Pearl Harbor Day

[Olympic Fan]

Can't let the anniversary pass without notice ... certainly one of the most momentous events in our history.

It's amazing what keeps coming up as historians continue to poke and pry into the event. I still haven't seen any credible evidence to suggest the Roosevelt or anyone else had a warning that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. The Japanese messages we did intercept were all diplomatic (we didn't significantly penetrate their naval codes until the spring of 1942) and while they warned of a break in relations between the US and Japan, there wasn't a mention of the target or even that the United States would be attacked. FDR and his high command -- the people reading the Magic intercepts -- were all focused on Thailand and the Japanese invasion fleet headed that way (that would land the troops that eventually conquered Singapore). Ironically, that's what Admiral Husband Kimmel expected too -- even though he wasn't getting the Magic intercepts, he came to the same conclusion based on the info he was getting.

I did read another piece praising the "brilliant" plan by Admiral Yamamoto. I've never understood that -- Yamamoto is always praised as the one Japanese leader who understood America and knew he had to strike a strong blow at the beginning. But his blow turned out to be the worst thing the Japanese could have done. If he really understood America, he might have guessed that his attack was the one thing that would unify a badly divided United States and fill the people with the fury to carry the war to the ultimate conclusion. The Japanese never expected to conquer America -- they just thought that America would never have had the will to fight a long and bloody war to prevent them from conquering the resources they needed in Malaysia, Java and Borneo. You know what -- they might have been right ... if Yamamoto had not come up with his idiotic war plan.

The Japanese blew the attack tactically too -- although that was more Admiral Nagumo's fault than Yamamoto. He was so terrified of an American counterattack that he cancelled planned followup strikes that were aimed at the unprotected oil supplies and the base's repair facilities. Those attacks almost certainly would have forced the US to abandon Pearl Harbor as an advanced base. As it was, all the Japanese accomplished was to sink four obsolete battleships, badly damage a fifth and leave it aground and slightly damage three more battleships. Of the eight battleships hit during the attack, six were later raised/repaired and used against Japan. But by knocking back our battleship fleet, they forced us to adopt new tactics built around the aircraft carrier -- a superior weapon to the battleship in every way.

I have learned one new fact about the attack in recent reading. It's always been curious that when Roosevelt asked for a declaration of war the next day (his Day of Infamy speech) he never mentioned the Germans, despite pleas by some of his closest aides to include them in the declaration. His "gaffe" was repaired the next day when Germany declared war on us. What historians have learned very recently is that those diplomatic cables we were reading, while they did not provide warning of the attack, did include a message from the Japanese ambassador in Berlin to Tokyo in which he described Hitler's reaction to the news of the attack and relayed his promise that he would declare war as a Japanese ally against America within 48 hours.

So FDR knew that all he had to do was wait and Hitler would assume the onus of declaring war. Politically, that was a big help because there was still a segment of the US population that didn't want to fight Germany.

[BD80]

But, the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

It was mentioned in a movie, so it must be true.

[devildeac]

Can't let the anniversary pass without notice ... certainly one of the most momentous events in our history.

It's amazing what keeps coming up as historians continue to poke and pry into the event. I still haven't seen any credible evidence to suggest the Roosevelt or anyone else had a warning that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. The Japanese messages we did intercept were all diplomatic (we didn't significantly penetrate their naval codes until the spring of 1942) and while they warned of a break in relations between the US and Japan, there wasn't a mention of the target or even that the United States would be attacked. FDR and his high command -- the people reading the Magic intercepts -- were all focused on Thailand and the Japanese invasion fleet headed that way (that would land the troops that eventually conquered Singapore). Ironically, that's what Admiral Husband Kimmel expected too -- even though he wasn't getting the Magic intercepts, he came to the same conclusion based on the info he was getting.

I did read another piece praising the "brilliant" plan by Admiral Yamamoto. I've never understood that -- Yamamoto is always praised as the one Japanese leader who understood America and knew he had to strike a strong blow at the beginning. But his blow turned out to be the worst thing the Japanese could have done. If he really understood America, he might have guessed that his attack was the one thing that would unify a badly divided United States and fill the people with the fury to carry the war to the ultimate conclusion. The Japanese never expected to conquer America -- they just thought that America would never have had the will to fight a long and bloody war to prevent them from conquering the resources they needed in Malaysia, Java and Borneo. You know what -- they might have been right ... if Yamamoto had not come up with his idiotic war plan.

The Japanese blew the attack tactically too -- although that was more Admiral Nagumo's fault than Yamamoto. He was so terrified of an American counterattack that he cancelled planned followup strikes that were aimed at the unprotected oil supplies and the base's repair facilities. Those attacks almost certainly would have forced the US to abandon Pearl Harbor as an advanced base. As it was, all the Japanese accomplished was to sink four obsolete battleships, badly damage a fifth and leave it aground and slightly damage three more battleships. Of the eight battleships hit during the attack, six were later raised/repaired and used against Japan. But by knocking back our battleship fleet, they forced us to adopt new tactics built around the aircraft carrier -- a superior weapon to the battleship in every way.

I have learned one new fact about the attack in recent reading. It's always been curious that when Roosevelt asked for a declaration of war the next day (his Day of Infamy speech) he never mentioned the Germans, despite pleas by some of his closest aides to include them in the declaration. His "gaffe" was repaired the next day when Germany declared war on us. What historians have learned very recently is that those diplomatic cables we were reading, while they did not provide warning of the attack, did include a message from the Japanese ambassador in Berlin to Tokyo in which he described Hitler's reaction to the news of the attack and relayed his promise that he would declare war as a Japanese ally against America within 48 hours.

So FDR knew that all he had to do was wait and Hitler would assume the onus of declaring war. Politically, that was a big help because there was still a segment of the US population that didn't want to fight Germany.

Fascinating historical background. Thanks.

(Let me be the first to blame Wilson-ducks, covers, runs...)

[Bob Green]

The Japanese blew the attack tactically too -- although that was more Admiral Nagumo's fault than Yamamoto. He was so terrified of an American counterattack that he cancelled planned followup strikes that were aimed at the unprotected oil supplies and the base's repair facilities. Those attacks almost certainly would have forced the US to abandon Pearl Harbor as an advanced base. As it was, all the Japanese accomplished was to sink four obsolete battleships, badly damage a fifth and leave it aground and slightly damage three more battleships. Of the eight battleships hit during the attack, six were later raised/repaired and used against Japan. But by knocking back our battleship fleet, they forced us to adopt new tactics built around the aircraft carrier -- a superior weapon to the battleship in every way.

Thanks for starting the thread. Pearl Harbor Day should be a National Holiday!

Along with the oil supplies and base repair facilities, the submarine side of the base was to be targeted during the follow-up strikes. American submarine capability took it to the Japanese war effort by stalking and destroying the merchant shipping vital to Japan's war industry. Every plane was scheduled to fly a second sortie against Pearl Harbor after refueling and rearming, but Admiral Nagumo cancelled the second strike due to not knowing the whereabouts of the American Carriers, which were at sea. In fact, the American Carriers were not in a location suitable to launching an attack. As Olympic Fan states, this was a major mistake on Nagumo's part.

The two battleships which were not repaired and used against Japan were the USS Arizona and USS Oklahoma. The Arizona still sits on the bottom of Pearl Harbor and the Oklahoma sank in 1946 while being towed from Pearl Harbor to San Francisco. The Oklahoma was severely damaged during the December 7 attack as she capsized and sank upside down complicating salvage efforts.

Admiral Nagumo botched the Pearl Harbor attack, lost four aircraft carriers at Midway six months later and was in command of the defense of Saipan when it fell to the Allies in 1944. Nagumo committed suicide on Saipan.

[duke74]

But, the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

It was mentioned in a movie, so it must be true.

https://youtu.be/V8lT1o0sDwI

And on a more serious note, here's FDR before Congress on Dec 8th. One of THE speeches in history.

https://youtu.be/lK8gYGg0dkE

[Olympic Fan]

But, the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

It was mentioned in a movie, so it must be true.

We laugh about that (great line from a great movie), but it's a fact that in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor there were many Americans who believed that Germans were flying the planes that attacked our ships. That's purely a function of our racism -- many Americans refused to believe that the Japanese could make good pilots -- the stereotype of the "Jap" in thick glasses was just so widespread. Several survivors of the attack reported seeing German aircraft, including the ME-109, over Pearl Harbor that day.

I found a copy of Aviation Magazine, published in September, 1941, that illustrates our pre-war myopia. It includes a cover story (with a bi-plane on the cover that supposedly represented Japan's frontline fighter). The main point of the article was encapsulated in a subhead to the article: "In a war with the United States, Japanese air power would collapse like a house of cards." The article goes on to describe Japanese airplanes as obsolete (as noted, they suggested that the frontline fighter was a bi-plane) and flimsy. It was a breathtakingly bad piece of journalism by a supposedly respected magazine ... especially since Claire Chennault had been telling anybody who would listen about the quality of Japanese aviation that he had seen in China. But even though he sent detailed reports about Japanese aviation back to the war department, no one there believed him. Very few in prewar America could conceive that the Japanese could develop the best fighter plane in the world (which the Zero was in late 1941), the best torpedo plane (with the best torpedoes in the world) and a world class dive bomber (the Val was superior to the German Stuka, but roughly equal to the American Dauntless).

In addition, the Japanese had better pilots -- mostly trained in combat in China -- than we had -- at the start. Our fliers caught up fast and by the fall of 1942, we started introducing superior aircraft (the F6F Hellcat was the first US fighter that was superior to the Zero and the Avenger torpedo plane was a superior torpedo plane).

So when we were rudely introduced to the quality of Japanese aviation at Pearl Harbor, it was natural for some to ascribe the success to German intervention.

But Bluto was wrong ...

[rasputin]

We laugh about that (great line from a great movie), but it's a fact that in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor there were many Americans who believed that Germans were flying the planes that attacked our ships. That's purely a function of our racism -- many Americans refused to believe that the Japanese could make good pilots -- the stereotype of the "Jap" in thick glasses was just so widespread. Several survivors of the attack reported seeing German aircraft, including the ME-109, over Pearl Harbor that day.

I found a copy of Aviation Magazine, published in September, 1941, that illustrates our pre-war myopia. It includes a cover story (with a bi-plane on the cover that supposedly represented Japan's frontline fighter). The main point of the article was encapsulated in a subhead to the article: "In a war with the United States, Japanese air power would collapse like a house of cards." The article goes on to describe Japanese airplanes as obsolete (as noted, they suggested that the frontline fighter was a bi-plane) and flimsy. It was a breathtakingly bad piece of journalism by a supposedly respected magazine ... especially since Claire Chennault had been telling anybody who would listen about the quality of Japanese aviation that he had seen in China. But even though he sent detailed reports about Japanese aviation back to the war department, no one there believed him. Very few in prewar America could conceive that the Japanese could develop the best fighter plane in the world (which the Zero was in late 1941), the best torpedo plane (with the best torpedoes in the world) and a world class dive bomber (the Val was superior to the German Stuka, but roughly equal to the American Dauntless).

In addition, the Japanese had better pilots -- mostly trained in combat in China -- than we had -- at the start. Our fliers caught up fast and by the fall of 1942, we started introducing superior aircraft (the F6F Hellcat was the first US fighter that was superior to the Zero and the Avenger torpedo plane was a superior torpedo plane).

So when we were rudely introduced to the quality of Japanese aviation at Pearl Harbor, it was natural for some to ascribe the success to German intervention.

But Bluto was wrong ...

Bluto was right, though, about it not being over until we say it is.

[OldPhiKap]

Bluto was right, though, about it not being over until we say it is.

You don't become a United States Senator without a lot of drive.

[Olympic Fan]

Bluto was right, though, about it not being over until we say it is.

I know this is a joke ... but it's absolutely right. And I admit that thinking about it in the context of Pearl Harbor gave me an unexpected thrill. It reminded me of Bill Halsey's response to Pearl Harbor when he entered the anchorage a few days after the attack and saw the smoking ruins of battleship row and said, "Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will only be spoken in hell." I thought about FDR's bold demand at the Casablanca conference for unconditional surrender -- a declaration that shocked Churchill and quashed any hope that we would agree to a negotiated peace.

But what I really flashed to was Dana Andrews final speech from the 1944 film Purple Heart. It's the story of the two crews of the Doolittle Raiders who were captured by the Japanese. That much is true -- the rest is pure Hollywood invention, although they surprisingly got much of it right -- the fliers were tortured and sentenced to death ... and Andrews prophecy of what's in store for the Japanese is pretty close to what really happened to them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au8Ynh-AREQ

So, you are right that Bluto was right about that -- it wasn't over until WE said it was over.