Deflategate results and outrage here

[FerryFor50]

Dredging this up, as the Pats were "more likely than not" found to have deflated balls on purpose.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/...deflated-balls

[Bostondevil]

Dredging this up, as the Pats were "more likely than not" found to have deflated balls on purpose.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/...deflated-balls

Is that like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" lying about the Ray Rice videotape or like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" guilty of tax evasion?

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, baby! People who read Tom Brady's body language in his press conference as deceitful, rejoice! We were more likely than not correct!

[FerryFor50]

Is that like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" lying about the Ray Rice videotape or like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" guilty of tax evasion?

Probably. That whole league is a mess.

[Bostondevil]

Is it same "more likely than not" that Sammy Sosa used steroids or the "more likely than not" that Derek Jeter did?

[BD80]

Can we start drawing parallels between the carolina faithful and the patriots faithful?

From: "we didn't do anything wrong," to: "look at all the other bad things that go on!"

The patriots cheated. Belicheat promotes the atmosphere of pushing the envelope with respect to rules, which results in cheating.

League is probably going to come down hard on the Browns for this one. Can you imagine the fuss if the league tried to even scold the patriot poster boy?

Any reply from patriot fans should begin with: "yes, the patriots cheated."

[Bostondevil]

Can we start drawing parallels between the carolina faithful and the patriots faithful?

From: "we didn't do anything wrong," to: "look at all the other bad things that go on!"

The patriots cheated. Belicheat promotes the atmosphere of pushing the envelope with respect to rules, which results in cheating.

League is probably going to come down hard on the Browns for this one. Can you imagine the fuss if the league tried to even scold the patriot poster boy?

Any reply from patriot fans should begin with: "yes, the patriots cheated."

I have maintained from the beginning that my problem is with the NFL. The language is disgusting. "More likely than not"? Means absolutely nothing. Either release the information that you have or don't, but quit being wishy-washy losers, NFL. If there is proof, show it. If there isn't, admit it. Until then, the whole investigation is operating in the shadows where people can believe what they want to believe. What I believe is that there is so much pressure on Roger Goodell to find the Patriots guilty of something while at the same time he cannot risk alienating Robert Kraft that he comes out with language so ambiguous that everybody can continue to believe whatever they thought in the first place.

Kraft is backing down because insisting on showing the evidence might truly harm the NFL cash cow. He's thinking with his wallet but not because the NFL has any proof. "More likely than not." What a joke. Put it this way - Spygate happened, it wasn't "more likely than not" that the Patriots videotaped their opponents. So yes, when it comes to Spygate, the Pats cheated.

But regarding Deflategate - any comments from Pats haters should begin with "We'll never know the truth". Unless of course, the NFL releases everything they have. If they do that, and the evidence proves wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll agree that the Pats cheated. For now I will admit that Deflategate has cemented my belief that the NFL is a deeply corrupt organization and nothing else.

And yeah, until they NFL tells us exactly what they have, I don't believe the Pats did anything against the rules. So, I haven't changed my tune. My pointing out other things that are "more likely than not" is a protest to the language used, not a "look at everybody else cheating".

[bjornolf]

Is that like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" lying about the Ray Rice videotape or like finding Roger Goodell "more likely than not" guilty of tax evasion?

At least 11 of his 12 jokes didn't fall flat.

[El_Diablo]

I have maintained from the beginning that my problem is with the NFL. The language is disgusting. "More likely than not"? Means absolutely nothing. Either release the information that you have or don't, but quit being wishy-washy losers, NFL. If there is proof, show it. If there isn't, admit it. Until then, the whole investigation is operating in the shadows where people can believe what they want to believe. What I believe is that there is so much pressure on Roger Goodell to find the Patriots guilty of something while at the same time he cannot risk alienating Robert Kraft that he comes out with language so ambiguous that everybody can continue to believe whatever they thought in the first place.

Kraft is backing down because insisting on showing the evidence might truly harm the NFL cash cow. He's thinking with his wallet but not because the NFL has any proof. "More likely than not." What a joke. Put it this way - Spygate happened, it wasn't "more likely than not" that the Patriots videotaped their opponents. So yes, when it comes to Spygate, the Pats cheated.

But regarding Deflategate - any comments from Pats haters should begin with "We'll never know the truth". Unless of course, the NFL releases everything they have. If they do that, and the evidence proves wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll agree that the Pats cheated. For now I will admit that Deflategate has cemented my belief that the NFL is a deeply corrupt organization and nothing else.

Wow. This response is practically the exact same one that UNC fans have collectively had to their cheating scandal. It is uncanny.

[Bostondevil]

Wow. This response is practically the exact same one that UNC fans have collectively had to their cheating scandal. It is uncanny.

No, it isn't. There was evidence released by an independent investigation. The NFL has released no evidence! (They haven't conducted an independent investigation either.) People keep comparing me to UNC fans. OK, I get it, you hate the Patriots as much as you hate UNC. So much so that you can decide what really happened without evidence. I am not so prescient.

I used Derek Jeter as an example before because he's a player that managed to keep a squeaky clean image despite playing a significant portion of his career during the steroid era. I absolutely believe that it is more likely than not that at some point in his career he used steroids. I can't prove it. I don't want to prove it. But I do think it's more likely than not. So, fine. I'm just somebody posting on a message board. Derek Jeter doesn't have to answer my accusations. Nor should he. But if MLB came out with that statement? Where would Derek Jeter go to get his reputation back? "More likely than not" is incredibly unfair language to use on Tom Brady. Prove it or don't but issuing vague accusations of cheating? Where can Tom Brady go to answer that? What evidence exists that he cheated? The NFL didn't prove anything. The Waldstein Report did. Now, if the NFL does have evidence, then yes, they should release it. But if the NFL never does, they are guilty of a lot worse than cheating.

I am however amazed at how many people on this board can fling insults like UNC fans. That's not uncanny but it is sad.

[Duvall]

Wow. This response is practically the exact same one that UNC fans have collectively had to their cheating scandal. It is uncanny.

They even have their own rogues!

The investigators' report on what came to be called Deflate-Gate faulted Jim McNally, a Patriots locker room attendant, and John Jastremski, an equipment assistant, for an apparent effort to let air out of game balls for the AFC championship game in January.

The report found less evidence linking Brady to tampering but found it was probable "that Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski."

It quoted text messages between the two, months before the AFC title game, suggesting that Brady was asking for underinflated game balls, and that the quarterback expressed his displeasure when they were not to his liking.

It also quoted requests from McNally for shoes and signed footballs from Brady in exchange for deflating game balls.

[Duvall]

Oh, and curse you Seahawks. So close to nobody getting the poll right.

[Wander]

The NFL has released no evidence!

I don't know if I'd call it "proof," but the texting stuff is pretty damning, and at least qualifies as evidence: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...ee-individuals

[Bostondevil]

I don't know if I'd call it "proof," but the texting stuff is pretty damning, and at least qualifies as evidence: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...ee-individuals

I hadn't seen that stuff when I made that statement.

I will look at it. At first glance, my take is this - if you believe he's guilty before you read them, they are pretty damning. If you believe he's not guilty before you read them, they aren't that damning. If I'm on a jury and that's all you got, not guilty. Sorry. I do think those equipment managers should be fired but even then - we don't have any corroborating evidence that they actually did overinflate or underinflate the footballs in October. We only have them texting about doing it.

So - how do we feel about the report saying that the Patriots as an organization and Bellichick in particular had nothing to do with it? I know how I feel. The PATRIOTS didn't cheat!!!!!!!!!!! Not this time. It's all about Brady now. And I maintain that the language "more likely than not" is purposefully vague in a CYA kind of way. Brady can't sue for defamation even thought that's what the report does. I'm sure Patriots haters around here will start discussing if this should keep him out of the Hall of Fame. Have at it.

Meanwhile Ben Rothielsberger is still in the league and Jamies Winston was drafted first overall. That's at the root of my beef with the NFL. More likely than not.

[Duvall]

I hadn't seen that stuff when I made that statement.

I will look at it. At first glance, my take is this - if you believe he's guilty before you read them, they are pretty damning. If you believe he's not guilty before you read them, they aren't that damning. If I'm on a jury and that's all you got, not guilty. Sorry. I do think those equipment managers should be fired but even then - we don't have any corroborating evidence that they actually did overinflate or underinflate the footballs in October. We only have them texting about doing it.

Wait - so is the standard for firing people lower than the standard for believing them?

So - how do we feel about the report saying that Patriots as an organization and Bellichick in particular had nothing to do with it?

I think it's tough to reconcile that claim with a finding that three of the organization's employees, including the organization's highest paid employee, were at least aware of the ball manipulation.

[Bostondevil]

Wait - so is the standard for firing people lower than the standard for believing them?

You can get fired for making stupid mistakes. And those texts are stupid mistakes whether or not Tom Brady knew they were going on.

I think it's tough to reconcile that claim with a finding that three of the organization's employees, including the organization's highest paid employee, were at least aware of the ball manipulation.

So you're saying you don't believe the report? All of it or just certain parts?

[El_Diablo]

No, it isn't. There was evidence released by an independent investigation. The NFL has released no evidence! (They haven't conducted an independent investigation either.) People keep comparing me to UNC fans. OK, I get it, you hate the Patriots as much as you hate UNC. So much so that you can decide what really happened without evidence. I am not so prescient.

I used Derek Jeter as an example before because he's a player that managed to keep a squeaky clean image despite playing a significant portion of his career during the steroid era. I absolutely believe that it is more likely than not that at some point in his career he used steroids. I can't prove it. I don't want to prove it. But I do think it's more likely than not. So, fine. I'm just somebody posting on a message board. Derek Jeter doesn't have to answer my accusations. Nor should he. But if MLB came out with that statement? Where would Derek Jeter go to get his reputation back? "More likely than not" is incredibly unfair language to use on Tom Brady. Prove it or don't but issuing vague accusations of cheating? Where can Tom Brady go to answer that? What evidence exists that he cheated? The NFL didn't prove anything. The Waldstein Report did. Now, if the NFL does have evidence, then yes, they should release it. But if the NFL never does, they are guilty of a lot worse than cheating.

I am however amazed at how many people on this board can fling insults like UNC fans. That's not uncanny but it is sad.

The first bolded part is wrong. The investigation was conducted independently by a large reputable law firm (Paul Weiss) who released an independent report on the matter...just as with UNC (Cadwalader).

As for the second bolded part, regardless of how fair it is to poor Tom Brady, this is the actual standard of proof specified in the NFL's Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules. Under the Policy, the “standard of proof required to find that a violation of the competitive rules has occurred” is a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning that “as a whole, the fact sought to be proved is more probable than not.” This isn't a criminal court of law. Tom Brady will not be executed for cheating, and he is not entitled to a standard requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt. A "preponderance of the evidence" standard is used in civil litigation all across the country and is perfectly reasonable for a situation like this.

I am sorry for pointing out that your reaction was similar to UNC fans' reactions (as there ultimately is no bigger insult than to compare a person to a UNC fan!), but resorting to calling the NFL corrupt and bringing up things like Sammy Sosa and Derek Jeter when caught cheating is similar to calling the NCAA corrupt and bringing up things like Lance Thomas when caught cheating. I do not get why you would play the "NFL/Goodell are corrupt" card anyway...Kraft is one of Goodell's 30 bosses and, by all accounts, a close pal of his. So if anything, it seems that any bias on Goodell's part would run in favor of the Patriots rather than against them. I am not sure what other corrupt motive could be motivating him or the NFL to target the Patriots unfairly, but I would venture to guess that if the NFL does drop the hammer on the Patriots as a result of this, it will be primarily motivated by the fact that (a) the integrity of the sport has been compromised, (b) it was done so in a high-profile manner and (c) the Patriots are repeat offenders.

[davekay1971]

Just wanted to point out that the other quarterback in the game recently saw a serviceman heading back to coach on a plane and upgraded the serviceman to first class. I like Tom Brady because he's an amazing quarterback with a long history of putting his team first. I love Russell Wilson because of stuff like this. Absolute class act.

[Bostondevil]

The first bolded part is wrong. The investigation was conducted independently by a large reputable law firm (Paul Weiss) who released an independent report on the matter...just as with UNC (Cadwalader).

As for the second bolded part, regardless of how fair it is to poor Tom Brady, this is the actual standard of proof specified in the NFL's Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules. Under the Policy, the “standard of proof required to find that a violation of the competitive rules has occurred” is a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning that “as a whole, the fact sought to be proved is more probable than not.” This isn't a criminal court of law. Tom Brady will not be executed for cheating, and he is not entitled to a standard requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt. A "preponderance of the evidence" standard is used in civil litigation all across the country and is perfectly reasonable for a situation like this.

I am sorry for pointing out that your reaction was similar to UNC fans' reactions (as there ultimately is no bigger insult than to compare a person to a UNC fan!), but resorting to calling the NFL corrupt and bringing up things like Sammy Sosa and Derek Jeter when caught cheating is similar to calling the NCAA corrupt and bringing up things like Lance Thomas when caught cheating. I do not get why you would play the "NFL/Goodell are corrupt" card anyway...Kraft is one of Goodell's 30 bosses and, by all accounts, a close pal of his. So if anything, it seems that any bias on Goodell's part would run in favor of the Patriots rather than against them. I am not sure what other corrupt motive could be motivating him or the NFL to target the Patriots unfairly, but I would venture to guess that if the NFL does drop the hammer on the Patriots as a result of this, it will be primarily motivated by the fact that (a) the integrity of the sport has been compromised, (b) it was done so in a high-profile manner and (c) the Patriots are repeat offenders.

My later post corrected my mistake about the first bolded part. "More likely than not" does not necessarily mean a preponderance of evidence. It might. It might not. In my understanding, it more likely than not means that they can get by with saying whatever they want and not face a defamation suit because you cannot prove that statement to be false. And I didn't bring up Sammy Sosa or Derek Jeter because I was trying to point fingers, I brought them up because of the vagueness of the language.

I hate the NFL. The sport of football has no integrity. I didn't watch a single game in its entirety all year, not even the Super Bowl. I only defend the Patriots because this whole thing smells of a witch hunt. It still smells of a witch hunt. Yes, Kraft is one of Goodell's buddies. But my main beef with the NFL is that this investigation is a bigger deal than the fact the Ben Rothlisberger still plays and Jamies Winston was the overall number 1 pick. Integrity and the NFL don't belong in the same sentence. That's always been my problem with this whole Deflategate thing. It gets so much more attention than actual problems. Oooohhhh, the "integrity" of the game.

But the investigation cleared the Patriots as an organization and Bellichick in particular, so, not repeat offenders.

[pfrduke]

So, pretty much this:

http://www.theonion.com/article/nati...uses-thi-37819