Serial: The Podcast

[BrazyATX]

I'm through the first two episodes (started yesterday) so I've pretty much skipped all of your posts. Thank you for turning me on to this.

[YmoBeThere]

Granted a new trial today.

[alteran]

Granted a new trial today.

Apparently what legally got the new trial was not the translations directly from Serial, but the cell phone stuff that Undisclosed brought to light.

[grad_devil]

Apparently what legally got the new trial was not the translations directly from Serial, but the cell phone stuff that Undisclosed brought to light.

True. And not the failure to contact the alibi witness (Asia McClain).

It appears from a statement released yesterday that the AG's office will appeal the ruling. The question now is will he be allowed to post bail while in the appellate process, seeing as how the prior conviction has been vacated.

[Matches]

So Adnan has now been released. He’ll be monitored at home while the State decides whether to seek a new trial. Seems very likely he will remain free.

I still can’t get past the fact that he was calling the victim over and over right until she vanished, but never called her again even as everyone else was trying to reach her.

[JNort]

So Adnan has now been released. He’ll be monitored at home while the State decides whether to seek a new trial. Seems very likely he will remain free.

I still can’t get past the fact that he was calling the victim over and over right until she vanished, but never called her again even as everyone else was trying to reach her.

Just saw he’s been released. I’m gonna go re listen tonight as my memory has merged all these stories together by now

[bundabergdevil]

It’s always the boyfriend or husband.

[Tooold]

So Adnan has now been released. He’ll be monitored at home while the State decides whether to seek a new trial. Seems very likely he will remain free.

I still can’t get past the fact that he was calling the victim over and over right until she vanished, but never called her again even as everyone else was trying to reach her.

Well, I for one am glad he is being released. I never thought he did it, and I also believe he should not have been convicted on the flimsy evidence they had. I always thought he had very ineffective representation.

I read and watched everything I could find on the case. While my memory could be wrong, I believe that his cell phone was brand new. He called her when he got the cell phone (maybe the day before her murder?) to give her his number. I do not recall that he had any suspicious calling activity, but maybe I have forgotten. And while cell tower information was used to convict him (and it was pretty much the main circumstantial evidence), at that time cell tower location was not reliable for both incoming and outgoing calls…and that information was not given to the defense.

[rsvman]

He has already served, what, 23 years or so?

[Tooold]

He has already served, what, 23 years or so?

Yes. Many convicted of murder serve far fewer years.

This case has always bothered me, especially over the last few years when it seemed that, at the very least, the DA’s office should grant him a new trial. His conviction was overturned several years ago for very legitimate reasons (the unreliable cell tower data, which formed the backbone of the case; the ever-changing testimony of the only witness, drug dealer Jay Wilds, whose story changed every time the prosecutors found new evidence which contradicted his earlier statements; the failure of his defense attorney, whose health was affecting her performance, to question his alibi witness; and a timeline that just didn’t fit any narrative that the prosecution developed). Yet the DA’s office appealed the decision to overturn the conviction at every level until they got (by a one vote margin) a decision to uphold his conviction.

[Tooold]

So it appears that I may be the only person who is completely obsessed with this case.

The reason that Adnan has now been released has to do mostly with a MD law enacted about a year ago that allows offenders who committed their crimes as teens to be released after serving 20 years. Adnan’s attorneys applied for consideration when the law was enacted, and the DA started investigating his case to come up with a recommendation. She not only discovered the significant problems with the original case (mentioned in my previous post), but also found evidence of two alternative suspects (one who had threatened the victim), and the name of these alternative suspects had never been provided to the defense, a Brady violation. Good for her for looking into this with an open mind….bad on the previous DAs who, in spite of very clear questions (or errors) in the original prosecution, refused to even consider that there could have been a mistake.

The reports from yesterday list the potential ethical problems that can affect cases, all which seem to be present in this case: overzealous police work, honing in on one suspect and ignoring others, overly aggressive or manipulative interrogations by police, withholding evidence from the defense, racial bias, etc….

I don’t think they will retry Annan, because it is very clear that there is no real evidence to convict him. But the scary thing for me is that a lot of the issues with case only came to light because the case was featured in the Serial podcast (as well as subsequent podcasts).. how many others are wrongfully convicted for the same reasons, and have no way to get their own justice.

[Matches]

I don’t think they will retry Annan, because it is very clear that there is no real evidence to convict him. But the scary thing for me is that a lot of this only came to light because it was featured in the Serial podcast (as well as subsequent podcasts).. how many others are wrongfully convicted for the same reasons, and have no way to get their own justice.

I agree he probably won’t be re-tried, if for no other reason than it is 20+ years later and witnesses, memories etc are of limited utility.

You probably know more about the underlying case than I do. I listened to Serial but that’s the extent of my knowledge. The limitation of that was that the DA and police didn’t cooperate with Koenig, so the podcast never actually detailed what all the evidence against Adnan was. Hard to form an opinion about whether he should have been convicted without knowing what the jury saw and heard.

[Bostondevil]

I never listened to the Serial podcast, but I did watch the HBO documentary. This case made me realize that if I could reform one thing about our justice system, it would be to reward those who seek the truth over those who merely seek convictions. Prosecutors are no better than the rest of us when it comes to confirmation bias and once they have decided on the likely guilt of a suspect, they will discount and sometimes even suppress evidence that does not fit their version of the truth. I don't think most of them do it out of malice, I think they do it because of the pressures of the job and again, the fact that we reward convictions. Clearing cases is more important in our current system than keeping innocent people out of jail.

I'm sure the system reforms that I would like to see would come with a new set of problems, but I'd still like to see it.

If Adnan's family had the resources and knowledge to hire both a private attorney and a private investigator, he never would have been convicted. If you approach this case with the innocent until proven guilty adage firmly in place, confirmation bias and all (as it should be in criminal cases), there is not enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Tooold]

I never listened to the Serial podcast, but I did watch the HBO documentary. This case made me realize that if I could reform one thing about our justice system, it would be to reward those who seek the truth over those who merely seek convictions. Prosecutors are no better than the rest of us when it comes to confirmation bias and once they have decided on the likely guilt of a suspect, they will discount and sometimes even suppress evidence that does not fit their version of the truth. I don't think most of them do it out of malice, I think they do it because of the pressures of the job and again, the fact that we reward convictions. Clearing cases is more important in our current system than keeping innocent people out of jail.

I'm sure the system reforms that I would like to see would come with a new set of problems, but I'd still like to see it.

If Adnan's family had the resources and knowledge to hire both a private attorney and a private investigator, he never would have been convicted. If you approach this case with the innocent until proven guilty adage firmly in place, confirmation bias and all (as it should be in criminal cases), there is not enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

I agree 100%!. It is human nature to want to believe that the conviction you worked hard to get was legitimate. None of us likes to admit we were wrong, and it must be especially hard when we put someone in jail for life. The system being set up to reward convictions (rather than discovering the truth) only adds to the problem.

I also agree that if Adnan’s family had more resources he would not have been convicted. His attorney had a good reputation (and I think they paid for her…not a public defender). But by the time she was representing him she was spread too thin and her health was declining. Her behavior was erratic, and her failure to follow-up on important details was a real problem. Equally problematic was that Adnan was held without bail, so he was unable to assist with his defense. Holding a teenager who had no criminal record was apparently unusual, and his attorney should have fought hard against that decision.

[Tooold]

I agree he probably won’t be re-tried, if for no other reason than it is 20+ years later and witnesses, memories etc are of limited utility.
.

Not to mention the fact that the only witness couldn’t even remember his story during the investigation! Every time the police learned that it couldn’t have happened the way the witness (Jay) said, he changed his entire story…timeline, locations, etc.

The other important point is that, while there were several serious holes in the case and Brady violations at the first two trials, the most serious Brady violation was just discovered recently, and is a major reason for the decision to vacate his conviction. The prosecutor had two plausible alternate suspects who were not well investigated, and that information was never given to the defense.

[snowdenscold]

So maybe I need to go back and re-listen to Serial, as it's been 6 or 7 years and I have forgotten a lot of the details. Or perhaps too much has come out since then to where it would feel incomplete at this point.

I do remember my takeaway was that while I probably would have voted "not guilty" if on the jury, I would push my chips in on "he did it" if given a binary gambling choice with even odds. The classic "more than 51% belief, but not beyond a reasonable doubt".

One item that struck me, and perhaps this wasn't as significant as I made it out to be, was that Jay led the directly police to Hae's car in some other, random part of town. It seemed like he must have been involved. If he was really reasonably ruled out as a suspect (which I believe the podcast stated), then either he knew where the car was because he helped Adnan with the cover-up, or Adnan told him where he had moved the car after committing the crime... or there is some other strange explanation I couldn't hypothesize at the time.

Anyone have thoughts on the car ? Perhaps someone who's more up to date.

[bundabergdevil]

So maybe I need to go back and re-listen to Serial, as it's been 6 or 7 years and I have forgotten a lot of the details. Or perhaps too much has come out since then to where it would feel incomplete at this point.

I do remember my takeaway was that while I probably would have voted "not guilty" if on the jury, I would push my chips in on "he did it" if given a binary gambling choice with even odds. The classic "more than 51% belief, but not beyond a reasonable doubt".

One item that struck me, and perhaps this wasn't as significant as I made it out to be, was that Jay led the directly police to Hae's car in some other, random part of town. It seemed like he must have been involved. If he was really reasonably ruled out as a suspect (which I believe the podcast stated), then either he knew where the car was because he helped Adnan with the cover-up, or Adnan told him where he had moved the car after committing the crime... or there is some other strange explanation I couldn't hypothesize at the time.

Anyone have thoughts on the car ? Perhaps someone who's more up to date.

I came away from Serial pretty unimpressed by whatever "case" or point Sarah Koenig was trying to make but I am open to new information --- and, from what I understand, new information + withheld information is the primary driver for what just occurred.

All that said, it's always the husband or boyfriend.

[Tooold]

One item that struck me, and perhaps this wasn't as significant as I made it out to be, was that Jay led the directly police to Hae's car in some other, random part of town. It seemed like he must have been involved. If he was really reasonably ruled out as a suspect (which I believe the podcast stated), then either he knew where the car was because he helped Adnan with the cover-up, or Adnan told him where he had moved the car after committing the crime... or there is some other strange explanation I couldn't hypothesize at the time.

Undisclosed was a follow-up podcast that went into a lot more detail and convinced me that Adnan was innocent (although I was already 90% there from Serial.

My memory about the exact details of the car is also a little fuzzy. But there are a few things I do remember. There was evidence that the car had been moved to its final location sometime well after the investigation had started (and so after any time that Jay could have been involved with the car.) First, there was something about the grass under the car that made it clear that the car could not have been there long (maybe it was green? I don’t remember exactly). Second, it was found in a parking area that was visible to neighbors, and those neighbors were sure that the car has not been there long. I do not recall that Jay actually led them to the car (I could have forgotten—I will have to revisit the podcasts). But there was evidence that the police were feeding Jay information throughout the many times he was brought in for questioning. Each time they found new evidence, he would be brought back in and his story would change to fit the new evidence. And he would change his story mid-questioning when he didn’t “get it right”. Often there was audible finger tapping, which the podcasters attributed to the police tapping the table to make sure Jay remembered a location or a time that was written in some notes.

There were other issues with the car that made it hard to believe she was actually ever in the trunk for any length of time, as Jay testified. The trunk was very small and there were items in it that would have made it hard for her to fit in it. And the lividity was not consistent with the body having been in the trunk for the amount of time that would match Jay’s story. So the actual evidence did not seem to match any of Jay’s versions, nor did it match the prosecutor’s theory of the crime.

That said, it almost always is the boyfriend or husband. But one of the alternative suspects (who were never mentioned to the defense or to the various podcasters) seems to have had some relationship with the victim.

[Skydog]

It’s important to remember these “are they innocent?” podcasts and movies are incentivized to present mainly one side of the story. An early movie that started a lot of this - The Making of a Murderer - was found to have left out or minimized some important incriminating evidence. Similar with The Staircase being slanted in favor of Peterson. I did listen to the original (and excellent) Serial podcast and ended up thinking Adnad was probably guilty (60%?). But I also agree that if he had better lawyers he never would have been convicted.

[Bostondevil]

I came away from Serial pretty unimpressed by whatever "case" or point Sarah Koenig was trying to make but I am open to new information --- and, from what I understand, new information + withheld information is the primary driver for what just occurred.

All that said, it's always the husband or boyfriend.

I seem to recall in the HBO documentary that there was evidence she had started dating someone else though.