Continuing With Coach Roof

[Patrick Yates]

TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stanford has more TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about as intelligent as that retard singing during the opening of the (way overregarded) play.

Duke has tons of tradition. From way, way back in the day. How much has that been worth lately?

I will grant that Stanford has more tradition than Duke, at least recently.

How many points was that worth against USC? I am serious. For the tradition argument to hold water, that tradition must equate into points. Did USC agree not to try as hard, or to coach conservatively, or to spot Stanford some points?

Hey, Duke basketball has a better tradition since 2000 than UNC. Maryland should spot us a few baskets this year.

See how dumb that sounds? Harbaugh went in to Stanford this year, and turned those kids (none of whom were at Stanford for the Rose Bowl runs, so someone please explain to me how that is relevant) into world beaters, at least for a night. Were it not for the App St game, the Stanford USC game would've gone down as one of the biggest upsets in years. 21 point underdogs, to a NC favorite, at USC's house, and Stanford wins.

That is coaching my friends (and I point that out, because many here may be unfamiliar with it even when it is obvious). Cause you know, you have to know, that Stanfords recruiting was a wash last year. Harbaugh came in too late to do anything given Stanfords rigorous admissions (which ARE tougher than Duke's, which everyone is stepping arround). Of course, that has not stopped Stanford from stealing a top QB from this year's HS class, who by himself virtually assures that Stanford's class will surpass Duke's.

And another thing, about this alleged tradition. How is that helping the Golden Dome this year?

Rember B.C.? That is to say, Before Carroll, at USC? They were a mediocre team. Carson Palmer was regarded as El Busto, a HS QB who was much ballyhooed, and much maligned. PC came in, made a great call for an OC, and built a nasty D. Even though USC was a middling Pac 10 team prior to PC (unless you want to harken back to USC's "tradition" by naming Orenthal, and some other RBs, an era that happened prior to my parents meeting), Petey boy got them on an uptick. He did it a heck of a lot faster than Roof.

And no one here, me included, expects Duke to be even half that good. I mean, 4-7 wins is not much to ask. At USC, a 3 LOSS season is now a sign of Armageddon.

What will it take for the Duke fans to give up on Roof? Seriously. Every one says not to give up yet. Fine, have it your (delusional) way. For those of us who passed "yet" 20 odd losses ago, we would like some parameters. What will it take to end the support for Roof?

Suppose that Roof doesn't win another game this year (those ND and UNC games aren't quite so attractive now, eh?). Many here seem to indicate that Roof is close to turning a corner (Doctor, we are experiencing the same events, over and over. Is it a time Loop? Has the Master turned the Tardis into a paradox machine again? Cybermen? Daleks? Torchwood?), a song we have heard before.

OK. Give him another season. Next year, I want a Stanford-USC level win. If Harbaugh can do it, with tougher admission standards, after a 1 win season (that he was not responsible for), surely Roof can do it with Redshirt Seniors, all of whom he recruited. Given what we have endured under Roof, a USC level win is not too much to ask for. After all, we know it can be done (and against a team much better than any in the ACC, no less).

Patrick "I am not kidding. What will constitute the Roof finally completing the noose at the end of his rope?" Yates

[Kewlswim]

TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stanford has more TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about as intelligent as that retard singing during the opening of the (way overregarded) play.

Duke has tons of tradition. From way, way back in the day. How much has that been worth lately?

I will grant that Stanford has more tradition than Duke, at least recently.

How many points was that worth against USC? I am serious. For the tradition argument to hold water, that tradition must equate into points. Did USC agree not to try as hard, or to coach conservatively, or to spot Stanford some points?

Hey, Duke basketball has a better tradition since 2000 than UNC. Maryland should spot us a few baskets this year.

See how dumb that sounds? Harbaugh went in to Stanford this year, and turned those kids (none of whom were at Stanford for the Rose Bowl runs, so someone please explain to me how that is relevant) into world beaters, at least for a night. Were it not for the App St game, the Stanford USC game would've gone down as one of the biggest upsets in years. 21 point underdogs, to a NC favorite, at USC's house, and Stanford wins.

That is coaching my friends (and I point that out, because many here may be unfamiliar with it even when it is obvious). Cause you know, you have to know, that Stanfords recruiting was a wash last year. Harbaugh came in too late to do anything given Stanfords rigorous admissions (which ARE tougher than Duke's, which everyone is stepping arround). Of course, that has not stopped Stanford from stealing a top QB from this year's HS class, who by himself virtually assures that Stanford's class will surpass Duke's.

And another thing, about this alleged tradition. How is that helping the Golden Dome this year?

Rember B.C.? That is to say, Before Carroll, at USC? They were a mediocre team. Carson Palmer was regarded as El Busto, a HS QB who was much ballyhooed, and much maligned. PC came in, made a great call for an OC, and built a nasty D. Even though USC was a middling Pac 10 team prior to PC (unless you want to harken back to USC's "tradition" by naming Orenthal, and some other RBs, an era that happened prior to my parents meeting), Petey boy got them on an uptick. He did it a heck of a lot faster than Roof.

And no one here, me included, expects Duke to be even half that good. I mean, 4-7 wins is not much to ask. At USC, a 3 LOSS season is now a sign of Armageddon.

What will it take for the Duke fans to give up on Roof? Seriously. Every one says not to give up yet. Fine, have it your (delusional) way. For those of us who passed "yet" 20 odd losses ago, we would like some parameters. What will it take to end the support for Roof?

Suppose that Roof doesn't win another game this year (those ND and UNC games aren't quite so attractive now, eh?). Many here seem to indicate that Roof is close to turning a corner (Doctor, we are experiencing the same events, over and over. Is it a time Loop? Has the Master turned the Tardis into a paradox machine again? Cybermen? Daleks? Torchwood?), a song we have heard before.

OK. Give him another season. Next year, I want a Stanford-USC level win. If Harbaugh can do it, with tougher admission standards, after a 1 win season (that he was not responsible for), surely Roof can do it with Redshirt Seniors, all of whom he recruited. Given what we have endured under Roof, a USC level win is not too much to ask for. After all, we know it can be done (and against a team much better than any in the ACC, no less).

Patrick "I am not kidding. What will constitute the Roof finally completing the noose at the end of his rope?" Yates

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand why anyone still thinks Roof is the answer. Alas, I've written extensively about it. You've written extensively. There seem to be hardened camps now. At least we all love Duke football! I don't think it has to be a named coach to help us reach great heights. I joke about Charlie Weis being fired and Duke picking him up (I think that my humor wasn't caught by everyone on that post). I wrote that maybe he is an African-American who hasn't had his shot and maybe Duke will provide it. Any Polish African-American football head coaches out there with lots of experience (for the record, that was a joke--at least the Polish part)?

GO DUKE!

[hughgs]

Agreed, but do any of us here really know? Unless someone is on a search committee it is all speculation unless they come out and say they want the job...

True, but is there any reason for thinking that any coach wants the Duke job?

And isn't that the point of this exercise, to make people realize wanting a person to take the coaching job isn't the same thing as the person wanting the coaching job?

[hughgs]

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand why anyone still thinks Roof is the answer. Alas, I've written extensively about it. You've written extensively. There seem to be hardened camps now. At least we all love Duke football! I don't think it has to be a named coach to help us reach great heights. I joke about Charlie Weis being fired and Duke picking him up (I think that my humor wasn't caught by everyone on that post). I wrote that maybe he is an African-American who hasn't had his shot and maybe Duke will provide it. Any Polish African-American football head coaches out there with lots of experience (for the record, that was a joke--at least the Polish part)?

GO DUKE!

Since you've posted under this sub-section of the thread then you should enlighten us with a list of viable candidates who meet the four qualifications for the Duke coaching job.

[JasonEvans]

PY-- did you really just call Fiddler on the Roof overrated?!?! Dude, them's fighting words!!!

You ask what it would take for those of us who support him to give up on Roof. Hey, the answer (at least for me) is simple-- when we start clearly regressing again -- when there are no signs of progress and improvement -- then I would agree it will be time to get rid of him and look for a new coach.

Do you think Duke is just as bad this year as they were last year? Do you think there are no signs of progress and improvement on the team? I think you are a pretty smart observer of Duke athletics so I am betting you would agree there are signs of improvement. I bet you are not satisfied with it thought and think there should be far more improvement for coach to retain his job. I think that is largely the difference between us on this issue-- I think any improvement is worth giving him a little more time. You think we just not have improved enough for him to get another year.

Then again, you may think we have not improved at all. I'd find that more than a little stunning given the results of our recent games and the performance of some of our improving players, but it is possible.

--Jason "I want to see the progress continue-- the next few games had better not all be blowouts" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Since you've posted under this sub-section of the thread then you should enlighten us with a list of viable candidates who meet the four qualifications for the Duke coaching job.

I think it is a little disingenuous to ask folks to name someone who is interested in the job and the such when there is really almost no way for any of us to have access to that kind of information.

That said, I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy. Our program is just not very attractive right now. And it is quite improtant to add that any potential replacement coach would probably look skeptically at our history of firing one coach after another after just a few years. It would certainly help a potential search for a new coach for us to have the appearance of being a school that sticks with a coach and really gives him a chance to succeed.

--Jason "trivia time-- how long has it been since Duke had a football coach on the job for more than 5 years?" Evans

[YmoBeThere]

Agreed with you Jason that finding a good replacement will be tough, but you don't hold on to something that isn't working because of that.

I am still wavering back in forth in my opinion, I get encouraged while listening to a game(such as Saturday's where we make significant progress in the second half) but a day or two later wonder why the heck we didn't really seem to play well in the first half/second half, etc.

How long was Franks there? 1998, but before or after the season? He left midway through 2003, so consider that he had 1999,2000,2001, 2002, and parts of 2003 before he was let go. Pretty close to 5. If the program were performing, more than 5 years would make sense.

My opinion, but I don't think a coach wanting 5 years to turn around the program is an obstacle. Particularly if there was any faith that what was being done before they got there was on the right path. And again, what is our measure of success at year 4, year 5, etc.?

[metalasian]

Hey first post here, being a Duke student, fan of all Duke sports, and a casual member of the rivals and scout boards, just wanted to add my two cents.

First off, I cannot believe that people are still asking for another season under Roof. If you look at our schedule, we are 1-5. With better coaching, playcalling and execution, we could easily be 5-1. We have the talent. Roof is 6-39. SIX of THIRTY NINE. I heard someone at the game say it best; when a coach who would’ve been fired after one or two seasons at his alma mater, is coaching his fifth season here, there’s going to be problems. In a year when Kentucky, Illinois, and Kansas are ranked and Uconn remains unbeaten, Duke remains a basketball school who doesn’t quite get it yet.

Many argue that we are about to turn the corner; while it’s certainly possible, when a team has taken this long to do improve at all, there’s reason to believe that the coaching staff, or at least Roof, is simply not capable of turning a program around. People say Roof inherited a ‘mess.’ Ok, so that’s true. Jeff Tedford transformed 1-11 record into a 7-5 record within a year. Jim Harbaugh at Stanford already has more wins than last year, including one over #2 USC at home. Even when Grobe was building the Wake Forest program, they were winning games, although not necessarily having winning seasons. It’ll be a shame to watch us not perform to our potential next year with the most talent and experience we’ve had in awhile.

Although we’ve all seen remarkable improvement, particularly on the offensive side, our team still finds ways to lose. What the team lacks are fundamentals, the basics. One of our poorest characteristics of the past few games has been execution and discipline: trick plays are easily exposed or botched, our players, particularly Thad, not being able to hold onto the ball and making costly fumbles, converting or making stops on high pressured situations, defending the short pass, etc. These are not solely the responsibility of our players. Coaches are supposed to instill discipline; being a Duke student and having a friend walk on briefly to the football team, reports are that practice and training are not nearly as rigorous as one would expect or demand from a D-1 school from a BCS conference. This is furthermore evidenced by many of our players’ lack of conditioning (particularly VO). Does everyone still think VO will be a guaranteed draft pick? Granted, he’s got size but he certainly has not been performing to his standard, and we all can tell he’s clearly gassed by the end of each game. If we’re going to improve, we can’t solely do so on playcalling; we’ll need to condition our guy’s better, drill them better, and simply teach them the game better.

Admissions standards are not an issue. Seriously, don’t even make this an argument. Sure, we might pass on some recruits that Ohio State or any SEC school might accept, but the bottom line is we still go after many blue-chip recruits. Admissions doesn’t stop us from going after guys who commit to Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Tennessee, etc. Once in a while, we land one, like VO. Admissions should not be relevant to fielding a successful team. I have several football players in my classes. Let me tell you, it does not take much brains to be a D-1 football athlete, even at Duke. Trust me.

And even in the end, why not hire a new coach? Some of us just want to see Roof succeed too much. Even if Roof is improving, there are plenty of prospective coaches who could do better with our talent. Even if we win another game, or even two this year, it’s easily possible that with another coach we could have 6 or 7 wins this year. Even if our program gets better, there’s no reason to believe another coach can't maximize our talent better than Roof.

So.. why haven't we hired Dick Biddle yet? haha

[unexpected]

I don't understand why everyone's making a big deal out of this Stanford beating USC thing. Yes, it was a key victory, and a huge upset, but it is in no way indicative of Stanford's performance this year.

Stanford's win over USC was a total fluke. USC was basically sleep-walking. I think if USC and Stanford played 99 more times, USC would win all 99.

The comparison to Tedford at Cal doesn't make sense either. Cal has a strong academic reputation, but it's still a state school with a built-in talent pipeline. They can draw from the entire NorCal region. Duke can't do that. We're a private school. The recruits in North Carolina aren't that good - just look at UNC and State's recent performance, and on top that kids that play there grow up loving that team.

Tedford also had the reputation of being a QB guru. His QBs are awesome and are usually drafted really high. This helps him get good recruits at the most valuable position.

People keep saying why we don't go after the 5-star recruits that are really smart - as if they had no other options. 1) Those recruits are hard to come by. They don't grow them on trees - they're at the end of the bell curve in two respects, and 2) they go to Notre Dame. Remember college is supposed to be the best 4 years of your life.

Everyone acts like academics are the be-all end-all. We all went to Duke, so we love saying that, but guys, look around. There are smart people from bad schools, dumb people from good schools. In the real world, character, integrity, interpersonal skills, and connections matter a lot too. There's very little a Notre Dame education would offer that Duke education wouldn't except 1) a marginally worse academic profile 2) a much, much, much better football tradition, 2) colder weather (which is not realy a problem for the 75% of people in that climate already), 3) hero status at their school.

For Duke to be successful, we have to have other draws besides (OMG, he would get the best education ever!) If he really wanted to do that, he would go to havard or princeton. This is what FDA gets at everytime, and even though some of his ideas are utterly ridiculous, the underlying message does have some merit.

I've been a huge Roof hater in the past, but I've been really encouraged by this season. We're playing with fire in every game. We haven't had a fluke victory yet, but that doesn't really mean much to me. We had that in Roof's first season when we beat Georgia Tech. Look at where that got us. I want constant, fundamental growth. I want a program that looks like it's being built out of granite and blocks, so it can be strong for the future. We might continued our plateau, but you just know by the games that things are...different.

We may be losing, but to me a fluke victory would be empty. We're competitive in all our games, and when we start winning, we'll know the victory came true.

The alternatives are much worse. No one wants to coach us. That was made apparent last coaching search. Frank Solich? are you serious? Solich is a great coach, but has no interest in coaching football. He has not surfaced in any coaching search in the years since he was fired, which indicates to me that he's done.

Additionally, Solich is an option coach. Have you seen our running backs? They're less than stellar. Hiring solich would require a long-term commitment (3-5) years to totally re-inventing our attack. If you want to do that, and Solich wants to coach, by all means fire him. This won't happen though, because we're not going to get instant results with him, either.

Can we just call Chris Douglas? Seriously, if we had him in the backfield this year, we could do some really damage. He was so talented (and almost made the giants before his hip injury), and it's a shame how much Franks underutilized him.

[hughgs]

I think it is a little disingenuous to ask folks to name someone who is interested in the job and the such when there is really almost no way for any of us to have access to that kind of information.

That said, I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy. Our program is just not very attractive right now. And it is quite improtant to add that any potential replacement coach would probably look skeptically at our history of firing one coach after another after just a few years. It would certainly help a potential search for a new coach for us to have the appearance of being a school that sticks with a coach and really gives him a chance to succeed.

--Jason "trivia time-- how long has it been since Duke had a football coach on the job for more than 5 years?" Evans

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

[YmoBeThere]

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

Debating somehting you can't know gets into pointless speculation(okay I do indulge in it, but in this case I took one stab at it...see Solich comments by another above). For example, is A-rod going to remain with the Yankess or not? Well, that depends...

I agree with you that unlike the UNC basketball job, there are not likely a large pool of well known candidates who will publicly lobby for the job. However, that does not mean that there isn't anyone that would be interested in the job. Just that we are not likely to know about it. Another point in your favor is was that we ended up going with one of our coordinators for our current coach . Again, the unknown is we have no idea how the search committee did its job.

[FewFAC]

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

I have to support this position. After 2 decades of this annual topic of conversation, I understand just how difficult it is for the "results right now" crowd to comprehend the lack of commitment that is Duke football. The best approach for football success at Duke is going to require the coaching staff understanding they have some measure of job security if they do things the right way, regardless of on-field results.

[YmoBeThere]

The best approach for football success at Duke is going to require the coaching staff understanding they have some measure of job security if they do things the right way, regardless of on-field results.

Doing things the right way? What exactly does that mean? No paying the players, no academic high jinks? Those items have never been negotiable. So, they should get a free pass for how long based on on-field results? As long as they are doing the above? If that is the case, we would still have Carl Franks as our coach. Again, those are non-negotiable. 5 years is enough to show some progress...I will say this again and again, what progress have we shown? Moral victories? Moral victories result from confirmation bias that your team can't win. So, you seek out some other way to make the result seem less bad. By the way, this is year 4 for Coach Roof.

Is there a consensus on what progress means? Crappy as an owner as he is, Steinbrenner was clear with Joe Torre this weekend even if he did deliver the message via the press. Win this series or you will be looking for another job. This after losing in the ALDS level for the last couple of years.

[Jumbo]

Is there a consensus on what progress means? Crappy as an owner as he is, Steinbrenner was clear with Joe Torre this weekend even if he did deliver the message via the press. Win this series or you will be looking for another job. This after losing in the ALDS level for the last couple of years.

If you're turning to George Steinbrenner as an example of a sane approach to this issue, well, you've already lost your argument.

[YmoBeThere]

Semi-sane, sort of like the broken clock being right two times a day. Next year will be pivotal in my own thought process on Roof. More winning this year would certainly make everyone more comfortable.

[throatybeard]

If you're turning to George Steinbrenner as an example of a sane approach to this issue, well, you've already lost your argument.

Let's call it "Steinbrenner's Law"

[Jumbo]

Semi-sane, sort of like the broken clock being right two times a day. Next year will be pivotal in my own thought process on Roof. More winning this year would certainly make everyone more comfortable.

Not to drag this too far off-topic, but do you think Steinbrenner is actually correct in wanting to fire Torre?

[FewFAC]

Doing things the right way? What exactly does that mean? No paying the players, no academic high jinks? Those items have never been negotiable. So, they should get a free pass for how long based on on-field results? As long as they are doing the above? If that is the case, we would still have Carl Franks as our coach. Again, those are non-negotiable. 5 years is enough to show some progress...I will say this again and again, what progress have we shown? Moral victories? Moral victories result from confirmation bias that your team can't win. So, you seek out some other way to make the result seem less bad. By the way, this is year 4 for Coach Roof.

And I meant they never should be negotiable. I just think the administration should approach the teaching of sports in the same manner as the approach the teaching of any other subject matter at the University. I would much rather have a program beyond reproach in terms of its admissions, academic success and personal responsibility than to sacrifice any of those things for gridiron wins.

The University sacrificed a lot of other support necessary for on-field success a long time ago, and those are not things from which a FBS team recovers quickly.

[YmoBeThere]

Not to drag this too far off-topic, but do you think Steinbrenner is actually correct in wanting to fire Torre?

If it were my decision, no I would not be firing Torre at this time. But this goes a lot on my assumptions of what may or may not have happened behind the scenes. The Yankess pitching is inadequate particularly in a short series. In a game with huge variability, I would suggest that pitching is less variable than hitting and should thus be the focus. The Yankees have been tied up in too many contracts with aging pitchers, this I would put at the feet of Brian Cashman.

I work in the corporate world, those in charge make changes in leadership when results are not achieved. I have seen cases where I thought changes were made too quickly and cases where people should have been changed long before they were. I do believe it is detrimental to an organization to let it perform less than its capabilities or expectations for too long. That is why I have noted in a post or two what the clear expectations are for determining progress. Ultimately, for me that means wins on the field. Not 9-10, but 3-4. I was expecting 3-4 before this year started. We still have an outside chance at getting there, my expectations are falling given the remaining schedule. The pivotal game for me was the loss to Navy.

Let us not forget that Coach Franks was let go mid season after a loss to Wake Forest. So, some standard was being applied. I think the same standard(whatever it is) should be applied to Coach Roof.

[jlear]

I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy.

Jason, do you mean that those who are negative on Roof on DBR are a minority or you think that in general Duke fans want Roof to be given more time?