but humor has not worked well in the Thor movies and is a problem at times in Dr. Strange too. As the io9 review says...

This becomes especially clear in the film’s jokier moments. For example: a serious conversation between Strange and Kamar-taj librarian Wong (Benedict Wong) immediately cuts to a Beyoncé-soundtracked sequence that feels like a tired attempt at shoehorning in some pop culture japes. In another, the first deathly serious battle between Strange and the villain of the piece, Mads Mikkelsen’s Kaecilius (speaking of things that happen an awful lot in Marvel movies, he’s yet another barely fleshed out villain played but an immensely talented and criminally underused actor) is awkwardly interrupted by an extended gag featuring Strange’s magical cloak of levitation having a mind of its own, before the two characters remember they were in the middle of fighting each other to the death and get back to it.

-Jason "it is still a good movie and worth seeing... but it is flawed" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Ummm, did anyone who saw it over the weekend want to chime in with their personal review? Did I sufficiently lower expectations enough for folks to really love it?

[luburch]

Ummm, did anyone who saw it over the weekend want to chime in with their personal review? Did I sufficiently lower expectations enough for folks to really love it?

I debated going to see it over the weekend. Instead I caught a matinee of The Girl on the Train. I enjoyed the book (wasn't great, but fun), the movie was slow and disappointing.

If I have time this Sunday I might try and catch a matinee of Dr. Strange or I might just hold off going back until Fantastic Beasts.

I have heard from a few friends who confirm Jason's opinions on the visuals.

[Doria]

I loved it. I don't have time for full thoughts, but I can't really ding it for being an origin story since a) that's just what it is and audiences aren't that familiar with the character, comparatively, and b) they spent as little time as possible on the build up. While I'd have loved to have Mikkelson's character get more time and attention, he was a perfectly good antagonist and Mordo was quite sympathetic; I'm sorry for his turn the darker side, though it was inevitable.

There was a great Forbes article that picked apart the character themes and narratives, discussing how all the main characters were, ultimately, zealots of different brands. I don't necessarily agree with all the article's points, but it was worth a read if you're at all interested. I'll try to find a link later, but you can probably find it with google.

I'd say that it really isn't a movie for kids, though I don't recall any material that's particularly mature in nature, but by Marvel movie standards, I thought the pace was deliberate and character-based by design. I'm just not sure how much it's appeal to younger children or teens.

And I think his Strange's character is pretty different than Stark's, except for arrogance. They share that (as do many of the Marvel heroes, to varying degrees), but the underlying cause and expression seems very different to me. Strange isn't necessarily likeable, though that's arguably faithful to his comics counterpart, but I'm not sure one is really meant to like him. Or at least, not in the same way that the Captain America movie wants you to like Cap. Whether one thinks that's a negative, of course, will vary by viewer. And again, I wouldn't expect it to be a great family movie, partially for that reason (though it's been so long since I was a kid that maybe I've forgotten if kids like unlikeable protagonists).

Anyhow, those are very scattered thoughts, but I'm under a deadline, so can't reply further. I'll check back and post more later~

Oh, and it makes my top five, maybe second to Winter Soldier. I didn't like GotG as much as apparently everyone else in the world did, though. Iron Man is in there, too, as well as maybe Cap 1.