Captain America - Civil War (no spoilers)

[Udaman]

I know JE is going to do his summer movie poll soon (though to be fair he and I kind of jointly started these individually - it's his baby now). Anyway, we should just give Captain America a free pass. Or take it out as an option. Because this movie is going to crush. I've stayed almost spoiler free (disappointed to know a few characters are in it that I wish I didn't know), but the reviews are currently off the charts. 100%. One critic wrote "this is the best marvel movie so far. That is not hyperbole. I doubt they could make one better." Cannot wait to see it.

[Doria]

Yeah, me too. I'm totally excited. I didn't even watch the last trailer/teaser online because it's out so soon, and I felt like I've seen enough from the TV spots that are hard to avoid.

Glad to hear that early reviews are so positive. Winter Soldier was by far my favorite of the Marvel movies, so my expectations are really up for this one. While I have read the comic story, my impression is that the adaptation is necessarily going to be pretty loose, so I'm happy that I won't know exactly what will unfold. I'll note that I did not really like the comic book story; regardless, that story unfolded over about a year, so they're clearly going to change it; also, it had characters that are unavailable to them in major roles, such as the F4.

I've really thought that the Captain America movies were the best of the Marvel movies (even with the nearly criminal waste of the Red Skull in the first one), though I have enjoyed most of the others to varying degrees. My roommate and I bought our tickets as soon as they went on sale!

[luburch]

Scott Mendelson from Frobes ranked all of the Marvel Super Hero movies (since 2008 I believe?), including Civil War. http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmen.../#658e8de52acd

His rankings are as follows:
13. The Incredible Hulk
12. Iron Man 2
11. Age of Ultron
10. Iron man
9. Ant-Man
8. Thor the Dark World
7. Thor
6. Captain America: Civil War
5. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
4. Iron man 3
3. Guardians of the Galaxy
2. The Avengers
1. Captain America: The First Avenger

I disagree with most of the list (Iron Man 3 at 4?!?), but that is a different discussion entirely. What I did find interesting was that he ranked Civil War behind the other two Cap films. Early returns have it at 97% on RT and 85% on Metacritic.

[JasonEvans]

Just got back from a screening...

Wow...

As one of my critic friends said when the lights came up, "That is how you do a versus movie." To say that Batman versus Superman pales by comparison is like saying my jumpshot pales by comparison to JJ Redick.

Civil War is the most emotional comic book film I've ever seen. It is a film that recognizes that you do not need Earth-ending stakes to make us care about the outcome of the fight. The film miraculously provides motivation for all its characters (and there are a lot of them) while imbuing each of them with well-defined personality traits and characteristics. You feel a tremendous connection to these characters and you truly care about what they are doing. Heck, I think the film is more an emotional drama than an action flick.

But, the action is top-notch. By pitting our heroes against each other, we care about every blow (though it is bothersome that no one seems to be affected when thrown against a wall or walloped with a truck). The airport clash between the two sides contains numerous incredible action moments. Spider-man and Ant Man are the highlights of that fight. But, it is the final fight which really steals the show. The final struggle is much smaller than the airport fight, but is rife with emotion. I cannot say more without spoiling some truly wonderful storytelling. I can't wait to talk about it with all of you when we can get into spoilers!!



As for the story, it may be the most complete of any Marvel film. Everything matters!! Again, I don't want to spoil any of what happens, but I will simply say that in a movie theater full of jaded film critics, there were numerous audible gasps at a key moment toward the end. It is surprising, exciting, and compelling. This may be the first Marvel movie that I can unabashedly say my wife would enjoy -- I only worry that she might have a little trouble with some of the backstory that comes from other movies, though even if you have no idea who any of these characters are, you are swiftly drawn into the story and into caring about them.

Lastly, there is humor -- less of it than we had in Avengers and the Iron Man films, but there are several great moments of levity that lighten the mood. One line, between Bucky and the Falcon, had me howling as much as any line in the history of Marvel movies.

I need to think on it a bit more to decide where Civil War falls in the pantheon. It is tough to top Avengers or Winter Soldier and I need to germinate on this one a bit longer. It is certainly among the best comic book movies ever made, that much is certain. If you are even a mild fan of this genre, you will adore it and probably want to watch it multiple times.

-Jason "I know the haughty Academy would never go there, but I think this flick would be deserving of a best screenplay nomination... that's how good I think the script was" Evans

[Doria]

It is a film that recognizes that you do not need Earth-ending stakes to make us care about the outcome of the fight. The film miraculously provides motivation for all its characters (and there are a lot of them) while imbuing each of them with well-defined personality traits and characteristics. You feel a tremendous connection to these characters and you truly care about what they are doing. Heck, I think the film is more an emotional drama than an action flick.

Personally, I find it much harder in a movie to care about Earth-ending stakes. Generally, the suspension of disbelief is much higher, and that notwithstanding, I have a very hard time reacting emotionally to a film whose ostensible crux is something that I can only relate to in an allegorical or attenuated manner.

NB: I like a lot of genre films, superhero and sci-fi films included, so I say this while also attesting to my enjoyment of many, many films that fall into this category; I'm simply saying that my emotional involvement is a harder sell. But I don't really have to be emotionally involved to enjoy a summer movie--it just increases enjoyment.

So I'm glad to hear an anecdotal account of someone liking it, aside from all the professional reviews. I'm very excited to see it.

[bjornolf]

Is the after credits scene good? What does it point to?

[Doria]

Erm, it was brought to my admittedly not very focused attention that you are a semi-pro, Jason (I have no idea what you do for a living). I hope you did not take offense to my characterization of your comments on the film. I had read the review as being a more personal reaction, but that was not meant to imply anything regarding your professional status. If it didn't come off that way, mea culpa!

(While I say "mea culpa," I also totally blame my trying to do work, surf the web, and keep up with the forum. I mean, how could that formula go wrong?! I'm just surprised that I haven't accidentally interjected lines from anime into my posts!)

[JasonEvans]

Erm, it was brought to my admittedly not very focused attention that you are a semi-pro, Jason (I have no idea what you do for a living). I hope you did not take offense to my characterization of your comments on the film. I had read the review as being a more personal reaction, but that was not meant to imply anything regarding your professional status. If it didn't come off that way, mea culpa!

(While I say "mea culpa," I also totally blame my trying to do work, surf the web, and keep up with the forum. I mean, how could that formula go wrong?! I'm just surprised that I haven't accidentally interjected lines from anime into my posts!)

I'm a semi-pro at best. I go to screenings and sometimes get to write/talk about films for some media outlets (CNN in the past, the Wall St Journal in recent years), but I do not consider myself a critic. I pride myself on looking at films from an enjoyment standpoint. I try to ascertain if a movie would be enjoyable to certain segments of the population. That's about it.

Is the after credits scene good? What does it point to?

As for the question about the post-credit clip -- there is a mid-credit clip that was just so-so that seems to be set up for the Black Panther film. It really wasn't all that interesting though it also closed up one of the mildly loose ends for Civil War. We were told there is also a post-credit scene that was not screened for critics. We all stuck around, but there was no scene at the end of our movie.

-Jason "this is all Marvel's plan to make critics pay to see the movie when it comes to theaters, I'm certain of it!" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Scott Mendelson from Frobes ranked all of the Marvel Super Hero movies (since 2008 I believe?), including Civil War. http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmen.../#658e8de52acd

His rankings are as follows:
13. The Incredible Hulk
12. Iron Man 2
11. Age of Ultron
10. Iron man
9. Ant-Man
8. Thor the Dark World
7. Thor
6. Captain America: Civil War
5. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
4. Iron man 3
3. Guardians of the Galaxy
2. The Avengers
1. Captain America: The First Avenger

I disagree with most of the list (Iron Man 3 at 4?!?), but that is a different discussion entirely. What I did find interesting was that he ranked Civil War behind the other two Cap films. Early returns have it at 97% on RT and 85% on Metacritic.

I feel pretty comfortable saying that whoever came up with that list just put the names of the Marvel movies on a piece of paper and drew them randomly out of a hat. Aside from Hulk and Iron Man 2 being at the bottom of my list (and any sane list) I think the rest of his list seems almost random. No way is Cap 1 better than either Cap 2 or Cap 3. Thor: The Dark World is almost certainly next to Iron Man 2 among the few misses on the Marvel list. The idea that you could put Ultron or the original Iron Man below The Dark World is laughable.

--Jason "this is sorta like ranking Pixar movies... a few clearly at the bottom (Cars, Cars 2, Good Dino, Brave) and the rest are all so good you can rank them in almost any order you want" Evans

[davekay1971]

--Jason "this is sorta like ranking Pixar movies... a few clearly at the bottom (Cars, Cars 2, Good Dino, Brave) and the rest are all so good you can rank them in almost any order you want" Evans

Agreed. But one of the reason's I'm so excited for this movie, aside from the terrific reviews, is the same directing team that brought us Winter Soldier bringing us the next Cap movie. The only slight disagreement with Jason's statement is that there are a couple of misses, a bunch of really good movies that could be ranked in almost any order depending on tastes, then (IMHO) 3 clear exceptional movies.

My list:

Exceptional: Captain America: Winter Soldier; Avengers; Iron Man; Guardians

Miss: Iron Man 2

Good an pick-em based on taste: Everything else.

I thought the humor in Thor 2, which was, at times, really funny (Natalie Portman's interrupted date and later phone call with same date; Darcy throughout; Loki's walk with Thor to escape from Asgard and his "Ta daaaa" when they go through the wormhole; Thor hanging Mjolnir on a coat hook and interaction with pants-less Dr. Selvig)...and the loopy fun of the last fight scene with everyone and everything popping through wormholes made up for some of the uneven parts of the film, and kept it out of the "Miss" category.

[OldPhiKap]

Am I the only one that does not want to see favorite characters fight? I am affirmatively adverse to this movie, and B'man v. S'man.

Seriously, curious if I am in a way minority on this.

[Wander]

Exceptional: Captain America: Winter Soldier; Avengers; Iron Man; Guardians

Miss: Iron Man 2

Good an pick-em based on taste: Everything else.

Good summary. I'd put Guardians in the pick-em category but otherwise exactly as I'd have it. Although I admit I completely forgot the Hulk movie even existed.

Very curious to see if this movie is the start (Quicksilver, whatever...) of killing characters in the MCU, as the Civil War comics supposedly have deaths. My favorite character, Ant-man, is currently safe since he has a new movie in the future, but my second favorite, Scarlett Witch, has no such guarantee of protection. I'm nervous...

[luburch]

I feel pretty comfortable saying that whoever came up with that list just put the names of the Marvel movies on a piece of paper and drew them randomly out of a hat. Aside from Hulk and Iron Man 2 being at the bottom of my list (and any sane list) I think the rest of his list seems almost random. No way is Cap 1 better than either Cap 2 or Cap 3. Thor: The Dark World is almost certainly next to Iron Man 2 among the few misses on the Marvel list. The idea that you could put Ultron or the original Iron Man below The Dark World is laughable.

--Jason "this is sorta like ranking Pixar movies... a few clearly at the bottom (Cars, Cars 2, Good Dino, Brave) and the rest are all so good you can rank them in almost any order you want" Evans

Oh, I agree that the list was definitely...odd. Probably would be a good conversation to have once we all have seen Civil War.

[JasonEvans]

Very curious to see if this movie is the start (Quicksilver, whatever...) of killing characters in the MCU, as the Civil War comics supposedly have deaths. My favorite character, Ant-man, is currently safe since he has a new movie in the future, but my second favorite, Scarlett Witch, has no such guarantee of protection. I'm nervous...

So, my answer to this will not indicate any spoilers for Civil War. The answer I give now is the same I would have given 24 hours ago, before I saw Civil War.

I think it is worth noting that, in many cases, just because there is a future film planned it does not mean a character is safe. There have been multiple Ant-Men, multiple Captain Americas, multiple Black Panthers, and multiples of many of the Superheroes. Given that much of the MCU are heroes who have acquired their powers through technology (gadgets like Iron Man and Ant Man or science experiments like Scarlet Witch and Cap) it is entirely possible to kill a character and yet have the powers (and name) live on in another character.

Put another way, you should never feel too safe about the future of a character. I would be quite surprised if we do not start to see some "attrition" in the Marvel hero ranks fairly soon. Heck, if nothing else, we are getting to an unwieldy number of characters.

Oh, I agree that the list was definitely...odd. Probably would be a good conversation to have once we all have seen Civil War.

In about 3 weeks, after Cap 3 has been out for a bit, we should see if we can find some kind of ranking poll that would allow us to give points/weight to the movies and come up with a community ranking. Could be fun!

-Jason "side note -- how good is Civil War? There is another screening on Tuesday and I plan to see it again" Evans

[luburch]

In about 3 weeks, after Cap 3 has been out for a bit, we should see if we can find some kind of ranking poll that would allow us to give points/weight to the movies and come up with a community ranking. Could be fun!

-Jason "side note -- how good is Civil War? There is another screening on Tuesday and I plan to see it again" Evans

Could do something along the lines of having everyone rank their favorites from 1-13 and then take the average. Lowest score is the considered the best by the community. May need some tweaking, but it's a thought.

[Olympic Fan]

Am I the only one that does not want to see favorite characters fight? I am affirmatively adverse to this movie, and B'man v. S'man.

Seriously, curious if I am in a way minority on this.

Minority? Probably yes ... but you are not alone.

For me, the big hurdle will be getting over Ironman/Tony Stark becoming the "government enforcer" ... I have a hard time envisioning that (even if he does feel guilty for screwing up in creating Ultron).

[davekay1971]

Jason,

In terms of kid appropriateness, my 17 and 13 year olds are dying to see it when they're in town with me on Mother's Day weekend. My 7 year old will desperately want to see it because her older siblings are seeing it. She's seen, and really enjoyed, Thor, Ant-Man, The Avengers, and the first Captain America. When the older kids were in town we went to see Star Wars: The Force Awakens, and she was okay with everything, including the big nasty alien critter. In your opinion, do you think Civil War is reasonably in line with what she's seen in terms of level of violence? To me, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, had a realistic enough type of violence that I haven't let her see it, whereas the movies I've listed had violence that was either more muted or more cartoonish.

Thanks,
Dave

[JasonEvans]

In terms of kid appropriateness, my 17 and 13 year olds are dying to see it when they're in town with me on Mother's Day weekend. My 7 year old will desperately want to see it because her older siblings are seeing it. She's seen, and really enjoyed, Thor, Ant-Man, The Avengers, and the first Captain America. When the older kids were in town we went to see Star Wars: The Force Awakens, and she was okay with everything, including the big nasty alien critter. In your opinion, do you think Civil War is reasonably in line with what she's seen in terms of level of violence? To me, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, had a realistic enough type of violence that I haven't let her see it, whereas the movies I've listed had violence that was either more muted or more cartoonish.

In many respects, this is the least violent film yet for Marvel. I think a 7 year old (especially one who has seen the movies you indicate) would be fine with it. Almost all the action -- after the opening scene -- is hero against hero and no one is trying to kill anyone else (at least not at first). If your child was able to handle Scott Lang's daughter being threatened in Ant Man or Loki lopping off Thor's arm in The Dark World or Bucky plunging to his death (not really) in the first Cap film, he/she will have no trouble at all with this movie.

That said, there are numerous flashbacks to the "realistic" violence of both Avengers movies as well as Winter Soldier. There are also 2 scenes involving bombings that are far from cartoonish and feel like they are ripped from the kind of terrorist stuff we see on the news all too often (chillingly). This film has some cartoonish violence, but I would describe it more as the realistic kind of stuff you saw in Winter Soldier.

It is also worth noting that I am probably a bad person to ask about kids and movie violence as I let my 5 year old son watch The Matrix with me... to the horror of my wife.

-Jason "he loved it and is in no way scared by it today -- at least that is what his prison shrink tells me "Evans

[gurufrisbee]

Is this movie any good if you never saw the first two Captain America movies?

I've seen 5 of the Marvel Super Hero movies so far and two were meh and the other three were regrets. But none were CA. I hear a lot of good stuff about this one, but not sure it's got any chance of being worth it if I have to watch the other two first.

[Doria]

Is this movie any good if you never saw the first two Captain America movies?

I've seen 5 of the Marvel Super Hero movies so far and two were meh and the other three were regrets. But none were CA. I hear a lot of good stuff about this one, but not sure it's got any chance of being worth it if I have to watch the other two first.

I haven't seen it yet, but I'd imagine the answer probably also hinges on why you didn't like the ones you saw (and which they were). If you saw some of the ones that are generally accepted to be at least good, for what they are, and you didn't feel more than "meh," I'm not sure that this will change your mind.

To your specific question, though, I'd think that you'll have a pretty good grasp on the plot by virtue of having seen five and being an intelligent adult. There may be details, but I can't imagine anything you can't more or less grasp by context.

That said, it probably will hinge emotionally, to some degree, on the CA movies. If you're really apprehensive of wasting the money, you might rent Winter Soldier, as I think that's the best of the Marvel movies (by a margin that isn't very close); if you're really opposed to it, though, you could just Wikipedia the first two movies, to cover the basic plot points.

But I'm sure Jason can address your question in more detail