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  1. #1

    Retired Jersey Discussion thread

    Just to interject the same comment I always interject whenever we start talking bout jerseys in the rafters -- there is only one hard-and-fast criteria: the candidate must have his degree.

    Even that is a late addition. For many years, jerseys were retired in either the final home game or the next to last home game of a player's career. That was before they were guaranteed graduation. One player had his jersey retired then didn't graduate as expected -- Christian Laettner. He had to return for a summer school course to earn his degree. In recent years, jerseys have been retired in the season following a player's graduation.

    Other than that, there is no strict qualifying standard. National player of the year? Yes, except that Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY in 1999 and his didn't get his jersey retired (because he didn't graduate).

    National Defensive Player of the Year was the excuse for Shelden, but Tommy Amaker and Wojo were also NDPOY and didn't get their jersey retired (Grant Hill and Battier did, but they were also the overall NPOY).

    Bobby Hurley was never NPOY or NDPOY. He was first-team All-American as a senior (he wasn't even consensus third team as a freshman, soph or junior). The excuse given for honoring him was his NCAA record for career assists.

    Jeff Mullins' jersey is in the rafters and he was never NPOY, NDPOY or even consensus first-team All-America (although he just missed in 1964). Mike Gminski was consensus first-team A-A in 1979 (and consensus second team in 1980), but never sniffed NPOY.

    On the other hand, consensus first-team All-Americans Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith all graduated and are not in the rafters. (Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were first team picks, but didn't graduate),

    So, I'll repeat, the criteria for hanging a jersey is whatever Coach K decides ... other than graduation. And what the heck, if he decided to honor a non-graduate, he could probably do that too.

    As for Grayson, if he has a great junior year, leads Duke to another national championship -- AND GRADUATES -- I could see his jersey being retired, whether he wins national player of the year honors or not. I would think he probably needs to be a consensus first-team All-American, but even that is not certain.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Just to interject the same comment I always interject whenever we start talking bout jerseys in the rafters -- there is only one hard-and-fast criteria: the candidate must have his degree.

    Even that is a late addition. For many years, jerseys were retired in either the final home game or the next to last home game of a player's career. That was before they were guaranteed graduation. One player had his jersey retired then didn't graduate as expected -- Christian Laettner. He had to return for a summer school course to earn his degree. In recent years, jerseys have been retired in the season following a player's graduation.

    Other than that, there is no strict qualifying standard. National player of the year? Yes, except that Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY in 1999 and his didn't get his jersey retired (because he didn't graduate).

    National Defensive Player of the Year was the excuse for Shelden, but Tommy Amaker and Wojo were also NDPOY and didn't get their jersey retired (Grant Hill and Battier did, but they were also the overall NPOY).

    Bobby Hurley was never NPOY or NDPOY. He was first-team All-American as a senior (he wasn't even consensus third team as a freshman, soph or junior). The excuse given for honoring him was his NCAA record for career assists.

    Jeff Mullins' jersey is in the rafters and he was never NPOY, NDPOY or even consensus first-team All-America (although he just missed in 1964). Mike Gminski was consensus first-team A-A in 1979 (and consensus second team in 1980), but never sniffed NPOY.

    On the other hand, consensus first-team All-Americans Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith all graduated and are not in the rafters. (Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were first team picks, but didn't graduate),

    So, I'll repeat, the criteria for hanging a jersey is whatever Coach K decides ... other than graduation. And what the heck, if he decided to honor a non-graduate, he could probably do that too.

    As for Grayson, if he has a great junior year, leads Duke to another national championship -- AND GRADUATES -- I could see his jersey being retired, whether he wins national player of the year honors or not. I would think he probably needs to be a consensus first-team All-American, but even that is not certain.
    I think some of these examples are before K's time, so I don't think we can apply them here, but I read somewhere on goDuke.com that a player:

    1) MUST GRADUATE

    Then

    1) Win a National Award, OR
    2) Break an NCAA Record, OR
    3) Win an Olympic Gold Medal

    Mullins and Gminski we should remove from this list, K did not decide their jersey retirement. But according to this list Amaker and Wojo should also be retired.

    I was always told that Carrawell did not graduate until much later (after his professional career was over). I remember hearing that K would not even hang the banners the team earned from Carrawell's senior year (2000) until he graduated (I'm not sure if this is true, but definitely urban legend while I was at Duke).

  3. #3
    If we are doing this all over again, it must be time to reference the sticky thread again.

    Yay, offseason!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    Every player who has had their jersey retired has won a National Player of the Year Award.
    This is clearly untrue. Five out of 13 Duke retired jerseys (38.5%) did NOT win NPOY, although two of those five won NDPOY. Mike Gminski, Bobby Hurley, and Jeff Mullins didn't win any kind of national player of the year.

    Oly is right. There is no tried and true test. If Coach K wants a player's jersey retired, it's going to be retired.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    This is clearly untrue. Five out of 13 Duke retired jerseys (38.5%) did NOT win NPOY, although two of those five won NDPOY. Mike Gminski, Bobby Hurley, and Jeff Mullins didn't win any kind of national player of the year.

    Oly is right. There is no tried and true test. If Coach K wants a player's jersey retired, it's going to be retired.
    I mentioned the NDPOY as a "National Level Award".

    Gminski and Mullins were before K era - I don't think K had a hand in those retirements.

    Hurley's retirement was for breaking the NCAA record for assists, mentioned in the thread above.
    Shelden William's became Duke's leader in rebounds and blocks.

    This has been discussed repeatedly before, so I'm not sure it's worth discussing again. If Grayson is alpha next year and can get some serious (good) publicity, he could win NPOY - he is certainly a candidate for it - he of course will have his jersey retired.

    However, if we're sitting here a year from now and he's had an identical season (2nd team all-american) and we've been to a final four/natty (knock on wood!), then I don't think we should get our hopes up. Grayson will need something of numerical significance to hang his hat on. How does he get there? I WANT him to get there, as it means very good things for the team, but he needs to improve his game and get to this level.

    It's very clear that Grayson is the leader of all our hearts, which is great too!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    I think some of these examples are before K's time, so I don't think we can apply them here, but I read somewhere on goDuke.com that a player:

    1) MUST GRADUATE

    Then

    1) Win a National Award, OR
    2) Break an NCAA Record, OR
    3) Win an Olympic Gold Medal

    Mullins and Gminski we should remove from this list, K did not decide their jersey retirement. But according to this list Amaker and Wojo should also be retired.

    I was always told that Carrawell did not graduate until much later (after his professional career was over). I remember hearing that K would not even hang the banners the team earned from Carrawell's senior year (2000) until he graduated (I'm not sure if this is true, but definitely urban legend while I was at Duke).
    Jeff Mullins won an Olympic gold medal in 1964.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    Gminski and Mullins were before K era - I don't think K had a hand in those retirements.
    This is not exactly so. AD Eddie Cameron had declared that no number would be retired after Groat. That number, 10, was retired in 1952. Bubas arrived in 1959 and his best players were Heyman, Mullins, Verga and Marin. Cameron's rule was not challenged. AD Butters proved to be a bit less restrictive about Cameron's rule. Under Bill Foster the rule had been broken with Gminski's 1980 retirement.

    Butters later hired Krzyzewski. K's first retirement candidate was Dawkins in 1986, followed by Ferry in 1989. At that point, a question arose whether post-Cameron players other than Gminski should be considered. After all, some of them were pretty great. K consulted with Bubas on the issue. Bubas recommended both Heyman and Mullins, a devastating duo. So, in 1990, K decided to retire Heyman's number (25). He had been the consensus POY in 1963 and clearly deserved it. K later retired Mullins's number (44) in 1994. There remains a movement to retire Verga's number. As far as honors are concerned, Heyman's POY stands alone, though the others from that era were honored as AAs, consensus or not.

    But the fact remains, K was indeed involved in the Jersey retirements of Heyman and Mullins, albeit with a push from Bubas.
    Last edited by Jim3k; 05-27-2016 at 03:04 AM.

  8. #8
    This is so not the thread for this...

    Anyway. Awards matter, but career numbers also matter.

    Looking at K ERA retirements
    Hear are some numbers for each
    Key: Player - Stat (Career Rank at Graduation)[Current Rank All Time]

    Dawkins - Pts (1)[2] - Assts [6]
    Ferry - Pts (3)[6] - Rbs [8] - Assts [8]
    Laettner - Pts (2)[3] - Rbs (2)[3] - Blks (3)[6] - Stls [4]
    Hurley - Assts (1)[1] - Stls [9]
    Hill - Pts (9)[14] - Asts [10] - Blocks [7] - Stls [6]
    Battier - Pts (9)[12] - Steals (1)[2] - Blocks [5]
    J. Williams - Pts (6)[8] - Assts (3)[4] - Stls (4)[5] IN THREE SEASONS!!
    S. Williams - Rbs (1)[1] - Blks [1]
    Redick - Pts (1)[1] - 3s (1)[1]

    All these guys except JJ had/have top 10 numbers in multiple categories. Reddick is the Points LEADER you have to retire that jersey.

    Brand may have been NPOY but the numbers aren't there.
    Singler has the numbers but no National anything.

    Please don't forget that numbers matter.

    If Grayson were to get a jersey retired, he probably needs to stay 4 seasons just to get his numbers in place.
    That said, Three Seasons, 2 Championships, an NPOY, and MIP in the national championship game could make him the first player where numbers didn't matter as much. Wishful thinking?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    This is so not the thread for this...
    career numbers also matter.

    Jim Spanarkel's career numbers are awesome imo: >2K points without benefit of 3 pointers or several extended(>35 games)seasons/>50% FG all four years/lots of steals/fine leader/excellent character as far as I know. I haven't seen any momentum for his jersey to be retired.
    (FWIW, Laettner, Hurley, GHill, Battier and other Duke greats played between 139-148 games in their careers vs. Spanarkel's 114. At his average of ~17.5ppg, those extra 25+ games would be worth ~450points, boosting him well into the upper echelon of all-time points leaders. Part of the "extra" games is of course due to the unbelievable post-season success of Laettner et al(vs. Spanarkel's teams' one championship game appearance)and part is due to the longer current regular seasons.)
    Last edited by -jk; 05-27-2016 at 08:10 AM. Reason: fix quote tag

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Skitzle View Post
    This is so not the thread for this...

    Anyway. Awards matter, but career numbers also matter.

    Looking at K ERA retirements
    Hear are some numbers for each
    Key: Player - Stat (Career Rank at Graduation)[Current Rank All Time]

    Dawkins - Pts (1)[2] - Assts [6]
    Ferry - Pts (3)[6] - Rbs [8] - Assts [8]
    Laettner - Pts (2)[3] - Rbs (2)[3] - Blks (3)[6] - Stls [4]
    Hurley - Assts (1)[1] - Stls [9]
    Hill - Pts (9)[14] - Asts [10] - Blocks [7] - Stls [6]
    Battier - Pts (9)[12] - Steals (1)[2] - Blocks [5]
    J. Williams - Pts (6)[8] - Assts (3)[4] - Stls (4)[5] IN THREE SEASONS!!
    S. Williams - Rbs (1)[1] - Blks [1]
    Redick - Pts (1)[1] - 3s (1)[1]

    All these guys except JJ had/have top 10 numbers in multiple categories. Reddick is the Points LEADER you have to retire that jersey.

    Brand may have been NPOY but the numbers aren't there.
    Singler has the numbers but no National anything.

    Please don't forget that numbers matter.

    If Grayson were to get a jersey retired, he probably needs to stay 4 seasons just to get his numbers in place.
    That said, Three Seasons, 2 Championships, an NPOY, and MIP in the national championship game could make him the first player where numbers didn't matter as much. Wishful thinking?
    While I agree that numbers matter, allow me to expand on your quote regarding Jay Williams "IN THREE SEASONS!!".
    Numbers also mislead.

    If you choose to use career rankings as criteria, you have to consider how many games a player actually played. Or more important, how many games they were able to play.

    Many of the great 1960s players probably had a maximum number of between 75-90 games. Three seasons of eligibility and regular seasons in the 25 range (plus post season) limited their number of games and therefore potential career rankings. Modern players have a possible game count of between 125- 160 games.

    Clearly longevity matters to rafter recognition, but intensity does too.

    Bob Verga, for example, was JJ before JJ was born. Extrapolate Verga's stats over an equivalent number of games as JJ played and you get similar results.

    By the way, I am recalling these numbers from memory...no time to do the research.

    At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules.

    I enjoy comparing stats as much as you, but career stats are but one element to consider.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    Sage, I do not mean to be snarky, but I don't think this is a usual test. Every player who has had their jersey retired has won a National Player of the Year Award. It's just coincidental that the guys who have won the NPOY awards have also been All Americans for at least two years.

    It hurts to see guys we love not get the recognition they deserve. People wanted Duhon's jersey retired back in 2006. Others have wanted Smith/Scheyer/Singler's jersey retired. As an institution, I do not think we should lower our standards than what they are - I do not want to see us become like the University of Texas, who retired Kevin Durant's jersey after he led them to the Sweet 16 and peaced out (well, he won NPOY of the year - the first freshman ever, so there's that)
    Unexpected, you are not "snarky," but you are not correct either. There are five retired jerseys for players who were not NPOY:

    Jeff Mullins
    Mike Gminski
    Bobby Hurley
    Grant Hill
    Shelden Williams

    Plus, Johnny Dawkins was NPOY for one award

    The rest of the retired jerseys were more or less consensus NPOY's

    The two-time All-American standard was often discussed as the test 10-15 years ago. It also helps to have national and international recognition beyond Duke

    Here's where these five plus Dawkins stand per the Duke BB Media Guide:

    Mullins -- non-consensus A-A in 1963; second team in 1964; Duke's first two Final Fours; Duke's first Olympic gold, NBA All-Star and NBA champion; former Duke asst. AD

    Mike Gminski -- 1st team A-A in 1979 and 2nd team in 1980; Final Four; as a fillip -- twice 1st team Academic A-A

    Bobby Hurley -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 1st team A-A in 1993; PG on Duke's first two Natl. Championships plus another Final Four

    Grant Hill -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 2nd team A-A in 1993; 1st team in 1994; NDPOY in 1993; many time NBA All-Star; Olympic gold medalist

    Shelden Williams -- non-consensus A-A in 2004 and 2005; 1st team A-A in 2006; two-time NDPOY

    Johnny Dawkins was not a consensus NPOY but was a two-time first team All-American

    The only player without a jersey in the rafters who was a two-time consensus A-A is Bob Verga, who was 2nd team in 1966 and 1st team in 1967.

    Players you mentioned -- Duhon, Nolan Smith, Scheyer and Singler don't come close to these tests of national and international recognition -- although they were terrific players for Duke.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'BTW I didn't go over the other quals of the NPOY's: Groat (2nd and 1st), Heyman (non-consensus, 2nd, 1st), Ferry (2nd and 1st), Laettner (NC, 2nd, 1st), Battier (2nd and 1st), Jay Williams (1st and 1st), and Redick (NC, 1st, 1st).
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  12. #12
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    As much as it really, really pains me to say it, I kind of like the UNCheat system of retired and honored jerseys. That way you can recognize players who were stars but not the elite of the elite. One could argue that it cheapens the retired jerseys a bit but I like it. Of course, then we would be arguing about guys who are on the fringe of that award.

    Also, I think it might be helpful for the mods to spin this off to a separate thread? It is always an interesting off-season conversation, but it has taken over a thread that should be devoted to another important topic.

  13. #13
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    Just curious, what are the rational and/or stat-supported and/or simply subjective reasons for NOT seriously considering the retirement of Jim Spanarkel's jersey? When I think of quintessential Duke players, my mind quickly conjures up Ferry, Hurley, Battier, and, yes, Spanarkel(among many other Duke greats we've all been privileged to cheer for): guys whose court smarts and will to win allowed them to achieve more perhaps than one would think based on their physical attributes alone. Hoping for some reasoned and insightful commentary-thanks!

  14. #14
    Just to clear up a few items on the jersey retirement issue:

    -- The so-called criteria that unexpected listed from goduke.com are wrong. As I pointed out before, we've had two NDOPY who were not honored. We've had several Olympic Gold Medal winners not honored, including Tate Armstrong (1976) and Carlos Boozer (2008). The rules listed are explanation of why some (but not all) of the players were honored. They are not rules per se,

    -- If numbers are so amazing, then look at Bob Verga -- with a career average of 22.0 points per game, that's better than Redick (19.9) or Jason Williams (19.3) ... and that was without benefit of a three-point shot (and Verga might have beebn the best long-range shooter in Duke history). You might also want to look at Randy Denton, whose career scoring average of 19.7 points a game is better than any K player other than Redick and who is also the top rebounder per game in Duke history (12.7 for his career). It's a shame they didn't count blocks in that era, because Denton would be very high on that list too. BTW: If Art Heyman had played the same number of games as JJ Redick, he would have scored 3,488 career points more than 700 points more than Redick.

    -- K had nothing to do with the retirement decisions for Groat or Gminski. But he made the final call on every other player whose jersey is in the rafters -- including Heyman and Mullins (acting on advice from Vic Bubas, yes, but still K's call).

    I keep saying what AtlDukie79 said so well "At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules."

    As long as we remember, it's about K's judgment ... period. He decides, based on whatever criteria he wants to use.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Just to clear up a few items on the jersey retirement issue:

    -- The so-called criteria that unexpected listed from goduke.com are wrong. As I pointed out before, we've had two NDOPY who were not honored. We've had several Olympic Gold Medal winners not honored, including Tate Armstrong (1976) and Carlos Boozer (2008). The rules listed are explanation of why some (but not all) of the players were honored. They are not rules per se,

    -- If numbers are so amazing, then look at Bob Verga -- with a career average of 22.0 points per game, that's better than Redick (19.9) or Jason Williams (19.3) ... and that was without benefit of a three-point shot (and Verga might have beebn the best long-range shooter in Duke history). You might also want to look at Randy Denton, whose career scoring average of 19.7 points a game is better than any K player other than Redick and who is also the top rebounder per game in Duke history (12.7 for his career). It's a shame they didn't count blocks in that era, because Denton would be very high on that list too. BTW: If Art Heyman had played the same number of games as JJ Redick, he would have scored 3,488 career points more than 700 points more than Redick.

    -- K had nothing to do with the retirement decisions for Groat or Gminski. But he made the final call on every other player whose jersey is in the rafters -- including Heyman and Mullins (acting on advice from Vic Bubas, yes, but still K's call).

    I keep saying what AtlDukie79 said so well "At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules."

    As long as we remember, it's about K's judgment ... period. He decides, based on whatever criteria he wants to use.
    All fair points, I will say that people keep throwing up examples from 30-40 years ago - I don't feel like this is a good indication of what would happen today.

    On Boozer - did he meet criteria #1 - did he ever graduate? I'm not entirely sure. Additionally, It's not clear to me if the "Gold Medal Standard" applies only while the athlete is in school (back when college olympic basketball players were a thing) or can be applied if they earn a gold medal later in life (and really with the NBA Dream Teams as of late, this would be almost too easy).

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    All fair points, I will say that people keep throwing up examples from 30-40 years ago - I don't feel like this is a good indication of what would happen today.

    On Boozer - did he meet criteria #1 - did he ever graduate? I'm not entirely sure. Additionally, It's not clear to me if the "Gold Medal Standard" applies only while the athlete is in school (back when college olympic basketball players were a thing) or can be applied if they earn a gold medal later in life (and really with the NBA Dream Teams as of late, this would be almost too easy).
    You not sure, because there is no such "rule" ... it's all based on people looking at criteria and suggesting reasons that don't exit.

    Not sure if Boozer graduated (I think he did), but I know Tate Armstrong did and he won an Olympic Gold in the summer between his junior and senior year. In fact, he's the only active Duke player to win a Gold Medal (Mullins, Laettner, Grant Hill and Boozer won after graduation).

    So if Olympic Gold is really a criteria -- and it's the only "rule" that can explain K's decision to hang Mullins' jersey in the rafters -- then why doesn't K honor Olympic Gold Medal winner Tate Armstrong?

    (Note: I know that Tate played little for the 1976 Gold Medal team, but Jeff didn't play that much for the 1964 Gold Medal team).

    The answer is easy -- there is no such rule and never has been.

  17. #17
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    IIRC Tate averaged more points per minute than anyone on the Olympic team. The coach was Dean Smith, I think.

    (If I am incorrect, please correct me, although it would be rare for the Internet.)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TruBlu View Post
    IIRC Tate averaged more points per minute than anyone on the Olympic team. The coach was Dean Smith, I think.

    (If I am incorrect, please correct me, although it would be rare for the Internet.)
    You get a gold star on the coaching issue.

    In looking at that list, check out who the assistant was for the Larry Brown debacle in 2004!
    Last edited by Indoor66; 05-27-2016 at 03:27 PM. Reason: Add 2nd sentence.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    You not sure, because there is no such "rule" ... it's all based on people looking at criteria and suggesting reasons that don't exit.

    Not sure if Boozer graduated (I think he did), but I know Tate Armstrong did and he won an Olympic Gold in the summer between his junior and senior year. In fact, he's the only active Duke player to win a Gold Medal (Mullins, Laettner, Grant Hill and Boozer won after graduation).

    So if Olympic Gold is really a criteria -- and it's the only "rule" that can explain K's decision to hang Mullins' jersey in the rafters -- then why doesn't K honor Olympic Gold Medal winner Tate Armstrong?

    (Note: I know that Tate played little for the 1976 Gold Medal team, but Jeff didn't play that much for the 1964 Gold Medal team).

    The answer is easy -- there is no such rule and never has been.
    Okay! You are right and the Duke Media Guide is wrong!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    Okay! You are right and the Duke Media Guide is wrong!
    I don't know the resolution of the disagreement on who retired what, but here are the players and dates:

    0 - Dick Groat May 1, 1952
    25 - Art Heyman
    March 4, 1990
    44 - Jeff Mullins
    December 6, 1994
    43 - Mike Gminski
    February 20, 1980
    24 - Johnny Dawkins
    February 22, 1986
    35 - Danny Ferry
    February 18, 1989
    32 - Christian Laettner
    February 26, 1992
    11 - Bobby Hurley
    February 28, 1993
    33 - Grant Hill
    February 27, 1994
    31 - Shane Battier
    February 21, 2001
    22 - Jason Williams
    February 5, 2003
    23 - Shelden Williams
    January 28, 2007
    4 - J.J. Redick
    February 4, 2007

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