MBB: Duke 85, Utah St 52 Post-Game Thread

[Potato Head]

This is the phraseology that's confusing to me. On numbers, he's not holding his own. I'm okay with that. as you say, he's a freshman at a tough position, and certainly not Tyus Jones. So if he's NOT holding his own, why can't we be honest about that?

What numbers show that he's not holding his own? He's the worst of our regulars, but he's not objectively above or below average.

So lets be honest with that. Let's not say stuff like I've seen so far...that he's the next coming of sliced bread

I think sliced bread is a good comparison to Derryck, actually. We thought it was awesome when we got him, and he's still a really useful player to have, but there's better and more important things out there to focus on. Like how much playing time Sean Obi is getting!

[MChambers]

So I ask this honestly, what is it that people are seeing? It's not showing up in his stat lines.

What I'm seeing is that the offense seems to flow better with Thornton in the game, perhaps because Matt Jones isn't trying to create, and he, Allen, and Kennard are free to move without the ball. Doesn't mean Thornton is doing that well, but he frees others to do what they do best.

I also like Derryck's on the ball pressure, but he picked up some cheap fouls today. Also, off the ball defense still needs some work.

[uh_no]

What I'm seeing is that the offense seems to flow better with Thornton in the game, perhaps because Matt Jones isn't trying to create, and he, Allen, and Kennard are free to move without the ball. Doesn't mean Thornton is doing that well, but he frees others to do what they do best.

I also like Derryck's on the ball pressure, but he picked up some cheap fouls today. Also, off the ball defense still needs some work.

thanks, those were exactly the kinds of observations I was looking for. A counter to the first point is that his +/- the past two games has been the worst among the 7 "regulars". A counter to the counter, though, is that he had a really good +/- in new york. While I'm not a HUGE fan of +/-, it's something that may be relevant in this case to watch going forward.

[OldPhiKap]

What I'm seeing is that the offense seems to flow better with Thornton in the game, perhaps because Matt Jones isn't trying to create, and he, Allen, and Kennard are free to move without the ball. Doesn't mean Thornton is doing that well, but he frees others to do what they do best.

I also like Derryck's on the ball pressure, but he picked up some cheap fouls today. Also, off the ball defense still needs some work.

Absolutely agree.

thanks, those were exactly the kinds of observations I was looking for. A counter to the first point is that his +/- the past two games has been the worst among the 7 "regulars". A counter to the counter, though, is that he had a really good +/- in new york. While I'm not a HUGE fan of +/-, it's something that may be relevant in this case to watch going forward.

Well, he will be up and down as we progress. There is probably no player on this team for which the following is more true: season average means a heck of a lot less than five-game moving average. Gimme strong numbers in Febraury and March, he will take his lumps early -- including the beginning of conference season, likely.

This time last year,e was looking forward to another full season in high school. Now he's suddenly playing Kentucky and Indiana. He could not come early with the other players because he had to finish high school ahead of planned schedule.

Talk about getting thrown in the deep end. But. He will be fine over time, perhaps sooner rather than later. But he needs to run his own race.

[Tripping William]

Can anyone elaborate on the kerfuffle between Kennard and Rector at the end of the first half? I had a decent vantage point in the building, but didn't see the cause of the flare-up.

Oh, and Thornton should take some dunking lessons from Allen.

[uh_no]

Can anyone elaborate on the kerfuffle between Kennard and Rector at the end of the first half? I had a decent vantage point in the building, but didn't see the cause of the flare-up.

Oh, and Thornton should take some dunking lessons from Allen.

I didn't either...but Props to marshall for showing his leadership by corralling his OWN guys rather than what most people do, trying to corral the other team. Might have saved someone a T, either team.

[lotusland]

By Kedsy's metrics, Thornton makes Allen better. He's lightning quick and plays pretty good D for a frosh who came in late. His scoring is better than I expected and I think he'll get better at scoring in the lane. I don't see him as a OAD player but I do think Duke is better with him in the game and, with a little polish, he can be a special player. He seemed to dunk well in HS so he probably just got anxious today. That would have been his first dunk at Duke right? I don't see much similarity to Quinn's game other than their height. Quinn hadn't recovered from his HS knee injury by his freshman year and he played matador defense. On the other hand he was more polished on offense and did not turn the ball over often.

[fraggler]

Can anyone elaborate on the kerfuffle between Kennard and Rector at the end of the first half? I had a decent vantage point in the building, but didn't see the cause of the flare-up.

Oh, and Thornton should take some dunking lessons from Allen.

As best as I could tell watching online, the guy trying to take the charge landed on Kennard's legs and stayed sitting on him while doing his shocked-there-wasn't-a-charge-call face. Some jostling and jawing took place as Kennard tried to get his feet free. Rector was sticking his nose in where it wasn't needed.

[whereinthehellami]

As best as I could tell watching online, the guy trying to take the charge landed on Kennard's legs and stayed sitting on him while doing his shocked-there-wasn't-a-charge-call face. Some jostling and jawing took place as Kennard tried to get his feet free. Rector was sticking his nose in where it wasn't needed.

Kennard was limping to the locker room at halftime because of that.

Nice game by Kennard but I didn't like the 4 TOs. A couple seemed kind of sloppy. He knows the game so well and has a really impressive feel for it. On defense he missed jumping a couple passes by an inch. I see a lot of steals and finishes in Luke's future.

Thornton, that was a tough game. He was not strong with the ball. He loses the ball (unforced) more than any PG I can remember. I like his physical metrics for the PG position and I think there is want to on his part. But I don't think he is a natural point guard. I don't think he sees the angles and feels the game as much as some of Duke's PGs have. I'm hopeful though that he can develop into the PG that the team needs, which in my mind is less creator and more distributor, with a passion for dominant defense. Also Tyus Jones has made life hard for Thornton.

[jv001]

Thornton reclassified back to his original class.

He's older than Ingram and Jeter.

In order to finish up his high school credits, he took summer-school classes through the summer, staying off the court at a time when his classmates were already playing pick-up at Duke.

It was widely understood that he would be behind when the season began and that is still the case.

He is erratic and he still has a tendency to dribble into trouble. But his performances in MSG show that he is a big-time talent and a player that Duke very much needs.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to write off a true freshman in November. Thornton will be a major part of any success Duke will have this season.

I agree 100%. Thornton is a freshman playing for one of the big time college basketball programs. His confidence is up and down and that's the norm for most freshman. Let's let this young man grow and I'm sure Coach K knows how to handle the situation. GoDuke!

[MChambers]

Thornton, that was a tough game. He was not strong with the ball. He loses the ball (unforced) more than any PG I can remember. I like his physical metrics for the PG position and I think there is want to on his part. But I don't think he is a natural point guard. I don't think he sees the angles and feels the game as much as some of Duke's PGs have. I'm hopeful though that he can develop into the PG that the team needs, which in my mind is less creator and more distributor, with a passion for dominant defense. Also Tyus Jones has made life hard for Thornton.

Maybe, but Coach K has found a way to win with nontraditional point guards. Luckily, Ingram and Kennard are good ball handlers and passers, so I think having great passing from Thornton isn't necessary for Duke to be really good.

[Li_Duke]

By Kedsy's metrics, Thornton makes Allen better. He's lightning quick and plays pretty good D for a frosh who came in late. His scoring is better than I expected and I think he'll get better at scoring in the lane. I don't see him as a OAD player but I do think Duke is better with him in the game and, with a little polish, he can be a special player. He seemed to dunk well in HS so he probably just got anxious today. That would have been his first dunk at Duke right? I don't see much similarity to Quinn's game other than their height. Quinn hadn't recovered from his HS knee injury by his freshman year and he played matador defense. On the other hand he was more polished on offense and did not turn the ball over often.

Everything I wanted to say about Thornton was just said by lotusland. If he stays long enough, he is going to be a special college player.

[kAzE]

Thornton is going to be more than fine. He has All-ACC potential and a NBA career in his future if he stays a couple more years and continues to develop. He just needs to work out his freshman jitters and start playing the game more patiently. I have 0 worries about him at this point, and would expect him to start picking it up and having big games in February and March. These early cupcakes on the schedule are perfect for the freshman to play extensive minutes and get all the learning moments out of the way early.

[Billy Dat]

thanks, those were exactly the kinds of observations I was looking for. A counter to the first point is that his +/- the past two games has been the worst among the 7 "regulars". A counter to the counter, though, is that he had a really good +/- in new york. While I'm not a HUGE fan of +/-, it's something that may be relevant in this case to watch going forward.

Per my bolding, I agree with you that his last two games have been a step back. The coaches obviously saw it too because he was back to coming off the bench in favor of Brandon who had a better game against Yale. I think most of the enthusiasm for Thornton came from the Kentucky - NYC run when he played really well and looked like he was ready to play big minutes in big arenas against big time competition. He's certainly going to have some ebb and flow. Despite the limited sample size, I still trust him more then the other guys when the opponent is putting real pressure on the ball. In those scenarios, Matt Jones, Grayson and the other options (Brandon, Luke) don't look as competent as Derryck. Coach started his "every guy needs to think like a starter" rhetoric in the post-game which tells me that we may see a lot of starting line-ups this year. Back to Derryck, if form holds, he'll play well against Indiana but odds are that if K bases starters off the last game then we'll probably see Ingram, or maybe even Kennard. I would guess that Indiana's guard heavy line-up will bring Derryck off the bench pretty quickly.

Ingram showed some flashes but he is still struggling to figure out what he can do well out there. But he did not force that much today. He does show some ability to grab rebounds in traffic.

I noticed this, too. Maybe we were both struck by the same play, in the first half when he stepped from mid key and ripped on out of the air? To me it's a sign that he is getting outside his own head and offensive struggles to contribute everywhere. He also seemed more active on defense.

Yale and Utah State were an interesting couple of games with the recurring theme of enough steady vet play and enough progress by at least 2 of the 4 freshmen. The team is still very much finding its way. I have to say I like this change from the "we're about as good as we will be all year in November/December" trend I felt characterized the majority of the past 10 years. Losing a lot of one-and-dones will force that kind of change.

We are going to face a pretty desperate Indiana team. I expect a war.

[DukieInBrasil]

Thornton, that was a tough game. He was not strong with the ball. He loses the ball (unforced) more than any PG I can remember. I like his physical metrics for the PG position and I think there is want to on his part. But I don't think he is a natural point guard. I don't think he sees the angles and feels the game as much as some of Duke's PGs have. I'm hopeful though that he can develop into the PG that the team needs, which in my mind is less creator and more distributor, with a passion for dominant defense. Also Tyus Jones has made life hard for Thornton.

This is the thing that i see with Thornton as well. Against Kentucky he fumbled away handoffs multiple times and has repeated that sloppiness in other games. He also, so far at least, seems to have pretty poor shot selection when trying to finish at the rim.
However, he seems to have a solid handle when dribble penetrating and has at times shown nice mid-range shots. His 3pt touch has been respectable, i consider 33% to be the cut-off for decent 3pt shooting, and DT is at 33%. Although he doesn't get credited with many assists, i agree that the offense seems to flow pretty well with him at the helm.
I hope he keeps improving!

[ChillinDuke]

Thornton reclassified back to his original class.

He's older than Ingram and Jeter.

This is not what it's about when people describe Derryck as young.

In order to finish up his high school credits, he took summer-school classes through the summer, staying off the court at a time when his classmates were already playing pick-up at Duke.

It was widely understood that he would be behind when the season began and that is still the case.

This is what it's about. It's about preparedness. The kid wasn't young in age, he was young in preparedness. And preparedness is considerably more important than age in counting years.

This is the phraseology that's confusing to me. On numbers, he's not holding his own. I'm okay with that. as you say, he's a freshman at a tough position, and certainly not Tyus Jones. So if he's NOT holding his own, why can't we be honest about that?

He has more PF and nearly as many turnovers as assists, and hasn't shown the ability to consistently initiate the offense (arguably the most important thing the PG does).

Here's the thing though:
I'm okay with that. Maybe he'll play better this year (I hope so, I think he hopes so, I think everyone hopes so), or maybe he'll need another year. He came early.

So lets be honest with that. Let's not say stuff like I've seen so far...that he's the next coming of sliced bread, that this team's postseason hopes revolve around him, that he looks great...he doesn't. he might not be ready now, he might not be ready this year. AND THAT'S OKAY. Just be honest about it.

TL;DR: it's okay for freshman to not hold their own.

I disagree with this mainly because I do think Derryck is holding his own, but similar to the above (and in light of the above) he doesn't show it in counting stats. To my eye, he is very active when he's in the game. His defense looks as good as I could ask for from a freshman 7 games in. Does that mean he's Quinn Cook out there? Of course not. But that also doesn't mean he isn't holding his own. He has tried on many occasions that I've seen to poke a ball away from behind or jump a passing lane, and on each occasion has been exactly right on his intuition but a step slow on his move. That's something a senior Quinn Cook would do with frequency - I love that I'm seeing the makings of that from a 7-game Thornton. And those passes to Jeter were excellent - too bad the other freshman wasn't ready for them.

Further, the eye test says that Derryck absolutely belongs. He doesn't look outclassed by the competition - he's got the speed, the quickness, the hops, the intuition, and (most importantly) an apparent focus and drive when he's in the game. It's all I can ask for given what Jim mentions above and what I labeled "preparedness." Tyus, regardless of his recruiting ranking, was groomed to step into the starting rotation presumably from before his commitment. Derryck didn't have such a luxury.

If you want to see these results bear out in numbers, you may have to wait a while - maybe even a whole year. The hope is obviously that you won't, though.

- Chillin

[moonpie23]

while there is a seemingly "miss" once in a while, i'll trust the coaching staff to evaluate, acquire and develop talent.

[Saratoga2]

Thornton is going to be more than fine. He has All-ACC potential and a NBA career in his future if he stays a couple more years and continues to develop. He just needs to work out his freshman jitters and start playing the game more patiently. I have 0 worries about him at this point, and would expect him to start picking it up and having big games in February and March. These early cupcakes on the schedule are perfect for the freshman to play extensive minutes and get all the learning moments out of the way early.

I see Thornton as the quickest PG that Duke has had in recent memory and he has a very good handle. With his athleticism and ball security, he can develop into a consistently solid PG or better as he gains experience. I look for him to show substantial improvement during the season and to be critical to our success in the tourney. We have seen him make mistakes along the way but have also seen flashes of scoring ability. He also has the quickness to bother some of the quick guards we will face this year. I am looking for improvement. Hope he shows more against Indiana Wednesday.