Game of Thrones 2015 (TV Spoilers, No Book Spoliers!)

[Bostondevil]

What happened to Sansa was disturbing in the extreme, but, I believe her claim to Myranda - you can't frighten her. I think she knew she was in for a rough time, hence the hesitation at the wedding ceremony, and I think it might even be worse than she was geared up for, but, I also think she knows she'll have to endure some bad stuff to come out the other side. She's playing the game now too and she's got a long con goal in mind. She has support around her, she knows it, but she would have tipped her hand way too early to refuse to marry Ramsay. She also knows that physically fighting him at this stage will not end well for her. She has been in an (expletive deleted) sandwich situation for a long time now. I am not buying the total victim narrative. She's going to keep her cards close to her chest and maybe even feign more distress than she actually feels to encourage Ramsay to believe he has the upper hand. My money is on Sansa in the end. She might need help in her own rescue, but she won't be sitting back waiting for it to happen. We have yet to see her try to make Ramsay her own. She's had a long time to practice concealing what she really feels.

[ncexnyc]

Some interesting thoughts on last night's episode.

Ramsey is a sadist, pure and simple. Did all of you expect him to turn into a loving husband? Was the scene extreme? Yes it was, but this show has never been one to pull its punches.

Sansa seemed to be making a shift from an innocent into a player, especially when she dyed her hair, however when see washed the black out I think that should have told you something.

And for all of you hoping for Ramsey to get his just reward, well you might have to wait awhile as the bad guys continue to roll season after season and it takes awhile for justice to be served.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

After a few days to let that episode stew, I don't think it was the act that really bothered me about the final scene of this episode. Afterall its not like this is the first horrible thing to happen in this show. Its more of who it has happened to, I think a lot of people have become protective of fictional character Sansa. The fact that it happened to her after we have known her and watched all these other bad things happen to her it just became too much for everyone. If you all remember the very first episode of GOT had a similar scene but we hadn't become invested in Daenerys character yet. I am pretty positive that if the same scene happened to her now we would be outraged. Also a similar scene played out between Jamie and Cersei, but nobody likes Cersei so nobody cared.

I don't know if Sansa will get any kind of revenge, this story line is much different than in the books. At this point there is really no way of telling where it will go, so I will continue to watch and hope that eventually something positive happens. Ramsey dies, Cersei dies all the Botlons die, anything will be good for me really. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

[Rich]

After a few days to let that episode stew, I don't think it was the act that really bothered me about the final scene of this episode. Afterall its not like this is the first horrible thing to happen in this show. Its more of who it has happened to, I think a lot of people have become protective of fictional character Sansa. The fact that it happened to her after we have known her and watched all these other bad things happen to her it just became too much for everyone. If you all remember the very first episode of GOT had a similar scene but we hadn't become invested in Daenerys character yet. I am pretty positive that if the same scene happened to her now we would be outraged. Also a similar scene played out between Jamie and Cersei, but nobody likes Cersei so nobody cared.

I don't know if Sansa will get any kind of revenge, this story line is much different than in the books. At this point there is really no way of telling where it will go, so I will continue to watch and hope that eventually something positive happens. Ramsey dies, Cersei dies all the Botlons die, anything will be good for me really. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

Are you serious? Having Cersei die would be the WORST thing for the show. She and Tyrion are the BEST parts of Game of Thrones in their own special way, IMHO. While we know anything can happen in GOT, which is one of the things that makes it great, I would go so far as to say that they're the only two characters that are not fungible.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Are you serious? Having Cersei die would be the WORST thing for the show. She and Tyrion are the BEST parts of Game of Thrones in their own special way, IMHO. While we know anything can happen in GOT, which is one of the things that makes it great, I would go so far as to say that they're the only two characters that are not fungible.

Yea I'm not a huge fan of Cersei, and don't really care for her story lines. It seems to me like she has all this power that really shouldn't be hers. Shes the queen mother not the queen herself. It just doesn't make much sense how she is allowed such powers in the society she lives in. I get that she is good at manipulation and everything but at some point someone would have iced her by now. Its coming, its just a matter of time I think. I would argue that losing Jon, Tyrion or Danerys would be much worse for the show. I think everyone agrees that Tyrion is the best character and I don't think its close. But opinions vary.

[Mal]

I think part of the reason it was so hard to watch that last scene was because a little part in the back of my brain expects that at some point Theon's going to wake up and butcher Ramsay, and hoped that would be the moment. When Ramsay didn't wrench forward with a dagger in his back I was disappointed, which made what he was carrying out even more painful to contemplate. I guess we learned that Ramsay cannot, in fact, control himself. Agreed with Bostondevil, though, that Sansa's not just an inactive pawn anymore. She's plotting something or other, but this was not the right time to act.

There were a lot of plot turns that just made no sense to me in this episode. For one, I found the Sand Snakes to be a sort of disappointing plotline diversion. They got too much screen time only to be neutralized so easily. Was their purpose simply to be on hand to slow down Jaime and Bronn enough that they would get caught? Incidentally, I hope Olenna learns of Jaime's incarceration before Cersei does and cuts a deal one way or another to get a trade done for her grandchildren.

Also, what on Earth is Cersei's end game? Beheading of the queen? She's dead in the water without Tyrell money financing the crown. Tywin's dead, the brains of the Lannister siblings is gone, the army's mostly back at Casterly Rock with her uncle (I think), Stannis is likely on his way, she's intentionally taken action that will push Dorne into a warring position. Now she's tossing the queen, whom her subjects seem to adore, into prison while spitting on Olenna Tyrell and probably turning her own son, the king, against her. It's like she's showing off all her tactical chops in a last, idiotic flurry that has zero underpinning strategic logic.

And how/why is Littlefinger so confident Cersei won't learn that he was the one who betrothed Sansa to Ramsay? That would be a colossal blunder out of the best player the game has and seems too big of a risk. He doesn't need her blessing to go pick off the remains of the Bolton/Baratheon winner, and he's not going to be turning Sansa over to Cersei in exchange for being named Warden of the North; he's going to rally the North behind her and marry her himself.

Lastly, I'm not sure of the logic behind keeping Tyrion alive until finding the appropriate merchant for his parts simply because he'll need to be intact for said merchant to know what he's buying. They could just as easily kill him and keep him intact.

[bjornolf]

I think part of the reason it was so hard to watch that last scene was because a little part in the back of my brain expects that at some point Theon's going to wake up and butcher Ramsay, and hoped that would be the moment. When Ramsay didn't wrench forward with a dagger in his back I was disappointed, which made what he was carrying out even more painful to contemplate. I guess we learned that Ramsay cannot, in fact, control himself. Agreed with Bostondevil, though, that Sansa's not just an inactive pawn anymore. She's plotting something or other, but this was not the right time to act.

There were a lot of plot turns that just made no sense to me in this episode. For one, I found the Sand Snakes to be a sort of disappointing plotline diversion. They got too much screen time only to be neutralized so easily. Was their purpose simply to be on hand to slow down Jaime and Bronn enough that they would get caught? Incidentally, I hope Olenna learns of Jaime's incarceration before Cersei does and cuts a deal one way or another to get a trade done for her grandchildren.

Also, what on Earth is Cersei's end game? Beheading of the queen? She's dead in the water without Tyrell money financing the crown. Tywin's dead, the brains of the Lannister siblings is gone, the army's mostly back at Casterly Rock with her uncle (I think), Stannis is likely on his way, she's intentionally taken action that will push Dorne into a warring position. Now she's tossing the queen, whom her subjects seem to adore, into prison while spitting on Olenna Tyrell and probably turning her own son, the king, against her. It's like she's showing off all her tactical chops in a last, idiotic flurry that has zero underpinning strategic logic.

And how/why is Littlefinger so confident Cersei won't learn that he was the one who betrothed Sansa to Ramsay? That would be a colossal blunder out of the best player the game has and seems too big of a risk. He doesn't need her blessing to go pick off the remains of the Bolton/Baratheon winner, and he's not going to be turning Sansa over to Cersei in exchange for being named Warden of the North; he's going to rally the North behind her and marry her himself.

Lastly, I'm not sure of the logic behind keeping Tyrion alive until finding the appropriate merchant for his parts simply because he'll need to be intact for said merchant to know what he's buying. They could just as easily kill him and keep him intact.

Bronn might be dead. His arm was cut, and remember the Dornish poison their blades.

As for Tyrion, maybe it needs to be harvested from a live specimen? Plus, not fun to travel long distances by ship with a corpse.

[subzero02]

While the final scene in Sunday's episode was definitely graphic and gut wrenching, the thing that I find most interesting is how desensitized we've become to brutal acts of violence and murder when compared to rape.

[Mike Corey]

I don't think Sansa will need Theon's help; I think she will use him, and that she will orchestrate the takeover of Winterfell in time. She, and her sister, have had to go through horrible tragedy, and have had to conceal so much; and rather than it festering and resulting in their own destruction, they have bided their time and continued to endure. Sansa, given her age and situation, is soon to be in a situation where she can realize power and exact vengeance. And she will, IMO.

[davekay1971]

I agree with the above post that one of the aspects making that last scene so tough is that we've all come to know Sansa's character so well. I found myself hoping that something was going to stop Ramsay from raping her at the last moment, be it Theon or the sudden arrival of Stannis's army or Sansa pulling a hidden dagger out and pulling a Theon on Ramsay or whatever. My wife pointed out that such a scene will not happen to Arya at any point - Arya would most definitely have the dagger handy and most definitely would have cut off the Bolton family's crown jewels.

FWIW, here are my guesses with Sansa's story line:
(1) It will not be Stannis who saves her. In fact, I think Stannis will not win the battle at Winterfell, mainly because Melisandre has made such a big deal about how he lost at Blackwater Bay because she was not there. She's staked her position with him on her ability to help him win battles through the power of her god, and I'm betting that she fails him in this circumstance, putting her position with Stannis and his faith in her at risk.
(2) It will also not be Littlefinger with the knights of the Eyrie who save her. Whatever Littlefinger's end game with her (I think he hopes to marry her and unite the North and East under his control, with hopes to use that combined power to take the Iron Throne), it's not going to be so straightforward as him marching into Winterfell to destroy the hated Bolton's, save the Stark Heir, and become Hero of the North. That would be too easy for GoT world.
(3) Sansa will have to engineer her own escape or conquest. I'm thinking she will figure out how to get an uprising going in Winterfell, possibly with help that I can't quite see yet.

Here we go with my prediction of what will happen with Sansa, and this will take us into next season. This season ends with Stannis's army reaching Winterfell, and Sansa thinking her salvation is at hand. But Stannis loses the battle and has to retreat to Castle Black (thus giving a desperate Melisandre another crack at Jon - her creepy flirtation has to go somewhere), leaving Sansa to understand that she's going to have to do this on her own. Next season she makes an ally, one of her father's old faithful bannermen, and concocts a plan to sneak an army into Winterfell through those well advertised secret escape routes via the crypt. Appropo. Her rebellion works, and by the end of next season we have her in charge of Winterfell, Ramsay captured, and Sansa putting a knife in Theon's demented little hands with instruction for him to have his fun carving up Ramsay.

[Mal]

As for Tyrion, maybe it needs to be harvested from a live specimen? Plus, not fun to travel long distances by ship with a corpse.

Right, but the main slave trader's first instruction was to kill him and then dismember, so I don't think the live part matters. I guess the decision he was faced with, once Richard in a box was removed from consideration, was between transporting a dead body or a live dwarf, and he chose the latter, for sanitation reasons. I suppose they probably don't have whatever they'd need to prevent a full corpse from rotting on the boat.

[bjornolf]

Right, but the main slave trader's first instruction was to kill him and then dismember, so I don't think the live part matters. I guess the decision he was faced with, once Richard in a box was removed from consideration, was between transporting a dead body or a live dwarf, and he chose the latter, for sanitation reasons. I suppose they probably don't have whatever they'd need to prevent a full corpse from rotting on the boat.

Easier to salt a member than a whole dwarf.

[-jk]

Easier to salt a member than a whole dwarf.

But how do you prove it was from said dwarf?

-jk

[El_Diablo]

I don't think a bunch of pirates/slavers are, or should be considered to be, masters of reasoning.

[bjornolf]

But how do you prove it was from said dwarf?

-jk

Right. I was just responding to the fact that at first they just wanted to cut it off, then Mal said it would be hard to prevent a whole corpse, even a little one, from rotting.

Though, if you were just going for the line from the show, "Because it would be tiny?"

[alteran]

A couple weeks back I complained that things weren't happening fast enough. Man that seems a long time ago.

And so much to cover from the last episode (massive spoilers, natch):

Winterfell

I don't want to dwell too much on this plot because it is so disturbing and difficult. Despite what happened to Sansa's erstwhile rescuer/ally, I don't think the story has dragged Sansa this far to just be Ramsey's eternal victim. But I think a full out rescue by Brienne is too easy, and flies in the face of Sansa's tutelage in aristocratic blood feuding at the hands of Littlefinger. I expect some high treachery by Sansa in the next episode or two, perhaps being rescued by Brienne and Pod after she delivers some sort of coup-de-grace to Ramsey.

Castle Black

I'm impressed with the growth of Samwell, even if it's a bit cliched. He's pretty brave for a coward. Dire Wolves are apparently pretty handy things to have around.

I'm a little disappointed in how quickly the Knight's Watch degrades in the absence of a strong leader. Jon Snow better watch his back.

Mereen

The second most enjoyable storyline the other night. It was very satisfying to see Jorah cut through a swath of gladiators, and I'm glad to see Jorah finally reunited with Daenerys, although I expect it's just for a brief window of time until the greyscale takes over. (Although we do know, from Shireen that greyscale can be halted by knowledgeable people. I'm thinking there will be no cure for Jorah, however.)

Very, very glad to see Tyrion on the same screen with Daenerys. We knew this was coming but the wait is finally over.

Anybody else wondering where Varys is?

Dorne

Well, I'm glad we found out that we get to keep Bronn around a bit longer after seeing him struck by a poisoned blade last week, even if the story became a bit, uhm, gratuitously sexpositional. Jaime's stuck with a real dilemma with Myrcella.

King's Landing

Easily the most enjoyable, fast-moving storyline this week. That was just some amazing amazingness.

Cersei was at her absolute best (i.e. worst), strutting around the castle, pretending empathy to Tommen about Margaery, speaking out of both sides of her mouth everywhere she went. I totally loved Marge's unhinged abandonment of pretense and going full "I hate you" on Cersei-- that was a sight to behold. Cersei getting imprisoned on the heels of her triumphal humiliation of Marge was just way, way too much fun for the audience. It was better than Cats.

Lost in all the fireworks has been one simple fact-- there's a power vacuum in King's Landing now. The Queen Regent and the Queen have been imprisoned with no realistic hope of rescue, the King is a wavering, clueless teen, and Jaime's under control and in Dorne-- basically, the entire Lannister power structure has been nullified.

Who's got power in King's Landing now? Well, technically The High Sparrow, obviously.

Ollena confronted him and was completely stymied. So obviously she's been checkmated as well. Which leaves...

Littlefinger!

Anyone else think Littlefinger is behind all this? This guy's been scheming for the Iron Throne since the series opened. My best theory is that he's actually in league with the High Sparrow. He knew about all the secrets that got the Lannisters/Tyrells imprisoned. Furthermore, Littlefinger was surprisingly unworried when he was briefly under the power of the High Sparrow's fanatics. I think HS and Littlefinger are in cahoots. (I find it hard to believe that in the HS we have found the only non-Stark who either isn't for sale (or long ago sold) in all of Westeros.)

Even if I'm wrong about HS and LF working together, this is absolutely the time for Littlefinger to make his play.

[Wander]

I'm deathly afraid that Shireen is literally toast.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Just wanted to comment on LittleFinger, He has become my favorite character this season. Hes always so freaking cool, and never loses his cool. Keeps the same tone of voice and just does whatever he wants. He is the biggest bad I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. on the show right now other than Jon Snow. I wish we had more Tyrion and Littlefinger scenes together that would make for magical TV

[davekay1971]

I think Shireen will not be sacrificed...not yet. Instead I think Stannis marches on Winterfell and loses, allowing Melisandre to play the "I told you we needed to sacrifice your daughter to win" angle. Whether Stannis can be convinced by her that it's his duty to sacrifice his daughter to save all of mankind from the White Walkers will be interesting to see.

I am absolutely geeked up to see how Danaerys and Tyrion get to know each other for the rest of this season. She won't trust him at all, but we know they have to end up working together. Tyrion as her chief advisor is like having Kyrie feed the ball to LeBron.

I think the Queen of Thorns is not going to meekly accept the High Sparrow's response. She has more tricks up her sleeve.

And last, but not least, true point about the power vacuum in King's Landing. I have no idea who Tommen turns to for advise at this point. Kevan Lannister is back in Casterly Rock, the Queen and Cersei in prison, Jaime gone, and he would have no reason to trust Littlefinger, or the Queen of Thorns, or any of the other readily available power players.

[Mal]

he would have no reason to trust ... the Queen of Thorns

Not sure about that part, though I agree with the rest of your point. Olenna and Tommen want the same thing.

From a plotting and political perspective, I find it hard to believe the High Sparrow comes out on top, even for a little while. I hope the existence of the group of religious fanatics serves more as a device to allow Cersei to fall into a trap of her own making, than as a new player in the game. I mean, they were just introduced this season. Cersei authorized their militarization, yes, but I don't get the sense it's really a populist uprising or revolutionary group. We've been shown no political base of support held by them. I will be disappointed and find it cheap if they suddenly morph into a working communist revolutionary government, despite the vacuum now created, because the show hasn't laid any groundwork for it. Suggestions of unrest and egalitarian feelings, yes, but not plotting or evidence that any infrastructure exists for anything other than the current feudalism. It was happenstance that Cersei sought out the High Sparrow in the first place, brought on by Margaery's ascendance in power.

The possibilities at Winterfell are almost endless right now, which is the only reason I can stomach watching it. Ramsay very publicly flayed the old woman, so Sansa may have a lot more allies now than she did before. Not to mention that she may not need the candle in the window anymore - someone's likely to report to Brienne and she might jump in with no clear plan. Sansa grabbed some sort of corkscrew looking thing, which could be interesting. She's also laid the groundwork to push Ramsay's bastard insecurity buttons. Would/could she find a way to have Walda off'ed and suspicion cast on Ramsay? Maybe she plunges that thing into Ramsay and plants the weapon under Reek's bed. Maybe Theon sacrificed the servant as a way to indicate to Sansa that Ramsay's even more dangerous than she thinks and she'd better plot her plan out a little better (although I doubt he has the mental acuity at this point). Then there's still the possibility, though it's looking more and more unlikely, that the real Theon returns at some point.

I was a little disappointed in Sansa's usage of Reek/Theon. She should have given him a test first or something. You've got to think that someone that shattered mentally is going to need a little working on, right? One plea to remember who he really is and you're entrusting that candle to him?