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Thread: Rule Changes

  1. #1

    Rule Changes

    There's a healthy debate going on over on our board vis-a-vis rule changes people would like to see. Much of it sparked by the endless talking heads discussing how Virginia's (and some other schools, but we're the chief offender surely) slow pace of play is "ruining the game". It's really morphed from a discussion mostly on the shot clock to overall rule changes we'd like to see.

    Since DBR is probably my favorite board for intelligent conversation regarding college hoops, I wanted to get your collective thoughts.

    Personally, I'd like to see (in descending order of importance to me):

    1. 30 second shot clock - 24 is probably too short for the college game, too little depth of skill for the hundreds of teams who can't recruit top 100 talent to be able to get a decent shot in that amount of time. Game overall would probably be uglier than it is now with the lengthy clock. (It would be great for teams stocked with NBA-caliber athletes though)

    2. Go back to last year's block/charge changes. It was rough, but I expected it to take a couple of years for the refs to adapt to that change. Taking away some of the bang-bang nature of that call and giving the advantage to the offense forced teams to contest at the rim, rather than flop (which I hate - no offense meant to Duke... honestly).

    3. If a team is struggling to get the ball out of the backcourt vs a press, and they call timeout, DO NOT reset the 10 second count. Don't give teams a pass against pressure just because they have timeouts left.

    Some others have argued for a change to the held-ball system, but I think the one in place is about the best solution we can offer. Other propositions include giving teams in the double bonus the option of taking the ball out of bounds (I'd rather just shoot free throws).

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    There's a healthy debate going on over on our board vis-a-vis rule changes people would like to see. Much of it sparked by the endless talking heads discussing how Virginia's (and some other schools, but we're the chief offender surely) slow pace of play is "ruining the game". It's really morphed from a discussion mostly on the shot clock to overall rule changes we'd like to see.

    Since DBR is probably my favorite board for intelligent conversation regarding college hoops, I wanted to get your collective thoughts.

    Personally, I'd like to see (in descending order of importance to me):

    1. 30 second shot clock - 24 is probably too short for the college game, too little depth of skill for the hundreds of teams who can't recruit top 100 talent to be able to get a decent shot in that amount of time. Game overall would probably be uglier than it is now with the lengthy clock. (It would be great for teams stocked with NBA-caliber athletes though)

    2. Go back to last year's block/charge changes. It was rough, but I expected it to take a couple of years for the refs to adapt to that change. Taking away some of the bang-bang nature of that call and giving the advantage to the offense forced teams to contest at the rim, rather than flop (which I hate - no offense meant to Duke... honestly).

    3. If a team is struggling to get the ball out of the backcourt vs a press, and they call timeout, DO NOT reset the 10 second count. Don't give teams a pass against pressure just because they have timeouts left.

    Some others have argued for a change to the held-ball system, but I think the one in place is about the best solution we can offer. Other propositions include giving teams in the double bonus the option of taking the ball out of bounds (I'd rather just shoot free throws).
    I'll start off by saying that the block/charge rule from last year was a travesty, I say, a travesty, sir, which penalized teams that play good defense. The rule will just have to be interpreted as best they can by referees... harumph!! Nobody gets a free pass to my basket!!!
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  3. #3
    NIT is using 30 second shot clock this year. Would be interesting to see how that pans out.

  4. #4
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    I agree with the shot clock going to 30 seconds, not because of UVA's style of play but to just speed the game up in general.

    Jump ball at held balls

    Timeouts dont reset the clock when bringing the ball up the floor to cross half court

    Extend the three point line for the mens game

    Also if you call a timeout on your side of the court, let the team decide where to take the ball out of bounds in the final 2 minutes of the game.

    Extend the lane out some to allow more space for post players to operate. This goes hand in hand with the three point line being extended

    I know a lot of old timers will hate some of these rules, but personally I think they would add excitement to the game. Which lets face it, at times is severely lacking in College hoops. No offense to UVA but that UVA- Louisville game was a bore fest from hell. I couldn't even watch. Heck I could barely watch our game against FSU last night. WE NEED TO MAKE RULES THAT SPEED UP THE GAME AND ADD EXCITEMENT

    Also if the NBA changes the one in done rule which I doubt will happen anytime soon, the quality of players will increase and add to the excitement of the game.

  5. #5
    Shorter shot clock is IMO a must - 30 seconds max. Way too much standing around in college BB while guards pass the ball around the perimeter pointlessly.

    The OP's #3 seems like an obvious good tweak as well (and if the shot clock is going to be shortened we may also want to go from 10 seconds to 8).

    I'd like to see changes geared toward opening the floor up more, similar to what the NBA has done. I wouldn't mind limitations on zone defense, not wholesale elimination but some guidelines similar to the NBA's.

    I'd reduce each team's timeouts from five to four.

    It may just be me but I find a LOT of college basketball now completely unwatchable unless I've got a rooting interest - didn't use to feel that way at all. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky but I went through a similar phase with the NBA post-Jordan and that turned around - after they tweaked the rules.

  6. #6
    I know that talking heads see the change to a 30-second clock as a panacea, but I should point out that when the shot clock was reduced from 45 to 35 seconds in the early 1990s, scoring actually went DOWN not up. The theory is that teams had to work hard on defense for a shorter period and hence were more effective.

    I know physical defensive play is often blamed for the declining scoring. But when officials crack down on such play -- as they did early last season -- it makes it extremely difficult to play any kind of aggressive defense. The crackdown on physical play (and abundance of touch fouls) actually benefited teams that were slowing things down -- it was tougher to pressure them. Coaches responded to the rules by playing more zone defense and that slows things down too.

    What's the answer? I don't know. But in the future, I'd like to see more experimentation before new rules are implemented. Those that have been put in place in recent years have almost all slowed things down.

  7. #7
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    The biggest thing for me is not a rule change, but rather actually enforcing the rules correctly. Call fouls when a player is fouled (this is the single biggest problem with college basketball officiating right now). Get the block/charge call correct (regardless of the specifics on the rules, refs are terrible at getting this right). Don't let the scoring team grab the ball after a made basket. Call travels when a player travels. Call carries when a player carries it.

    Aside from the refs actually doing their jobs correctly (and I realize it is a very difficult job), actual rules changes I'd like to see made:

    1a. Get rid of the "5-second, closely-guarded" rule.
    1b. Get rid of the "10-second" rule.
    1c. Shorten the shot clock to 30 seconds (and I only say this as a compromise to allow 1a and 1b to get through).

    I would like to see all three of these rules implemented together. It makes little sense to me to have a 10-second rule and a 5-second closely guarded rule (especially the latter). If you have a shot clock, who cares how you choose to use those 30 (or 35) seconds?

    2. No fouling out of players, but each foul after a player's 4th (so 5th and beyond) automatically results in two shots and the ball for the other team. This would still require the coaches to decide whether or not to bench a player (or how to set your defense) with a player in foul trouble, but would not have games completely decided by a ref's quick whistles on a key player.

    3. No more "one and one." On the 8th foul (and beyond) everything is a two-shot foul.

  8. #8
    More strictly enforce the rules we've got. Especially in the tournament, college basketball begins to resemble rugby. The harder it is for players to move off the ball, the less open they can get for shots, so the longer into the shot clock they get. (Of course, this isn't an issue the NCAA can solve, because it delegates managing officials to its member conferences. And conferences that allow playing like thugs see that as an advantage. Another reason why the NCAA is dumb.)

    30 second shot clock has been a great idea for years, but I don't think it'll change the overall pace of many possessions. Its biggest effects would be encouraging strategies like the full-court press, which you never see anymore. It also would make games "in doubt" for more of the regulation clock, as stall-ball would take 5 fewer seconds off the clock.

    Do not make every call have to be either a block or a charge. If the defender clearly has position, charge. If the defender clearly didn't, block. If it's a judgment call, don't blow the whistle (or stop play and award the ball on alternating possession). The rulebook is written to disallow judgment calls to be made, except in this one circumstance.

    My never-going-to-happen item: hockey-ish continuation. I'm of the belief that a foul should never be a penalty to the offense, or be a viable strategy for the defense. If an offensive player is fouled, play may continue until the defense acquires the ball. Only award the and-one on fouls during shots. If the offense scores, they only get the 2 or 3 points and no free throws, but they get free throws if they miss (or are forced into a violation). Play stops after a make, so the fouling team loses its chances of a fast break and has to inbound.

    Also leads to a faster game, since there are fewer free throws being shot, and the clock won't be stopped so frequently at the end of a close game because of fouls.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by toooskies View Post
    More strictly enforce the rules we've got. Especially in the tournament, college basketball begins to resemble rugby. The harder it is for players to move off the ball, the less open they can get for shots, so the longer into the shot clock they get. (Of course, this isn't an issue the NCAA can solve, because it delegates managing officials to its member conferences. And conferences that allow playing like thugs see that as an advantage. Another reason why the NCAA is dumb.)

    30 second shot clock has been a great idea for years, but I don't think it'll change the overall pace of many possessions. Its biggest effects would be encouraging strategies like the full-court press, which you never see anymore. It also would make games "in doubt" for more of the regulation clock, as stall-ball would take 5 fewer seconds off the clock.

    Do not make every call have to be either a block or a charge. If the defender clearly has position, charge. If the defender clearly didn't, block. If it's a judgment call, don't blow the whistle (or stop play and award the ball on alternating possession). The rulebook is written to disallow judgment calls to be made, except in this one circumstance.

    My never-going-to-happen item: hockey-ish continuation. I'm of the belief that a foul should never be a penalty to the offense, or be a viable strategy for the defense. If an offensive player is fouled, play may continue until the defense acquires the ball. Only award the and-one on fouls during shots. If the offense scores, they only get the 2 or 3 points and no free throws, but they get free throws if they miss (or are forced into a violation). Play stops after a make, so the fouling team loses its chances of a fast break and has to inbound.

    Also leads to a faster game, since there are fewer free throws being shot, and the clock won't be stopped so frequently at the end of a close game because of fouls.
    Completely insane. I love it!

    I really detest - whether ahead or behind - the "foul to catch up" strategy.

    Interesting how many of the ideas on here are related to timing of the game.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Shorter shot clock is IMO a must - 30 seconds max. Way too much standing around in college BB while guards pass the ball around the perimeter pointlessly.

    The OP's #3 seems like an obvious good tweak as well (and if the shot clock is going to be shortened we may also want to go from 10 seconds to 8).

    I'd like to see changes geared toward opening the floor up more, similar to what the NBA has done. I wouldn't mind limitations on zone defense, not wholesale elimination but some guidelines similar to the NBA's.

    I'd reduce each team's timeouts from five to four.

    It may just be me but I find a LOT of college basketball now completely unwatchable unless I've got a rooting interest - didn't use to feel that way at all. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky but I went through a similar phase with the NBA post-Jordan and that turned around - after they tweaked the rules.
    Adding the NBA's Defensive 3-Seconds rule would be huge. If the NBA didn't have Defensive 3-Seconds, NBA defenses would just zone up and pack it in, preventing the entertaining slash-and-kick ball-movement offense that the best teams employ nowadays.

  11. #11
    I never understood the complaints over the possession arrow. If both teams possess the ball, it seems to me it should go to the offense half the time and defense half the time. The arrow seems like a reasonable way to handle that. Bilas and Vitale or whatever complain that it "hurts good defense"... but in other sports, those types of situations just automatically go to the offense, and nobody really complains about it.

    I don't mind college ball having a different set of rules than the NBA re: shot clock or whatever. The only thing that really hurts the watchability of the game to me is the sheer frequency of timeouts, especially at the end of games. I would: a) make TV timeouts every 5 minutes rather than every 4 (they can each be slightly longer to add in another commercial for revenue or whatever), b) have one less timeout for each team per game, and c) ban the ability to call multiple timeouts in a row with no game time occurring.

  12. #12
    Move the three-point line back in. Go back to the 1990s rules on timeouts -- you get three per game, and if you take one when the teevee timeout is due it counts as the teevee timeout. If you think people call timeout in Situation X too often, reducing the number of timeouts effectively increases the cost of using one.

    Keep everything else the same.

  13. #13
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    Stop the unofficial timeouts. During the 45 seconds a coach gets after somebody fouls out, don't allow the entire team (on the court) to gather with the coach. Also, shorten the 45 seconds to 30.

    Enforce the end of timeouts. Once the second whistle blows, put the ball down, or hand it to the inbounding team if the defense isn't where they should be. They'll learn quickly.

    Since they don't allow video review of the shot clock until two minutes left, do the same with other clock errors. Why stop the game for a minute to put 4 seconds back on (like what happened Saturday early.) I thought the official scorer recorded when plays happened, the refs can use that to add time back if necessary.

    Stick with the 35 second clock, 10 second back court and 5 second closely guarded violations. It's not the NBA, the game doesn't have to be as quick. The 10/5 violations allows the defense to make plays and to be rewarded for it, and forces the offense to do something.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    3. No more "one and one." On the 8th foul (and beyond) everything is a two-shot foul.
    Yuck! I'd go the opposite route and get rid of the double bonus so as to reward players/teams which actually possess the skill to stand unguarded, 15 feet from the basket and make a shot. If a player cannot make the first one, they do not deserve a second chance. While we are at it, let's go back to shooting one foul shot when a player control foul occurs on fouls one through six. Skill needs to be rewarded.
    Bob Green

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I don't mind college ball having a different set of rules than the NBA re: shot clock or whatever. The only thing that really hurts the watchability of the game to me is the sheer frequency of timeouts, especially at the end of games. I would: a) make TV timeouts every 5 minutes rather than every 4 (they can each be slightly longer to add in another commercial for revenue or whatever), b) have one less timeout for each team per game, and c) ban the ability to call multiple timeouts in a row with no game time occurring.
    I don't mind it either, but I honestly can't think of a single instance where the NBA rule differs and I think "I really wish they used the college rule," except I do think 30 seconds is probably a more appropriate shot clock at the college level. Then again I'm an advocate of everyone using the FIBA rulebook (except different shot clock lengths and possibly three point lines), so I admit I'm an oddball here.

  16. #16
    What ruins the game for me more that anything is inconsistent officiating...

    I would like to see the officiating go to full time, year round professionals. I honestly believe that most refs are not good enough to call the game as it is now played and there is way too much variability in how games are called.

    Have the FT refs spend the summer officiating summer leagues and going to clinics to sharpen their skills.

    Here is a thought... how about a coaches challenge? Allow the coach to challenge one call each game, and have the review done in a central location. That could be very interesting... could try it out in the NIT or in some of the holiday tourneys...

    Crazy idea?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Yuck! I'd go the opposite route and get rid of the double bonus so as to reward players/teams which actually possess the skill to stand unguarded, 15 feet from the basket and make a shot. If a player cannot make the first one, they do not deserve a second chance.
    The problem is that at the end of games, the trailing team can score three points at a time, while the team in the lead is generally limited to two at a time. The existing two-shot rule, guaranteeing the leading team two shots, levels this discrepancy somewhat.

    I would get rid of the two-shot rule in the first half however.

  18. #18
    Like DU82, I'm severely irked by big games and tournament games because it seems like every possession gets the equivalent of a timeout as the game is winding down. What's the use in having a limited # of timeouts when all the players go to the bench for a huddle when
    1. the trailing team commits a foul...which happens every defensive possession
    2. the refs go to the monitor to get the right time on the clock or confirm a call...which happens increasingly frequently in close, important games - games where the extra timeout time is especially beneficial
    3. substitutions
    4. foul shots
    5. floor mopping
    and so on.

    Please, just let the kids make decisions out on the floor. Or at least, communicate from the bench, not at the bench while refs wait around for the teams to rejoin the game in progress!
    So, um, rule changes, I guess would be things like: fewer timeouts given or no huddles after fouls. Or, just give the ball to the offense and let them play whether or not the defensive team has yet broken their non-timeout coach's huddle...like a no-huddle up-tempo football offense.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    The problem is that at the end of games, the trailing team can score three points at a time, while the team in the lead is generally limited to two at a time. The existing two-shot rule, guaranteeing the leading team two shots, levels this discrepancy somewhat.
    I'm not following you.
    Bob Green

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Yuck! I'd go the opposite route and get rid of the double bonus so as to reward players/teams which actually possess the skill to stand unguarded, 15 feet from the basket and make a shot. If a player cannot make the first one, they do not deserve a second chance. While we are at it, let's go back to shooting one foul shot when a player control foul occurs on fouls one through six. Skill needs to be rewarded.
    I disagree. What you suggest would have the effect of encouraging MORE fouling, especially late in games. There is essentially a minimal penalty to fouling with the one-and-one, because at worst you are limiting the opposition to two points, and there is a very real chance at 0 points. If you do that, trailing teams will start fouling early and the end game will be even more unwatchable. It unfairly penalizes the team that worked hard to get the lead and makes it easier for a trailing team to catch up without actually having to play good defense to do it.

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