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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post

    I will say that I think Jwill was the best player on our 2001 national championship team, even though it was definitely Battier's team.
    Agreed. I'm a huge Battier fan (had several classes with him), but I didn't even think this was up for debate.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Reisen View Post
    Agreed. I'm a huge Battier fan (had several classes with him), but I didn't even think this was up for debate.
    Absolutely, totally, emphatically disagree. I think there is no question that Battier was the best player on the 2001 team.

    Oh, it was close offensively and if that was the total measure, then Williams might have had a slight edge -- his 21.6 ppg were slightly better than Battier's 19.9 ppg.

    Their shooting percentage were very similar, except from the FT line, where Battier was MUCH better (79.6 to 65.9). Williams did have a lot more more assists, but Battier had a lot more rebounds -- reflecting the different roles they played.

    So offensively, I'd be willing to give Williams a slight, slight edge in 2001.

    But any Duke fan should know that offense is not the entire game. Battier was the best defensive player in the nation in 2001 and one of the 2 or 3 best defenders in modern basketball history. Williams was not a bad defender, but he did not even make the ACC coaches' All-ACC Defensive Team. Battier was the NABC National Defensive Player of the Year,.

    He was also the consensus National Player of the Year overall, winning every major award, except the NABC Award (which went to Williams).

    Battier was clearly the leader of the 2001 team (co-captain, along with Nate). He was the key player in the key games -- the reason he was the Final Four MVP. He also won the Case Award that season as the ACC Tournament MVP. In an inexplicable vote, he shared the ACC Player of the Year Award with UNC's Joe Forte (but ahead of Williams).

    So, I agree that it's not up for debate -- Shane Battier was the best player on the 2001 team.

  3. #183
    Join Date
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    What Oly said.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post

    And I agree -- Mr. Thompson is without debate the most accomplished ACC player.
    To the extent you consider team success in the NCAA tournament as an indication of a great player's accomplishments, a very good case can be made for naming Christian Laettner the most accomplished ACC player.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    To the extent you consider team success in the NCAA tournament as an indication of a great player's accomplishments, a very good case can be made for naming Christian Laettner the most accomplished ACC player.
    My eye test only but I think Christian was the 2nd best ACC player right behind DT. GoDuke!

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    To the extent you consider team success in the NCAA tournament as an indication of a great player's accomplishments, a very good case can be made for naming Christian Laettner the most accomplished ACC player.
    Keep in mind that N.C. State went undefeated in 1972-73, and David Thompson may well have added a second national championship to his record if State hadn't been on probation and barred from the NCAA Tournament that season.
    "I swear Roy must redeem extra timeouts at McDonald's the day after the game for free hamburgers." --Posted on InsideCarolina, 2/18/2015

  7. #187
    As for Thompson vs. Laettner ...

    Laettner clearly had more NCAA opportunities -- four chances to Thompson's one.

    That said, his NCAA accomplishments make Laettner one of the two greatest tournament performers in NCAA history. He's the first (and still only) player to start on four Final Four teams. He brought home two titles. He was the Final Four MVP once. He scored more points than any player in the NCAA Tournament history. Of course, he also played more NCAA Tournament games than any other player (except his Duke classmate, Brian Davis). He hit two of the five most famous shots in tournament history.

    The only player who can make a better NCAA case might be Lew Alcindor (as he was known then), who led his team to three national titles and was the Final Four MVP all three times.

    Thompson's NCAA resume is not bad -- he was 4-0 in NCAA Tournament play. He won one NCAA title (beating a UCLA team that had won even straight titles and included five future NBA all-stars) in the semifinals. Like Laettner, he won one Final Four MVP award.

    But while NCAA performance is important, it's not the only thing that counts in a player's career.

    Laettner was a three-time All-American, but only a consensus first teamer in 1992, when he was also the consensus national player of the year. Thompson was a three-time consensus first-team All-American. As a junior in 1974, he beat out defending NPOY Bill Walton for two major NPOY awards ... as a senior, he was the unanimous player of the year. Thompson was the three-time ACC player of the year and three-time unanimous first-team All-ACC. Laettner was ACC player of the year once and finished second once.

    Laettner averaged 16.6 points and 7.8 rebounds for his career. Thompson averaged 26.8 ppg and 8.1 rebounds (as a 6-4 wing player) for his career. And that's without a 3-point shot.

    Thompson was the No. 1 pick in both the NBA and ABA drafts -- he averaged 25 ppg in his first six seasons (one in the ABA, five in the NBA) before he succumbed to drugs.

    He also beat Dr. J head-to-head in the last ABA dunk contest.

    Christian Laettner was a GREAT player and his record of play in the NCAA Tournament makes him one of the top players in ACC history. But DT was THE top player in ACC history.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post

    He also beat Dr. J head-to-head in the last ABA dunk contest.
    Nope.
    Dr. J won that dunk contest.
    That contest was when he performed the legendary taking flight from the free throw line dunk.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    As for Thompson vs. Laettner ...

    Laettner clearly had more NCAA opportunities -- four chances to Thompson's one.

    That said, his NCAA accomplishments make Laettner one of the two greatest tournament performers in NCAA history. He's the first (and still only) player to start on four Final Four teams. He brought home two titles. He was the Final Four MVP once. He scored more points than any player in the NCAA Tournament history. Of course, he also played more NCAA Tournament games than any other player (except his Duke classmate, Brian Davis). He hit two of the five most famous shots in tournament history.

    The only player who can make a better NCAA case might be Lew Alcindor (as he was known then), who led his team to three national titles and was the Final Four MVP all three times.

    Thompson's NCAA resume is not bad -- he was 4-0 in NCAA Tournament play. He won one NCAA title (beating a UCLA team that had won even straight titles and included five future NBA all-stars) in the semifinals. Like Laettner, he won one Final Four MVP award.

    But while NCAA performance is important, it's not the only thing that counts in a player's career.

    Laettner was a three-time All-American, but only a consensus first teamer in 1992, when he was also the consensus national player of the year. Thompson was a three-time consensus first-team All-American. As a junior in 1974, he beat out defending NPOY Bill Walton for two major NPOY awards ... as a senior, he was the unanimous player of the year. Thompson was the three-time ACC player of the year and three-time unanimous first-team All-ACC. Laettner was ACC player of the year once and finished second once.

    Laettner averaged 16.6 points and 7.8 rebounds for his career. Thompson averaged 26.8 ppg and 8.1 rebounds (as a 6-4 wing player) for his career. And that's without a 3-point shot.

    Thompson was the No. 1 pick in both the NBA and ABA drafts -- he averaged 25 ppg in his first six seasons (one in the ABA, five in the NBA) before he succumbed to drugs.

    He also beat Dr. J head-to-head in the last ABA dunk contest.

    Christian Laettner was a GREAT player and his record of play in the NCAA Tournament makes him one of the top players in ACC history. But DT was THE top player in ACC history.
    This deserves its own thread. I'm not sure that the UConn shot makes it into the top five of all time though. I'd put these four ahead of the UConn shot:

    Lorenzo Charles' put back (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Kris Jenkins' three (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Mario Chalmers' three (end of regulation to force OT in championship game)
    Tyus Edney coast to coast (buzzer beater to avoid first round upset, UCLA goes on to win the championship)

    Laettner's shot against Kentucky is, of course, still #1.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    This deserves its own thread. I'm not sure that the UConn shot makes it into the top five of all time though. I'd put these four ahead of the UConn shot:

    Lorenzo Charles' put back (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Kris Jenkins' three (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Mario Chalmers' three (end of regulation to force OT in championship game)
    Tyus Edney coast to coast (buzzer beater to avoid first round upset, UCLA goes on to win the championship)

    Laettner's shot against Kentucky is, of course, still #1.
    And maybe a separate thread about best NCAA Tournament clutch shots in a losing effort. Might even merit a poll: Marcus Paige in 2016 or Sean Woods in 1992?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukeford View Post
    Nope.
    Dr. J won that dunk contest.
    That contest was when he performed the legendary taking flight from the free throw line dunk.
    You are right ... I don't know what I waa thinking of ... maybe I had the dunk contest conflated in my mind with the fact that Thompson did win the All-Star MVP Award that day.

    While looking it up, I found this on youtube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZaULiWf-4

    It's 44 minutes long, but it does do a good job of summing up Thompson's impact on the game.

    It also got me thinking about how unlucky he was with timing. If he had been born one year earlier, he would have been on the 1972 Olympic team and we wouldn't have lost to the Russians (two years later, Thompson led a much weaker US team to Moscow for the World University Games and beat almost the same Russian national team by more than 20 ... in Moscow). If he had been born one year later, he would have been able to play as a freshman (he was in the last class that was not eligible for varsity ball as a freshman -- even though Fred Shaus, who coached Jerry West at West Virginia, famously said hat Thompson was better as a freshman than West was as a senior.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    This deserves its own thread. I'm not sure that the UConn shot makes it into the top five of all time though. I'd put these four ahead of the UConn shot:

    Lorenzo Charles' put back (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Kris Jenkins' three (buzzer beater to win championship game)
    Mario Chalmers' three (end of regulation to force OT in championship game)
    Tyus Edney coast to coast (buzzer beater to avoid first round upset, UCLA goes on to win the championship)

    Laettner's shot against Kentucky is, of course, still #1.
    If the standard is "most famous" shots, then we also have to talk about:

    -Keith Smart's game-winner against Syracuse in the 1987 title game;
    -Michael Jordan's game-winner against Georgetown in the 1982 title game (I discount this one somewhat because Georgetown still had 15 seconds and had not one, but two chances to win the game after the shot -- but there's no doubting that the shot is among the most famous);
    -Bryce Drew's game-winner against Mississippi in 1998;
    -Danny Ainge's coast-to-coast game-winner against Notre Dame in 1981;
    -U.S. Reed's halfcourt game-winner against Louisville in 1981 (this one has a Duke tie-in -- the player who hit the shot to give Louisville a one-point lead with five seconds left, before Reed won it at the buzzer for Arkansas, was Derek Smith, father of Nolan Smith); and
    -Tate George's buzzer-beater against Clemson in 1990 (which set up the Duke-UConn matchup in the regional final, which Duke won on Laettner's buzzer-beater).

    There may be others, but these are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.
    "I swear Roy must redeem extra timeouts at McDonald's the day after the game for free hamburgers." --Posted on InsideCarolina, 2/18/2015

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    It always amazes me how hard it often is to categorize Jordan's college career.

    Because of his NBA greatness, his college accomplishments DO get overrated by some. And others, trying to counteract that tendency, often go the other way and end up underrating Jordon the collegian.

    He did have a great college career. But he was not one of the all-time greats (as a college player).

    The best way I can categorize him is to compare him to Duke's Jason Williams.

    Both played three years in college. Both played a key role (but were not the best player) on a national championship team. Both played for a No. 1 ranked team that came up short in the Sweet 16. Both played on three very good teams -- although on the whole, Jason's teams were slightly better, even though Jordan's teammates were slightly better (Perkins had a better pro career than Battier; Worthy was much better than Carrawell). Williams played on three ACC championship teams ... Jordan on just one.

    Both had very good freshmen seasons -- Jason Williams was the top vote-getter for the ACC third team; Jordan probably would have been about the same, although the ACC didn't have a third team in 1982.

    Both were consensus first-team All-Americas as sophomores ... and both won one major national player of the year award (Jordan was named by The Sporting News; Jason was named by the NABC -- the coaches)

    Both were consensus national players of the year as juniors ...

    Which was better?

    Well, Jordan averaged 17.7 ppg for his UNC career. He added 5.0 rebounds and 1.8 assists; Jason averaged 19.3 ppg for his career. He added 3.7 rebounds and 6.0 assists.

    And at the end of their college careers, Williams was drafted one spot higher (No. 2) than Jordan (No. 3).

    I'd say that based on college performance alone, Jason Williams had a very, very slight edge on Jordan -- but their college careers were almost carbon copies of each other.

    So I repeat -- Jordan had a great college career ... but let's not oversell it. The ACC alone has had quite a few players with more (college) career accomplishments.

    And I agree -- Mr. Thompson is without debate the most accomplished ACC player.
    Great post. That is a really good comparison (the best I have ever seen argued in my view) and it is uncanny how similar their careers were. Thanks for that.

    And agree 1000% on David Thompson. I have been watching ACC Hoops religiously since 1973-74-ish, and DT is hands down the greatest ACC and College player I have ever seen play. (I was too young to witness Alcinder play). There just isn't a debate to be had on the ACC part of that statement.

    I have always argued too, that Ralph Sampson is the greatest ACC Center I have ever seen in the defined time period. ANd Laettner is by far the most accomplished ACC Player in history. His resume just can't be matched. It's a darn shame we did not finish the game in 94 or Grant would have a say in that argument too.

    We have been tremendously blessed, first as ACC Fans, and second as Duke fans.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom B. View Post
    If the standard is "most famous" shots, then we also have to talk about:

    -Keith Smart's game-winner against Syracuse in the 1987 title game;
    -Michael Jordan's game-winner against Georgetown in the 1982 title game (I discount this one somewhat because Georgetown still had 15 seconds and had not one, but two chances to win the game after the shot -- but there's no doubting that the shot is among the most famous);
    -Bryce Drew's game-winner against Mississippi in 1998;
    -Danny Ainge's coast-to-coast game-winner against Notre Dame in 1981;
    -U.S. Reed's halfcourt game-winner against Louisville in 1981 (this one has a Duke tie-in -- the player who hit the shot to give Louisville a one-point lead with five seconds left, before Reed won it at the buzzer for Arkansas, was Derek Smith, father of Nolan Smith); and
    -Tate George's buzzer-beater against Clemson in 1990 (which set up the Duke-UConn matchup in the regional final, which Duke won on Laettner's buzzer-beater).

    There may be others, but these are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.
    USA Today did a poll of the 15 most famous buzzer beaters in history last month, before the start of the 2016 tournament (which had two or three candidates):

    http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/the-...uke-bryce-drew

    Laettner comes in at No. 1 (Kentucky '92) and No. 6 (UConn '90)

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by arnie View Post
    Listened to XM College Basketball this morning. This show is always dominated by KY fans and their greatest fear (repeated by several) is Duke ruining their perfect season. It'll sad if Wisconsin or UVA end their season, but if its Duke, many lives will be ruined.
    This comment aged well a few weeks later.

  16. #196
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    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Wow, bringing it back almost 5 years later. Sometimes I get the feeling that Christian Laettner lives rent free in our heads as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    And maybe a separate thread about best NCAA Tournament clutch shots in a losing effort. Might even merit a poll: Marcus Paige in 2016 or Sean Woods in 1992?
    Gotta add Johnny Juzang 2021 to this very short list.

  17. #197
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    Seattle, WA
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    Wow, bringing it back almost 5 years later. Sometimes I get the feeling that Christian Laettner lives rent free in our heads as well.



    Gotta add Johnny Juzang 2021 to this very short list.
    And Alex Reese from the Alabama-UCLA Sweet 16 game (although not quite as memorable - I couldn't have told you it was Alex Reese without looking it up, and had initially written "the guy from Alabama").
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    Wow, bringing it back almost 5 years later. Sometimes I get the feeling that Christian Laettner lives rent free in our heads as well.



    Gotta add Johnny Juzang 2021 to this very short list.
    Suggs hit a pretty good shot as well but he had to bank it in.

    GoDuke!

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    Wow, bringing it back almost 5 years later. Sometimes I get the feeling that Christian Laettner lives rent free in our heads as well...

    He's more than welcome.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

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