Daredevil (the NetFlix version)

[FerryFor50]

How many of you have seen this series yet?

It's streaming on NetFlix and holy cow is it good. It's everything that the movie should have been and more.

The acting leaves a little to be desired at times, and the storyline gets trope-y on occasion, but overall, probably one of the best, or even THE best, superhero TV show out there.

Why it's good:

1) Being on NetFlix allows it to push a lot of boundaries in terms of being dark and gritty. The fact that it's a TV show means there isn't any PG/PG13/R rating scale. The violence and language make this borderline PG-13/R. It really draws heavily on Frank Miller's tone during his run on the comic.

2) The origin story is perfect. They didn't drag it out, but instead made it a series of flashbacks. And the main focus of the show is Daredevil *before* he's known as Daredevil. As an added bonus, you get the origin story of the Kingpin as well. They truly are linked.

3) The Kingpin is portrayed really, really well. Vincent D'Onofrio occassionally overacts a bit, but he's a good fit for the role. And the story makes you question who is really the bad guy in the series all the way until the last episode of the season. They do a good job of developing Wilson Fisk (never is mentioned as the Kingpin) as a broken psyche who has overcompensated for his insecurities through overeating and overkilling. They also show how flawed he is as a criminal in his early stages.

4) The fight scenes and effects are impeccable. A lot has been made of the "5 minute long take" during a fight scene. But the rest of the action is great and well choreographed.

5) No sign of Elektra. This is a good thing, IMO. The mistake that the movie made was that it left out all the interesting backstory of Matt Murdock and jumped right into the most popular/best selling storyline. A money grab. A TV series on NetFlix doesn't have the same pressure to make a big splash and set up sequels.

6) Subtle cameos. They place Easter Eggs from the Marvel universe all over the show.

I binge watched over a weekend. 13 episodes. Mainly because it was hard to stop watching.

[A-Tex Devil]

How many of you have seen this series yet?

It's streaming on NetFlix and holy cow is it good. It's everything that the movie should have been and more.

The acting leaves a little to be desired at times, and the storyline gets trope-y on occasion, but overall, probably one of the best, or even THE best, superhero TV show out there.

Why it's good:

1) Being on NetFlix allows it to push a lot of boundaries in terms of being dark and gritty. The fact that it's a TV show means there isn't any PG/PG13/R rating scale. The violence and language make this borderline PG-13/R. It really draws heavily on Frank Miller's tone during his run on the comic.

2) The origin story is perfect. They didn't drag it out, but instead made it a series of flashbacks. And the main focus of the show is Daredevil *before* he's known as Daredevil. As an added bonus, you get the origin story of the Kingpin as well. They truly are linked.

3) The Kingpin is portrayed really, really well. Vincent D'Onofrio occassionally overacts a bit, but he's a good fit for the role. And the story makes you question who is really the bad guy in the series all the way until the last episode of the season. They do a good job of developing Wilson Fisk (never is mentioned as the Kingpin) as a broken psyche who has overcompensated for his insecurities through overeating and overkilling. They also show how flawed he is as a criminal in his early stages.

4) The fight scenes and effects are impeccable. A lot has been made of the "5 minute long take" during a fight scene. But the rest of the action is great and well choreographed.

5) No sign of Elektra. This is a good thing, IMO. The mistake that the movie made was that it left out all the interesting backstory of Matt Murdock and jumped right into the most popular/best selling storyline. A money grab. A TV series on NetFlix doesn't have the same pressure to make a big splash and set up sequels.

6) Subtle cameos. They place Easter Eggs from the Marvel universe all over the show.

I binge watched over a weekend. 13 episodes. Mainly because it was hard to stop watching.

I am watching it and enjoying it. Haven't gotten most of the easter eggs other than the offhand references to the battle in NY in last Avengers movie. But I'm not a comic book guy either. I have a few more episodes left to see how it plays out.

What I do know about Daredevil is that it is a bit anachronistic in that Hell's Kitchen has been gentrified so much it's not even called Hell's Kitchen anymore. Having it based after the Avengers movie helps them throw the neighborhood back into more of a chaotic environment.

[FerryFor50]

I am watching it and enjoying it. Haven't gotten most of the easter eggs other than the offhand references to the battle in NY in last Avengers movie. But I'm not a comic book guy either. I have a few more episodes left to see how it plays out.

What I do know about Daredevil is that it is a bit anachronistic in that Hell's Kitchen has been gentrified so much it's not even called Hell's Kitchen anymore. Having it based after the Avengers movie helps them throw the neighborhood back into more of a chaotic environment.

I'm a pretty big comic guy, but growing up, I was mostly into Spider-Man, X-Men, etc. Daredevil was always fringe for me, for the most part. But as an adult, watching the show made me want to go back and pick up some of the old storylines.

The good thing is, you can walk into any Barnes and Noble and sit there for hours, reading old graphic novels. :-P

[Doria]

Has anyone else watched Season 2 yet? I watched the whole thing with my roommate this weekend, when we weren't watching basketball.

I know it only just dropped on Thursday or Friday, so I suspect many people who might watch it wouldn't have gotten around to it yet, so I won't post direct spoilers here. Most of what I'll say involves things featured in press releases up to six month or a year ago, so it should be common knowledge.

Overall, I liked the season, probably more than a lot of the reviewers did. I understand that many reviewers preferred either the first half or the second, and so docked it for the half that they liked less. I'll just say that while there's justification to think that season 2's approach is structurally weaker, the plots dovetail pretty satisfyingly at then end, particularly in the finale.

The good:
- Both Karen and Foggy's characters are significantly stronger and given more to do; before I saw this season I would not have thought the latter was a good thing, but both actors proved capable of handling increased minutes and responsibility for plot.

- While I was pretty torn about Ben's death last season and thought it was way early, they advance the newspaper side in a satisfying way at the end of the season.

- Bernthal was fantastic as the Punisher. I admit that when this casting was made public, I felt he looked right, but The Walking Dead hadn't given me a vast degree of confidence in his acting. Now, in retrospect, I think that his handling of this material makes it clear that any failings of Shane's character in TWD should be attributed to the writers. His speech in the cemetery to Daredevil is one of the high points in the season and could have easily been mawkish or flat. Credit the writers also for resisting either a) flashbacks or b) a speech that's clearly meant to be tear-jerking. I pitied him, but the feeling was more authentic than just being teary at a ham-fisted recounting of his tragedy.

- Stick is still the biggest jerk in the Daredevil universe, which is really saying something.

- It seemed a lot funnier than I remembered season 1. This is a good thing.

- There is one other thing, but it would be a massive spoiler, so I won't discuss it. You'll probably know it when you see it.


The not so good:
- I know most people here aren't as big comic book fans as I am, but I was really torn on Elektra. I think that actress is fine, but I admit it--I didn't like the vast amount that they deviated from her canonical origin. I won't go into it too much here, but while I was legitimately surprised by her origin (which is probably a good thing), I was a bit dismayed at such big changes. You could have gone the direction they wanted to with her character, while preserving her basic story a bit better. Note that I am not dismayed that they ditched her brother Orestez [sic].

- The Hand... Man, I'm pretty torn about this one, too. Creepy ninjas are never awful, and they were used effectively to stage some great action scenes. But the mysticism was always going to be a pretty tough sell in Daredevil (i.e., as opposed to in the upcoming Iron Fist, whose origin is more grounded in magic), and a lot of the exposition devolved into mumbo jumbo exposition. It also didn't help that Stick's motivations were all over the map. Even having seen all of it, I still don't know why he made decisions he did, both in flashbacks and in the final episodes; this has a knock-on effect of making Elektra's character worse, also. I hope they fix some of this stuff if they're really planning to use them as primary antagonists for Iron Fist.

- Matt Murdock himself. If you've read the comics to any degree, you'll probably understand that Matt has often been a very difficult character to sympathize with. Many of his decisions are frustrating, and some are outright terrible. He also has a martyr complex that makes him unbelievably arrogant. He's often just a hard character to like a lot. Season 1 kind of downplayed these tendencies to me, but they're back with a vengeance in season 2.

- Keeping his identity secret from Karen is also one of the worst plot lines of the season. Keeping any secret identity to protect people is always a bad story, and the way these stories work out, the secret basically only serves to place those people in more danger because they don't actually realize they're in danger! It's better than the plots where the villains know the hero's secret identity, but his loved ones don't, which is a million times worse (e.g., Flash, Arrow, etc.), but it's still pretty bad.


Anyhow, I still really liked it. It's not as cohesive as season 1, but that's pretty much to be expected. I don't think it would have helped if they'd devoted an entire season to Punisher or the Hand (unless they'd adapted the Shadowland story, which I still hope to get at some point in the future).

[luburch]

Currently watching season 2 now, just finished episode 8. I never finished the first season, I honestly didn't like it very much at the time, but I love season 2. May have to go back and try to watch season 1 again.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Four episodes into season two. I had no preconceived ideas, as I never read the comic, but I thoroughly enjoyed season one and the set up, and season two is following up nicely.

I feel like the first few episodes of season two are rather ignoring (forgetting?) his blindness. Seems to take his ability to "see" for granted rather than the way season one was careful to explain how friggin phenomenal his abilities are at compensation.

Good show. Borderline great show. I enjoy it a lot. I look forward to finishing season two now that silly basketball is over.

[Doria]

Four episodes into season two. I had no preconceived ideas, as I never read the comic, but I thoroughly enjoyed season one and the set up, and season two is following up nicely.

I feel like the first few episodes of season two are rather ignoring (forgetting?) his blindness. Seems to take his ability to "see" for granted rather than the way season one was careful to explain how friggin phenomenal his abilities are at compensation.

Good show. Borderline great show. I enjoy it a lot. I look forward to finishing season two now that silly basketball is over.

Yeah, I forgot the blindness issue. They really waffled with it over this season. I accept a fair amount of "DD super senses," and even like that they don't inundate us with scenes to show it (a la the movie). But sometimes, he "saw" things I didn't think were at all consistent with his previous displays of his senses. It's almost like he could read at times, and at least once, he appeared to be able to hear across the entire city. He isn't Superman, for crying out loud.

It wasn't a deal breaker for me, especially because super hero stuff routinely requires advanced degrees of suspension of disbelief, but I hope they tone that down moving forward. There are other ways to advance the plot.

Again, I think it's often an inconsistent show, but its good episodes are very, very good, in my opinion.

[duke74]

I have never been a DD fan, but have found this thread interesting.

This came on my FB feed, FWIW. Deals with season 2. http://io9.gizmodo.com/8-things-we-l...source=taboola

Probably spoilers...

[Doria]

I have never been a DD fan, but have found this thread interesting.

This came on my FB feed, FWIW. Deals with season 2. http://io9.gizmodo.com/8-things-we-l...source=taboola

Probably spoilers...

Definitely spoilers, but that was a largely fair article. I think they missed a couple things, but those were minor.

I disagreed about the handling of Elektra, and thought that the themes they were trying to deal with were extremely heavy-handed (ugh) and unpersuasive. But I thought that, by and large, the actress did her best to make some of the less appealing subject matter "work," or at least easier to ignore.

And they reminded me that I neglected to say that I, too, disliked the Murdoch courtroom scene. Terrible! And why the prosecution did not object, as he apparently launched into his summation in the middle of actual testimony, will forever remain a mystery. Didn't particularly mind him treating the witness as hostile, I guess, but it went nowhere, anyway.

Of course, Murdoch has always been a dreadful lawyer, even in concept, since his powers essentially make him a living unfair advantage/surprise. But the comics have rarely been very interested in the legal side, anyhow.

Otherwise, pretty much had the same reactions they did. Nice article. Thanks for posting.

[swood1000]

I watched the first three episodes, having been alerted to it by this thread. I must have missed something, though, because I don't remember an explanation of how he is able to fight like that. Doesn't he at least need to be bitten by a radioactive bat or something like that in order to get the heightened sensory abilities? Do we assume it was the result of the chemicals that caused his blindness in the first place?

Also, I agree that the fight scenes are well done, but each fight he is involved in seems to take the same time and require the same amount of effort on his part whether he is fighting one person or ten. In a way it's starting to remind me a little of the Sopranos. After watching three episodes of that it began to seem like the violence scenes were gratuitous, as if viewers were demanding such scenes and so they were added in with regularity and without necessarily being called for by the plot, giving them a repetitive character.

[ncexnyc]

I guess getting bounced from the tournament Thursday night did have a perk. I spent my newly found free time binge watching both seasons of Daredevil and I'm glad I did.

The creators of this show did a great job of using season one as a table setter for this show and took the time to flesh out the Daredevil universe for the viewers. I also believe they didn't go over the top with Daredevil's powers in the first season, which was refreshing.

Season two amped up the action and the show definitely goes into a more comic book movie direction, but again it's not anything over the top. As Doria has already stated Matt Murdock can be a very annoying character, but then that's part of our attachment to him. He's noble and has a code which is very difficult to adhere to, much like Batman.

Watched the first episode of Jessica Jones this morning and will see how that show plays out. Picking up Netflix has been a good move, as I definitely love binge watching shows.

[elvis14]

I guess getting bounced from the tournament Thursday night did have a perk. I spent my newly found free time binge watching both seasons of Daredevil and I'm glad I did.

The creators of this show did a great job of using season one as a table setter for this show and took the time to flesh out the Daredevil universe for the viewers. I also believe they didn't go over the top with Daredevil's powers in the first season, which was refreshing.

Season two amped up the action and the show definitely goes into a more comic book movie direction, but again it's not anything over the top. As Doria has already stated Matt Murdock can be a very annoying character, but then that's part of our attachment to him. He's noble and has a code which is very difficult to adhere to, much like Batman.

Watched the first episode of Jessica Jones this morning and will see how that show plays out. Picking up Netflix has been a good move, as I definitely love binge watching shows.

I've been on vacation for a few days and have been watching season 2. I think I'm on episode 13. Overall I really like it. Matt can be annoying but I still generally like him. I do have one issue that's bothering me. I can understand having a code that keeps you from just killing criminals (not wanting to be judge, jury and executioner). So I'm glad Matt is not out in the city killing guys that are mugging old ladies and stealing cars. That said when he's fighting The Hand and there's 15 guys with swords trying to kill him (or anyone he's fighting with) I think it's ridiculous to try and stick to the "I won't kill thing". It just doesn't fit. There's a difference between busing criminals and not killing them and be in a life for death fight where you're the only one that could die. He could learn a little from Elektra.

Hope you like Jessica Jones, I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to season 2.

[ncexnyc]

I've been on vacation for a few days and have been watching season 2. I think I'm on episode 13. Overall I really like it. Matt can be annoying but I still generally like him. I do have one issue that's bothering me. I can understand having a code that keeps you from just killing criminals (not wanting to be judge, jury and executioner). So I'm glad Matt is not out in the city killing guys that are mugging old ladies and stealing cars. That said when he's fighting The Hand and there's 15 guys with swords trying to kill him (or anyone he's fighting with) I think it's ridiculous to try and stick to the "I won't kill thing". It just doesn't fit. There's a difference between busing criminals and not killing them and be in a life for death fight where you're the only one that could die. He could learn a little from Elektra.

Hope you like Jessica Jones, I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to season 2.

My binge continues and I'm up to episode 8. It's nice to have taken a week off to hang with my son during Easter Break.

[Doria]

I watched the first three episodes, having been alerted to it by this thread. I must have missed something, though, because I don't remember an explanation of how he is able to fight like that. Doesn't he at least need to be bitten by a radioactive bat or something like that in order to get the heightened sensory abilities? Do we assume it was the result of the chemicals that caused his blindness in the first place?

Yes, the radioactive chemicals caused him to have supersenses in both the comics and movie/TV versions. I think the rule of thumb to apply for Marvel is "atomic"=superpowers. The TV series didn't show him using his super hearing to basically simulate sight, like they did in a cheesy scene in the movie, but he basically can do that. I won't even touch the "super smell" he used in season 2, which was logical but... Yeah, I never needed to see Matt visibly sniffing the air like a bloodhound.

I've been on vacation for a few days and have been watching season 2. I think I'm on episode 13. Overall I really like it. Matt can be annoying but I still generally like him. I do have one issue that's bothering me. I can understand having a code that keeps you from just killing criminals (not wanting to be judge, jury and executioner). So I'm glad Matt is not out in the city killing guys that are mugging old ladies and stealing cars. That said when he's fighting The Hand and there's 15 guys with swords trying to kill him (or anyone he's fighting with) I think it's ridiculous to try and stick to the "I won't kill thing". It just doesn't fit. There's a difference between busing criminals and not killing them and be in a life for death fight where you're the only one that could die. He could learn a little from Elektra.

Well, I'm kind of in the middle on this issue. I mean, I've always thought it was kind of ridiculous to think that, say, Batman might kill the Joker but then immediately slide down a slippery slope into becoming a serial killer. And I do agree that Matt might have taken out some of those ninjas that were attacking him. But I think it's also untrue that if he goes to bust up, say, some drug dealers who might reasonably be expected to have huge numbers and probably automatic weapons, you could argue self-defense there, since he was looking for a fight. Likewise, when he infiltrates the Hand's base, I might feel a little differently about killer mode being set to "on" than when the Hand attacks him unprovoked, say at the big hole Elektra and he were investigating. I guess I'm just saying, some kind of happy medium might be found.

Note that I'm also not sure if I feel that the prospective immortality of his opponents affects or would affect my feelings. Certainly, these guys didn't really seem as immortal as some of them in the comics, anyway (nor did they turn into sand...).

My binge continues and I'm up to episode 8. It's nice to have taken a week off to hang with my son during Easter Break.

Have fun with your son!

[Troublemaker]

- There is one other thing, but it would be a massive spoiler, so I won't discuss it. You'll probably know it when you see it.

The not so good:
- I know most people here aren't as big comic book fans as I am, but I was really torn on Elektra. I think that actress is fine, but I admit it--I didn't like the vast amount that they deviated from her canonical origin. I won't go into it too much here, but while I was legitimately surprised by her origin (which is probably a good thing), I was a bit dismayed at such big changes. You could have gone the direction they wanted to with her character, while preserving her basic story a bit better. Note that I am not dismayed that they ditched her brother Orestez [sic].

Yes, I wasn't happy about the changes either. For one thing, they ruined...

Spoiler!

... a pretty iconic death scene from the comics.

I suppose they could still do this scene in the future. Obviously Bullseye will be introduced at some point, and Elektra will be resurrected. But the impact won't be the same.

I don't require comic book movies and TV shows to follow comic book canon. But major deviations (character's background, iconic pages/scenes) need to either serve some obvious storytelling purpose within the context of the TV/movie universe OR improve on the source material.

Making Elektra the "Black Sky" seemed to be a dopey storyline to me. (If she is the Hand's master, why couldn't she have just ordered them to stand down? They serve her, but they will only follow evil orders? So dopey.) And having her die while fighting a dopey retread villain from season 1 in Nobu was also quite underwhelming. We should've had this in Season 3:

- Bernthal was fantastic as the Punisher. I admit that when this casting was made public, I felt he looked right, but The Walking Dead hadn't given me a vast degree of confidence in his acting. Now, in retrospect, I think that his handling of this material makes it clear that any failings of Shane's character in TWD should be attributed to the writers. His speech in the cemetery to Daredevil is one of the high points in the season and could have easily been mawkish or flat. Credit the writers also for resisting either a) flashbacks or b) a speech that's clearly meant to be tear-jerking. I pitied him, but the feeling was more authentic than just being teary at a ham-fisted recounting of his tragedy.

Totally agree. Punisher was great. I hope he gets a spinoff. (Not sure what the Marvel TV plans are.)

Kingpin's episodes in the middle of the season were also great. This show has done the major antagonists properly. Bernthal and D'Onofrio were terrific.

- While I was pretty torn about Ben's death last season and thought it was way early, they advance the newspaper side in a satisfying way at the end of the season.

Yeah, I agree that Urich's death came way too early. To me, Urich is almost as important a part of the DD universe as Foggy or Karen.

Although the death I was most disappointed in season 1 was Wesley, Fisk's right-hand man. He wasn't an important character in the comics (from what I recall), but the TV version was an amazing henchman. Loved that character.

[Doria]

I confess I may not have been paying 100% attention to all episodes, but what exactly is black sky?! Matt found a kid in season 1 who was a black sky, too, right? So there can be multiple ones? I realize it's probably not too important in itself per se, but...

Also, I agree, Troublemaker, that bringing Nobu back and his eventual role was a little weak. I mean, he's clearly a version of the guy who, canonically speaking, did found the Hand, but this version of him was uninspired. His baffling motives, as you pointed out in the spoilers, didn't help the cause. He was basically just a walking plot mechanic.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just finished season two. I agree with the general sentiment here... individual episodes were very good, acting was good, new characters were excellent... the overarcing story was mostly silly.

The Punisher was stupendous.