UNC Athletics Scandal: Roy/Hat lying to recruits

[Atlanta Duke]

for those who think this isn't much of a punishment-this is the academic equivalent of a sanction on your medical license or law license from your state medical board or bar. It might not sound harsh to the layperson, but it's devastating for the professional involved.

Assuming you care about your reputation I suppose it would be devastating, but since there apparently is no financial impact on federal funding, a point emphasized yesterday by Chancellor Fort, and this is being spun as "an expected consequence" I wonder how devastating it is given the brazen attempts to cover up the conduct.

For honorable professionals this would cause anguish - OTOH if you are a shyster attorney or quack doctor and the sanction does not raise your malpractice insurance premiums while allowing you to continue to practice (since you are too big to fail) maybe you just shrug your shoulders and continue to spout platitudes about mistakes being made while looking forward to a better tomorrow

[sammy3469]

Assuming you care about your reputation I suppose it would be devastating, but since there apparently is no financial impact on federal funding, a point emphasized yesterday by Chancellor Fort, and this is being spun as "an expected consequence" I wonder how devastating it is given the brazen attempts to cover up the conduct.

For honorable professionals this would cause anguish - OTOH if you are a shyster attorney or quack doctor and the sanction does not raise your malpractice insurance premiums while allowing you to continue to practice (since you are too big to fail) maybe you just shrug your shoulders and continue to spout platitudes about mistakes being made while looking forward to a better tomorrow

It would also explain why they continue the long con since the only real financial penalty would be the NCAA fine which could be substantial depending on how much has to be vacated (ie 5K per game vacated, bball tourney money, etc, overall LOIC fine).

The cynic in me wouldn't be surprised if there were some high level discussions at some point on the best path to take to minimize those fines, all else be damned since everything else can be minimized with the proper PR/ESPN campaign.

[El_Diablo]

This is a key point, and I am shocked that we have not heard en masse from the tenured faculty - it is really their ox which has been gored.

Except for the ones who publicly insist that people should just "move on" from the scandal and then get hired by Duke to serve as deans.

[Faison1]

Here is Art's full column, if you dare. Just remember to shower afterwards.

An article like that truly makes me question my own perspective?

It makes me think, "Am I off on this?"

Or, "Is Art absolutely crazy?"

The other thing it does is prep me for future conversations with UNC fans. It's the blueprint for defense and acceptance of the situation. So much so, that I don't see myself discussing it with any Chapel Hill friends (not even good friends).

[hurleyfor3]

for those who think this isn't much of a punishment-this is the academic equivalent of a sanction on your medical license or law license from your state medical board or bar. It might not sound harsh to the layperson, but it's devastating for the professional involved.

Or an SEC/Finra action. Those things stay with you for life.

[Tripping William]

All these puns give me a nervous tick. I'm about to flea from this thread.

[cspan37421]

right, but everyone, including SACS is missing the POINT!!!! they DON'T CARE ABOUT "probation"!! as long as those banners are left un-touched, they don't care if the school burns to the ground.

Look at how every single reference to the entire scandal is finalized......"NO BANNERS VACATED"....


they got away with it....that's not a sigh of relief you hear coming from chapel hill, that's laughter....

Shows you what is most important to them. If Duke was found to have cheated to win championships, I'd WANT those banners removed. I don't care who has the most, if principles of fair play are going to be ignored in the tally.

[swood1000]

I'm curious about the basis for the SACS finding that the principle of academic freedom was violated. I think I understand the basis for the others. Any clue how academic freedom was damaged by Carolina's actions?

One of the SACS elements of accreditation is academic freedom, which refers to academic freedom of faculty.

3.7.4 The institution ensures adequate procedures for safeguarding and protecting academic freedom. (Academic freedom)

Academic freedom is described as follows:

The essential role of institutions of higher education is the pursuit and dissemination of knowledge. Academic freedom respects the dignity and rights of others while fostering intellectual freedom of faculty to teach, research, and publish. Responsible academic freedom enriches the contributions of higher education to society. http://www.sacscoc.org/pdf/Resource%20Manual.pdf

In their November 13, 2014 letter (right after Wainstein hit the fan), SACS made this request:

The institution is requested to define and provide current policies and practices related to academic freedom. Demonstrate how the application of the policy plays a role with regard to responsibility for academic integrity. Identify the elements in the institution's definition of academic freedom that excuses faculty from accountability for academic integrity and creates barriers for faculty and staff reporting academic irregularities.

So there's always a trade-off between academic freedom of faculty and rules designed to keep faculty from doing the kinds of things that Nyang’oro did (which UNC blamed on academic freedom). Looks like from the wording of this request SACS had doubts as to whether the procedures that UNC had put in place to govern academic freedom were compatible with the requirements of academic integrity, though they may also have wanted to make sure that UNC did not go too far in the other direction, at the expense of academic freedom.

The UNC response to this is here starting on page 132.

[Gewebe14]

One of the SACS elements of accreditation is academic freedom, which refers to academic freedom of faculty.


Academic freedom is described as follows:

In their November 13, 2014 letter (right after Wainstein hit the fan), SACS made this request:



So there's always a trade-off between academic freedom of faculty and rules designed to keep faculty from doing the kinds of things that Nyang’oro did (which UNC blamed on academic freedom). Looks like from the wording of this request SACS had doubts as to whether the procedures that UNC had put in place to govern academic freedom were compatible with the requirements of academic integrity, though they may also have wanted to make sure that UNC did not go too far in the other direction, at the expense of academic freedom.

The UNC response to this is here starting on page 132.

This is borderline off topic, but does anyone know if there is are any single good place to look at a whole timeline and explanation of events around the unc scam? Every time I try to think back to 2010 when it started blowing up I can never remember all the great, amazing little side-bars like Mcadoo's paper, Greg Little, Hansbro's mom, Pepper's transcript getting accidentally released and showing evidence of cheating, etc. and I want to refresh. Mostly just to make sure that I'm on top of my facts when "people" argue all that happened is "unc has some easy classes that some athletes happened to take."

Thanks!

[BigWayne]

NY Post calls out UNC and Roy.

So, we’re expected to believe that at no time since 2003 was Williams moved to inquire about the academic eligibility — and the means to that end — of his players. It wasn’t, after all, that they had to miss classes for practice. There were no classes!

[PackMan97]

This is borderline off topic, but does anyone know if there is are any single good place to look at a whole timeline and explanation of events around the unc scam? Every time I try to think back to 2010 when it started blowing up I can never remember all the great, amazing little side-bars like Mcadoo's paper, Greg Little, Hansbro's mom, Pepper's transcript getting accidentally released and showing evidence of cheating, etc. and I want to refresh. Mostly just to make sure that I'm on top of my facts when "people" argue all that happened is "unc has some easy classes that some athletes happened to take."

Thanks!

N&O probably has the best timeline though it is only updated through Oct 2014.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/loc...e15573848.html

[alteran]

This is borderline off topic, but does anyone know if there is are any single good place to look at a whole timeline and explanation of events around the unc scam? Every time I try to think back to 2010 when it started blowing up I can never remember all the great, amazing little side-bars like Mcadoo's paper, Greg Little, Hansbro's mom, Pepper's transcript getting accidentally released and showing evidence of cheating, etc. and I want to refresh. Mostly just to make sure that I'm on top of my facts when "people" argue all that happened is "unc has some easy classes that some athletes happened to take."

Thanks!

The Daily Tarheel's timeline is pretty complete, but it only covers events directly related to the AFAM schedule.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/section/academic-scandal

[Duke95]

Except for the ones who publicly insist that people should just "move on" from the scandal and then get hired by Duke to serve as deans.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to give Duke the benefit of the doubt here. I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis that this individual had to toe the party line at UNC and perhaps was disinclined to continue to acquiesce to their proposition, to borrow a phrase from Captain Barbosa. I would expect that Duke did their homework here.

[swood1000]

This is borderline off topic, but does anyone know if there is are any single good place to look at a whole timeline and explanation of events around the unc scam? Every time I try to think back to 2010 when it started blowing up I can never remember all the great, amazing little side-bars like Mcadoo's paper, Greg Little, Hansbro's mom, Pepper's transcript getting accidentally released and showing evidence of cheating, etc. and I want to refresh. Mostly just to make sure that I'm on top of my facts when "people" argue all that happened is "unc has some easy classes that some athletes happened to take."

Thanks!

Some of the documents are referenced in this thread.

[porcophile]

Now the UNC diehards, best given voice by dopey Art Chansky, are blaming the whole problem on the Board of Governors. In other words, "Never mind that we did wrong, this problem was 'contained' until the Wainstein Report. This predicament is totally the fault of the Board and the Chancellor."

These are probably the same morons who wanted to fire Roy Williams recently, not because he was fielding players who should have been ineligible, but because Carolina didn't make the Final Four.

[bedeviled]

One of the SACS elements of accreditation is academic freedom, which refers to academic freedom of faculty

Ah, ok, that makes sense. Thanks for digging into that. Thanks for locating sources. And, to a much lesser degree, thanks for correcting my suspicion

[MarkD83]

These are probably the same morons who wanted to fire Roy Williams recently, not because he was fielding players who should have been ineligible, but because Carolina didn't make the Final Four.

You can't field a team that wins and you cheated to do that...Let's do the logical thing and give you a contract extension? Maybe they need a logic class at UNC. Wait logic is usually taught as part of Philosophy and Ethics, now I know the problem.

[dudog84]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to give Duke the benefit of the doubt here. I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis that this individual had to toe the party line at UNC and perhaps was disinclined to continue to acquiesce to their proposition, to borrow a phrase from Captain Barbosa. I would expect that Duke did their homework here.

Have to disagree. Somewhat vehemently. I want someone with integrity to lead Trinity. Who will not "toe the line" on something as egregious as what has happened at UNC for close to 20 years. She did not have to sign that letter. From what I saw, very few faculty did.

Real integrity means fighting injustice and crime, whether it's your boss or not. Yeah she can walk away, but she can go somewhere else. Not my University.

I'm sure many very capable people applied for that position. We certainly did not have to hire someone who so recently exhibited either bad judgment or cowardice.

[Duke95]

Have to disagree. Somewhat vehemently. I want someone with integrity to lead Trinity. Who will not "toe the line" on something as egregious as what has happened at UNC for close to 20 years. She did not have to sign that letter. From what I saw, very few faculty did.

Real integrity means fighting injustice and crime, whether it's your boss or not. Yeah she can walk away, but she can go somewhere else. Not my University.

I'm sure many very capable people applied for that position. We certainly did not have to hire someone who so recently exhibited either bad judgment or cowardice.

Disagree with what? I'm just stating that I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis, not that I've made up my mind.

Look, if she lacks integrity and moral fortitude, then I'm sure Duke has realized that. Given that knowledge, if Duke still hired her, I'd say we also have a problem. It's not as though Duke didn't know she signed that letter. That's why I still have not made up my mind regarding this hire.

[uh_no]

Disagree with what? I'm just stating that I'm willing to entertain the hypothesis, not that I've made up my mind.

Look, if she lacks integrity and moral fortitude, then I'm sure Duke has realized that. Given that knowledge, if Duke still hired her, I'd say we also have a problem. It's not as though Duke didn't know she signed that letter. That's why I still have not made up my mind regarding this hire.

Given the Potti Scandal, the lacrosse scandal, and the Kunshan debacle, I'd say this is status quo for this administration.