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  1. #1
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    Captain America - Civil War SPOILERS

    OK...you've been warned. This thread will talk about the movie.

    Just got back.

    It was awesome. And I went in with sky high expectations (which is kind of bummer, because I heard how great it was...would have been wonderful to see this thinking it might not be any good). This certainly ranks in my Top 5 Marvel, and Top 5 Superhero movies of all time, and up there with my Top 50 of all time of any kind of movie. Completely enjoyable from start to finish. And believable (which is saying something when we are talking about make believe).

    You know, it's incredible how well made some of these Marvel movies have been. It's kind of like Pixar...they just rarely strike out. I think I would still have The Avengers #1 (because it did such a good job bringing it all together), and Iron Man #2 (because it really set the stage for how these movies could be made with the action, story and humor. But I might have to put Civil War #3. And that means beating out X-Men 2, Days of Future Past, Guardians of the Galaxy and Spiderman 2...all of which were immensely enjoyable.

    So back to Civil War. It should go as no surprise that I agree with a lot of what JE wrote in his review. The reason this movie works is because they pull in a bunch of people, and make you actually care about them. All of them. And they make it messy. You see the arguments to both sides. You see how both sides are right...and wrong. And at the end, you genuinely feel for Tony Stark, because you think, "Man...if that were me, I would kill the guy as well." And considering that there were 10 different major characters...that's pretty damn impressive.

    The humor, while not as prevalent, was also great when it happened.

    And Spiderman - just fantastic. In every way possible. I think it would be great if the new Spiderman movie ended with Peter walking in and finding Tony Stark in his living room...but that's just me.

    So were there parts I didn't like? Well...yeah...three in fact...but all were pretty minor. They were

    3. When they were all debating about the deaths their actions caused (and as an aside, I really liked this aspect of the movie. There are consequences when they destroy buildings...people die. It's also one of the few things that made Batman V. Superman worthwhile), nobody every said "Wait a minute...if we hadn't stepped in there, all of New York would have been destroyed. They could have easily added a scene that discussed that, and then had it lead to the setting of Avengers 2, where people died solely due to the Avengers creating Ultron.

    2. In the airport fight scene (which was awesome)...what happened to Vision. He shows up at one point...and then in the fight he kind of disappears. This makes sense, because his powers are (on the whole) MUCH greater than anyone other than Maximov/S Witch. They should have just shown the two of them holding each other off...or her throwing him hundreds of miles away. Something. They could have even had him watching and not wanting to enter the fight due to his own internal conflict. Instead he just kind of shows up at the very end of the fight.

    1. Don Cheadle's character should have died. Period. He fell from what looked like a thousand feet. That kills you. Don't care who you are. It was lame that he lived and could even walk. Would have actually made the story stronger (because Iron Man would have felt even more conflicted and everyone else would have felt awful...and it shows that when superheros fight - even the good ones - people die.

    But again...these are small complaints. By and large I thought the movie was fantastic. Will definitely see it again.

  2. #2
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    Note, I would put my 2nd favorite Marvel movie as Iron Man. In rereading what I wrote, it seems like I might be saying Iron Man 2. Not the case...though I liked that movie OK.

  3. #3
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    I'm pretty sure that Ant Man getting big was my favorite moment in the entire movie and Tony's reaction -- "ok, does anyone on our side have any game chancing abilities that have heretofore been hidden?" was just priceless. The airport battle was just so great!

    I agree with all 3 of Udaman's criticisms and I thought the exact same thing each time. I sorta hate the blame the Avengers got for New York. Their involvement in no way caused additional harm and, in fact, saved mankind from being Loki's servants. The same cannot be said for the creation of Ultron and the Nigerian explosion at the start of the film. I loved Gen. Ross' line, "Any idea where Thor and Hulk are? Can you imagine if I had lost two 30 megaton bombs?" It does a great job of referencing two key members of the superhero world who are missing in this film and also raising an important argument in the "Sokovia accords" debate. The first time I saw the movie, I found myself firmly on Cap's side but the second time I really started to see some of the arguments Tony was making about registration/UN control. I still think Cap is ultimately right, but the movie does an amazing job of setting up a realistic disagreement and then using the fate of Winter Soldier to set friends against each other. I honestly had no idea how they could make that work, but they absolutely did!

    I had one additional complaint to the 3 Udaman identified -- it took a lot of convenient timing and luck for Zemo to get Iron Man to the Siberian hideout at exactly the same time as Winter Solder and Cap. And why did Zemo allow the dead body of the real psychologist to be discovered in Berlin? The only thing that accomplished was to prove that Cap was right about Winter Soldier being framed. I mean, that almost ends up scuttling Zemo's entire plan.

    Falcon and Winter Soldier in the VW Bug... arguably the funniest few seconds in Marvel history. But, what is so great about them in the car is that it established their relationship so well. Prior to that, these two guys have never been friends. Falcon doesn't have the history with Bucky. But here they are bonding and busting on each other in almost a brotherly way. It is :05 long and yet it is important character development. Bravo, Russo brothers!!!

    It would have been dark, but I would have preferred if Zemo had killed himself at the end. Having Martin Freeman question him in the glass prison cell was meaningless -- Zemo has no additional info to give to his questioners. Zemo's knowing "Did they?" response to Freeman saying his plans failed could have easily been done at the end of the conversation with Black Panther, followed by Zemo pulling the trigger. I think that would have been a more emotionally honest ending. As an aside, I loved Panther recognizing the way revenge had consumed Zemo and Stark and saying he would not let it consume him too.

    Udaman suggests that a new Spiderman movie could end with Tony Stark walking through the door... no no no no no! A new movie should pick up with Spidey learning to use the new, upgraded gadgets that Tony has provided to him. We do not need to go backwards and relive the Spiderman origin story. We don't need to see the radioactive spider bite or Uncle Ben getting killed... been there, done that several times. I love that Civil War had Tony ask about Spidey's powers but Peter just responds, "It's a long story." Lets spend time in high school with Peter, dealing with teen angst while also trying to fight crime at night and make a living as a cub photographer. That is what the next movie needs to be about -- not about getting bitten and learning that "with great power comes great responsibility."

    -Jason "I was surprised there was no mention at all of Nick Fury*. I would have expected him to at least say something about the Sokovia accords, seeing the original Avengers initiative was his baby" Evans

    * - I just remembered, he's dead to the world. Oh well, I still think he could have contacted Cap or Black Widow or Hawkeye.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  4. #4
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    JE - fair enough about Spiderman. And you are right...it needs a fresh take instead of the "how did this all happen." Then again, part of what made him so good in Civil War is that he was the young, naive, friendly neighborhood Spiderman, fighting the big guys and being mesmerized by what he was doing (and against whom). That won't really play with him just fighting off the bad guys in the Bronx...but it definitely could be good to show what it's like to be a teen who's also dealing with everything else.

    And yes, I agree that the guy at the end should have killed himself...and why would they put him in the super scary lock box? He's just an every day average human.

    And Antman as Hugeman was fantastic, as was Tony's comment. I also liked Scarlett Witch saying "you're pulling punches," which was the truth, for sure.

    The scene in the VW bug was hysterical. Not as good as Loki and the Hulk...but damn close.

    And I still can't believe they didn't kill War Machine. I mean he's not a superhero. Just a guy in a neat suit. You can't fall a thousand feet and hit the ground like that and live. You just can't.

    And Vision would have smoked all the Captain America guys if he wanted to at the airport....just saying.

    Negatives aside...I really liked the final fight scene. Very believable, and violent, and heart breaking. And then Captain to send him the cell phone. Just perfect. "Dude - I know we don't get along. I know you probably hate me. I certainly don't like you. But we're all ultimately on the same team...and when you need me, I'm there for you." It's what The Avengers is all about.

  5. #5
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    OK...last comment about Vision at the airport. How funny would it have been for the Scarlett Witch to immediately have used her power and throw him away....and it shows that she throws him forty miles away. Kind of like Magneto did to Wolverine, only much further. It would have at least explained why he wasn't shown in the fight. Oh well. I'm nitpicking, I know.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    I also liked Scarlett Witch saying "you're pulling punches," which was the truth, for sure.

    And Vision would have smoked all the Captain America guys if he wanted to at the airport...just saying.
    So, I think just about everyone at the airport was pulling punches. In fact, that is why I think we saw so little of Vision. Yes, he could have smoked almost everyone on the other side, but he did not want to. No one really wanted to kill anyone else other than maybe Black Panther. The rest of them were fighting to gain the upper hand, but not to seriously hurt anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    I really liked the final fight scene. Very believable, and violent, and heart breaking.
    And you just hit upon the difference in that fight and the right at the airport. In Siberia, they were fighting to hurt each other -- in Iron Man's case, he was fighting to kill. That is why that battle was so much more intense than the airport fight (which was more fun, but did not have nearly the same stakes). When Cap raises his shield to smash it down on Iron Man, you really do not know if he is going to crush Iron Man's face or not. The film had raised the emotional stakes to the point where it would have been possible and believable for Cap to kill Iron Man. Of course, he doesn't, but you can see in Tony's eyes that Iron Man thought he was about to die.

    -Jason "that final fight -- and the emotion coursing through it -- is why I am starting to think this film ranks at the top of the Best Superhero Movie list... I'm still thinking on it" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  7. #7
    Note you could make the same comment about the opening scene - why wasn't Vision in Lagos? He was part of the Avengers. This is a problem that's going to continue throughout the next few decades... are Hulk and Thor just going to have an excuse to disappear like this every single time they need to get rid of the some of the more powerful characters? Is Avengers 8 in the year 2032 going to have 150 superheroes in it? There's something that needs to be figured out. Maybe a bunch of characters will die in the Thanos movies, but if they couldn't bring themselves to get rid of a minor character like War Machine here, I'm skeptical.

    To add to Udaman's three complaints which I agree with: the trailers shouldn't have shown the last fight scene. If there had been no footage of it, I would have gone into the last part of the movie 100% sure that it would end with Captain America/Bucky/Ironman vs. Zemo/5 Winter soldiers and would have been shocked when it was something else. But I remembered there was a ton of Cap vs Iron footage from the trailers that hadn't happened yet, so I knew there had to be a twist to get them to fight again.

    These are minor complaints. The airport scene was the best fight scene in comic book movie history. I can't off the top of my head think of another one that comes close, really. Loved that my two favorite characters, Ant-man and Scarlett Witch, were very active in it. Bonus points for referencing Star Wars!

  8. #8
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    Wander - that's why I try to stay spoiler free. I hate watching previews. Hate it.

    Sadly just the other night there was one on TV and before I could mute it I heard ironman say " you don't deserve that shield" so at the end of the movie I was wondering when that line would come up. Still - I didn't know they were going to fight again. And yeah that would have been a big spoiler.

  9. #9
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    So, I just got back, and these are first reactions, which will certainly change with more thought (or corrections for anything I've misremembered). I did like it overall, but while I think it was by far the best Avengers movie, it does not displace Winter Soldier as my favorite Marvel movie because I thought it didn't really stand on its own as a whole very well; it's obviously the culmination of these films, so I'm not holding the buildup in other movies against it, but I thought it was extremely inconclusive and felt like the middle part of a trilogy.

    Some points in no real order:

    *Spider-Man was awesome, but when people said he was the best thing in the movie, I didn't actually want him to be the literal best thing in it.

    *The airport fight was awesome, but I felt the direction of the first two was really muddled, with lots of tight angles that are normally used to adjust for poor stunt choreography and/or effects. This movie isn't plagued by those problems, so why film it like it is? For example, the stairwell fight played like an inferior stairwell fight from Daredevil, with many of the same dynamics (one guy willing to use lethal force and his semi-partner not willing to let him), but with the tight and very shaky camera, it distracted me from what should've been a great sequence.

    *Okay, I'm willing to give a little bit of a pass here for convention, but seriously, the team showed some real gullibility in their immediate acceptance of the basic setup. Just one line questioning the convenience of it spoken by someone not nicknamed Cap would've gone a long way.

    *The script was by and large really great, weaving lots of stories in without anyone feeling shafted for time and despite numerous side changes. However, I did not buy for a second that it was in character for Cap to keep the truth about Tony's parents from him (or, for that matter, that Tony wouldn't have looked into it when he had a direct line to Shield for the past decade). Now, whether this can be justified wouldn't matter, except that it was the direct character motivation for Tony wanting to kill Bucky, rather than go after the admitted villain who was right there. Ditto, watching the video instead of going after the villain. Once he's apprehended, plenty of time to watch it later.

    I thought Tony actually was pretty sympathetic, but his arc and T'challa's to a lesser degree were obviously set up to parallel Zemo's vengeance arc. But whereas T'challa was redeemed, Tony was left following Zemo's in trying to avenge his loved ones no matter who he had to hurt and/or what the consequences might be (he didn't know this was the entirety of Zemo's plan, but apparently, he also didn't care that much. That's not the hero's arc (even one that's morally gray); that is a villain's arc generally, and in this movie specifically.

    *Which brings me to bargain bin Zemo. Seriously, what the #^*#?! Why can I not get a good reimagining of classic villains anymore? Blofeld, terrible. The Hand, double terrible. Zemo... Why even bother to use the name?!! I'm sure they've created some decent semi-recent CA villains, both Steve and Bucky, inclusive. Just use one of those if you are uninterested in keeping literally anything from the actual character! Ugh, I wish Panther had just let him kill himself, so I don't have to groan my way through any other movies with him, wishing that they had kept a single characteristic from the comics beyond the name.

    Anyway, it won't seem like it, but I did enjoy it. It was tons better than the comics story, and I thought it did a better job of making the team seem legitimately torn on the decision. It had a high degree of difficulty, keeping all the balls in the air, so unless you're the Russian judge, I don't see how you rate it below a B+ at very worst.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    ...

    I had one additional complaint to the 3 Udaman identified -- it took a lot of convenient timing and luck for Zemo to get Iron Man to the Siberian hideout at exactly the same time as Winter Solder and Cap. And why did Zemo allow the dead body of the real psychologist to be discovered in Berlin? The only thing that accomplished was to prove that Cap was right about Winter Soldier being framed. I mean, that almost ends up scuttling Zemo's entire plan.

    ...
    Loved the movie, but too recent to compare it to the others.

    My biggest complaint: calling it a Captain America movie, it was an Avengers movie.

    Zemo caused the discovery of the body to draw Tony to Siberia. It didn't matter that Bucky had been framed, Zemo was counting on the video of Bucky killing Tony's mom to start the final battle - ending the Avengers.


    I'm looking forward to Tony entering into a love triangle with Pepper and Aunt Hottie. I mean, the dude is a genius, billionaire, suoerhero, why not have him live out this male fantasy as well?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Udaman suggests that a new Spiderman movie could end with Tony Stark walking through the door... no no no no no! A new movie should pick up with Spidey learning to use the new, upgraded gadgets that Tony has provided to him. We do not need to go backwards and relive the Spiderman origin story. We don't need to see the radioactive spider bite or Uncle Ben getting killed... been there, done that several times. I love that Civil War had Tony ask about Spidey's powers but Peter just responds, "It's a long story." Lets spend time in high school with Peter, dealing with teen angst while also trying to fight crime at night and make a living as a cub photographer. That is what the next movie needs to be about -- not about getting bitten and learning that "with great power comes great responsibility."
    I couldn't stop laughing at Tony hitting on Aunt May!

    While the idea of a spiderman movie ending with tony in the living room would be neat, I agree, enough with the spiderman origin story. I think they actually referenced fan frustration over this when he got cut off as he started to explain it.

    I also like how they explained Spiderman's changing eye shape on his mask. In the past it's either been ignored entirely or his eyes change shape essentially magically. I get that in the comics its just that the mask is his face, and he's expressing emotions with it, but to make it actually exist in the movie as dilating lenses to restrict his vision due to superhuman senses...neat.

    My biggest take away from this is, as noted upthread, how believable the confrontation is. It doesn't feel forced, they weren't just tricked into fighting. You can actually feel Tony's rage for Winter Soldier killing his parents. You know it "wasn't him" and that hydra made him do it...but man...like Tony said..."I don't care."
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  12. #12
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    So the family and I saw the movie this afternoon and we all enjoyed it very much.

    As someone who was around when these comics first came out, I truly understand the feelings expressed by Doria up thread. Didn't like what they did to the FF4, not liking what they are doing with the Ancient One for Dr. Strange and wasn't impressed with Zemo in this movie.

    I was very disappointed that Crossbones was dispatched so quickly at the start of this movie. At the very least they could have thrown him into a few episodes of Agent of Shield to get their money's worth out of him.

    Now if you recall I first said Cap 1 was better than Winter Soldier and I recall saying something along the lines that they tried to cram to much action into that movie. Of course my wife hasn't let me live that down, as she teases me every time she catches me watching Winter Soldier again and again. I won't go that route this time and I feel that everything included in this movie, despite the huge cast of characters flowed smoothly.

    Some people have questioned the fact that none of the good guys died. While that may be a valid criticism, I believe that only by killing Iron Man or Captain America would you have silenced those critics. The death of one of the lesser characters would have been dismissed as a cheap stunt.

    And finally while I wasn't thrilled with the Zemo character, that was a very unexpected twist they threw at us. I mean is there anyone out there who didn't believe his actual goal was to take control of the five other Winter Soldiers?

    While some say this movie can't be topped, I hardly doubt that. The folks at Marvel Studios keep raising the bar.

  13. #13
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    I enjoyed the movie, it was entertaining and the perfect way to start off the summer movie blockbusters.

    Favorite parts: Ant Man- he is awesome in every way. Most people loved when he turned huge but my favorite part was when he was on Clints Arrow tip. Clint says something like, ok you ready man? Ant Mans reply was "yea Arrow guy Im ready lets do this or something, either way it was hilarious.

    Spidey for all the reasons already discussed.

    Captain America, for me he makes these films, everything about his character is perfect for me.

    Dislikes: Vision and Black Panther. While I like the addition of Black Panther I think his introduction here was a bit odd and kind of forced. I don't know just didn't like him that much, I know he has an upcoming movie so hopefully that makes him grow on me.

    Vision, I just never liked his character in comics, video games or in the movies. He is kind of a bore.

    Finally, its time to get to dying. They need to start killing off people and soon. Soon I will have no emotional attachment to these characters because I won't think there is any way for them to die. I don't know if there is going to be a civil war 2, or if they are going to roll it into Infinity war 1 but hopefully we start off with some characters getting killed off and fast. We still have Guardians 2, Black Panther, Spidey movie, Thor Ragnarok, Before Infinity war comes out in 2018. They may fit in another Civil War Movie but I would assume it would already be announced.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AIRFORCEDUKIE View Post
    Finally, its time to get to dying. They need to start killing off people and soon. Soon I will have no emotional attachment to these characters because I won't think there is any way for them to die. I don't know if there is going to be a civil war 2, or if they are going to roll it into Infinity war 1 but hopefully we start off with some characters getting killed off and fast. We still have Guardians 2, Black Panther, Spidey movie, Thor Ragnarok, Before Infinity war comes out in 2018. They may fit in another Civil War Movie but I would assume it would already be announced.
    This is why I disagree with the top of Udaman's excellent ranking of comic book movies. I don't think Marvel will ever be able to top Dark Knight, because while I think the Marvel movies are absolutely fantastic, they are always going to have an element of being a little bit driven by toy sales. This prevents them from having complete control over doing what is best from a storytelling perspective, in contrast with Nolan's Batman trilogy. I loved Civil War, so this is more an observation than a complaint.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    This is why I disagree with the top of Udaman's excellent ranking of comic book movies. I don't think Marvel will ever be able to top Dark Knight, because while I think the Marvel movies are absolutely fantastic, they are always going to have an element of being a little bit driven by toy sales. This prevents them from having complete control over doing what is best from a storytelling perspective, in contrast with Nolan's Batman trilogy. I loved Civil War, so this is more an observation than a complaint.

    I agree, in my opinion no Marvel movie can touch the Batman Trilogy. Maybe Batman Begins but The Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises are tops in comic book movies for me. Marvel movies are just too cutesy for my liking. Yet still highly entertaining.

  16. #16
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    I liked it, but I'm not sure I liked it as much as everyone else. Was it better than Ultron? Yes, but I thought Ultron was largely mediocre. I didn't buy how quickly the gang was on board to say "Yep, we should succumb to the government and let them control us." No way they just get on board with that. Even with the explanations they tried to use.

    Like Udaman said, War Machine definitely should have died. It's getting to be too crowded and he fell at least a thousand feet to the ground. I think I'm also growing tired of the "Captain America will do whatever it takes to save Bucky" story line.

    Another one of my biggest pieces of criticism, and everyone I know who has seen the movie agrees, is that Iron Man was considerably weaker in this film than in the past films. Suddenly one little knock and his equipment starts failing? He's not able to use his pulse cannons as effectively? He's slower? I get that he was fighting others with powers, but I could see a considerable difference. Also noticed a significant difference in how strong/fast Winter Soldier was.

    I must be one of the few people who didn't love the new Spider-Man. I thought he was alright, but was a bit much at the end.

    For me, Black Panther and Scarlet Witch were the two bets parts of the movie. Followed by Ant-Man.

    It was definitely good and maybe after re-watching it once or twice I'll come around on it a little more.

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