Boo Big 12

[DukeWarhead]

In recent years past, the Big East would just eat itself up during the regular season, but still had consistently good performances from much of the conference. With each passing week, this years Big 12 looks worse and worse, top to bottom. KU will win the regular season once again (I suppose) but I don't think that will say much. Things looked much different just two weeks ago.

[Des Esseintes]

In recent years past, the Big East would just eat itself up during the regular season, but still had consistently good performances from much of the conference. With each passing week, this years Big 12 looks worse and worse, top to bottom. KU will win the regular season once again (I suppose) but I don't think that will say much. Things looked much different just two weeks ago.

Really? The conference has seven teams in kenpom's top 50. That seems pretty good. It's just different teams rising up than were necessarily strongest in the noncon. K-State, for instance, has put together a very nice season after a shaky start. They beat KU in Bramladge tonight, where the Hawks have more or less owned them in perpetuity.

[TexHawk]

In recent years past, the Big East would just eat itself up during the regular season, but still had consistently good performances from much of the conference. With each passing week, this years Big 12 looks worse and worse, top to bottom. KU will win the regular season once again (I suppose) but I don't think that will say much. Things looked much different just two weeks ago.

I came here tonight to relax because KU boards are going insane over an overtime loss to a hated rival that we are now 47-3 against over the last 50 games, but I have to admit, this is not the commentary I expected. In fact, I was kinda expecting the opposite. Outside of TCU, there is not a single relaxing road game on the entire Big12 slate. TTech blew that thought up in the Marcus Smart-athon on Saturday. ISU played a really bad game tonight, it happens. KU lost to a tournament team on the road in overtime.

Sorry, backing up... Can you explain the "consistently good performances from much of the BigEast conference" bit? I assume you noticed last year when Syracuse lost on the road to Temple, Nova, Pitt, and UCONN (when all of those teams were unranked), right?

[tommy]

I only saw the last 10 minutes or so of the game tonight, plus the overtime, but Kansas really was beaten pretty badly on the interior by Kansas State. K-State just seemed much more aggressive. The strange thing about it was, Joel Embiid, who had only one foul, didn't play the last approx 5 or 6 minutes, and didn't play at all in the overtime. KU went with Tariq Black, of all people, for most of the time. TexHawk, any ideas as to why Embiid didn't see the floor for the stretch run or the OT? It's not like they did any better against K-State's inside attack and drive/dish game with Black or any other big guy in there.

[DukeWarhead]

I came here tonight to relax because KU boards are going insane over an overtime loss to a hated rival that we are now 47-3 against over the last 50 games, but I have to admit, this is not the commentary I expected. In fact, I was kinda expecting the opposite. Outside of TCU, there is not a single relaxing road game on the entire Big12 slate. TTech blew that thought up in the Marcus Smart-athon on Saturday. ISU played a really bad game tonight, it happens. KU lost to a tournament team on the road in overtime.

Sorry, backing up... Can you explain the "consistently good performances from much of the BigEast conference" bit? I assume you noticed last year when Syracuse lost on the road to Temple, Nova, Pitt, and UCONN (when all of those teams were unranked), right?

Without dissecting schedules from every Big East team over the past few seasons, I think I'm on pretty safe ground by saying that, top to bottom, they were stronger than where the Big 12 stands right now. That's not going out on a limb.
A few weeks ago, there was a lot of commentary about the Big 12 being the best conference in college bball. You're not hearing that now. (No, I do not have sports radio commentary statistics on hand at the moment.) I think the combination of Baylor, Oklahoma State, and even ISU - losing five of its past nine games - have really taken the early shine off the conference.
I realize that none of this really makes a difference once NCAAT time begins.
I also realize that no self-respecting KU fan is going to admit to Big 12 mediocrity, and that's fair.

[TexHawk]

I only saw the last 10 minutes or so of the game tonight, plus the overtime, but Kansas really was beaten pretty badly on the interior by Kansas State. K-State just seemed much more aggressive. The strange thing about it was, Joel Embiid, who had only one foul, didn't play the last approx 5 or 6 minutes, and didn't play at all in the overtime. KU went with Tariq Black, of all people, for most of the time. TexHawk, any ideas as to why Embiid didn't see the floor for the stretch run or the OT? It's not like they did any better against K-State's inside attack and drive/dish game with Black or any other big guy in there.

Embiid hyperextended his knee against TCU a few weeks ago, then strained his back going up for a rebound against WVU in the final 30 seconds on Saturday. That + the normal freshman wall stuff. He doesn't have the bounce he did a month ago, he just needs to figure out how to deal with double teams and the little chippiness by opposing players. He's picked up a few technicals for jawing or throwing elbows, so it's part of the gameplan for other teams these days. It happens, he will be fine. The Morris bros, Cole Aldrich, Thomas Robinson, Darnell Jackson, Darrel Arthur all went through similar spells when they were young.

Not sure I understand the dig on Black, because he's been one of the more reliable players on the team (outside of Wiggins and Tharpe) over the last 2-3 weeks. He missed a couple of games to an ankle injury, but after his foulfest pre-New Year's, he's adjusted quite well. His defense is still terrible, but to be honest, there are no good defenders on KU these days outside of Wiggins.

[DukeWarhead]

I assume you noticed last year when Syracuse lost on the road to Temple, Nova, Pitt, and UCONN (when all of those teams were unranked), right?

Well, if being unranked is such a bad thing, then what does it mean that only KU and ISU (both losers tonight) are the only ranked Big 12 teams? KU just lost to an unranked team (and sorry, last years Temple was just as good if not better than this year's K-State; they gave KU all they could handle). So, what exactly is your point about last years' Syracuse team losing to unranked teams on the road???

[FerryFor50]

I dunno. No conference in the country possesses more teams that I'd hate to see Duke get in the tourny than the Big 12. Matchup nightmares all over.

Plus, the best part of the Big 12 is that they have teams that actually score points. And refs actually call fouls!

[TexHawk]

Without dissecting schedules from every Big East team over the past few seasons, I think I'm on pretty safe ground by saying that, top to bottom, they were stronger than where the Big 12 stands right now. That's not going out on a limb.
A few weeks ago, there was a lot of commentary about the Big 12 being the best conference in college bball. You're not hearing that now. (No, I do not have sports radio commentary statistics on hand at the moment.) I think the combination of Baylor, Oklahoma State, and even ISU - losing five of its past nine games - have really taken the early shine off the conference.
I realize that none of this really makes a difference once NCAAT time begins.
I also realize that no self-respecting KU fan is going to admit to Big 12 mediocrity, and that's fair.

I would like to test the strength of that limb there. I have no idea how we could definitively settle that, so as a guess I looked at the teamrankings power conference ratings, and over the last 5 seasons, I see the Big12 at 1st-3rd-2nd-5th-1st, while the Big East rolls in with 3rd-1st-3rd-2nd-3rd. Average that out, and it's exactly the same.

Baylor's faults can be left at the feet of Scott Drew, so I won't go there, but ISU/OSU were top 10 teams before conference play. Then they started losing. I suppose it's a "glass half-full" thing, because I see that as an indicator of the strength of the conference, you see that as them just not being good. It's probably a bit of both, tbh. But, yea, our friends from ESPN and other places have been pretty clear that they think that the Big12 is right there with the Big10 in terms of strongest CBB conference this year, and no, they have not stopped saying that.

[TexHawk]

Well, if being unranked is such a bad thing, then what does it mean that only KU and ISU (both losers tonight) are the only ranked Big 12 teams? KU just lost to an unranked team (and sorry, last years Temple was just as good if not better than this year's K-State; they gave KU all they could handle). So, what exactly is your point about last years' Syracuse team losing to unranked teams on the road???

I assumed you started this thread because the two best teams in the Big12 lost on the road to conference foes tonight. You made a statement about "the BigEast eating each other up over the last few seasons" as proof that the BigEast is/was super strong, when IMO this is exactly what you are seeing with the Big12 right now.

[DukeWarhead]

Really? The conference has seven teams in kenpom's top 50. That seems pretty good.

With one...count 'em...one in the kenpom top 20. Only three in the top 30. Compared to the ACC, Big 10, PAC 12, and even SEC, that's not pretty good.

I'm sure if we had looked at kenpom three weeks ago, it would have been much different. And that's my point - it just seems that the Big 12 has had a steeper drop off in that time than any of the other major conferences. That's all.

As I said in a previous post, such observations mean very little when the ball gets tipped in March. But right now, why not...

[TexHawk]

Well, if being unranked is such a bad thing, then what does it mean that only KU and ISU (both losers tonight) are the only ranked Big 12 teams? KU just lost to an unranked team (and sorry, last years Temple was just as good if not better than this year's K-State; they gave KU all they could handle). So, what exactly is your point about last years' Syracuse team losing to unranked teams on the road???

Last year's Temple team was a #8 seed in the NCAA tournament. Today, KSU is slotted for the exact same spot (according to Joey Brackets). I have no idea what you are trying to say there, though I admit I probably shouldn't have drank 1+ bottles of wine watching my team play an overtime game tonight, apologies.

[DukeWarhead]

Last year's Temple team was a #8 seed in the NCAA tournament. Today, KSU is slotted for the exact same spot (according to Joey Brackets). I have no idea what you are trying to say there, though I admit I probably shouldn't have drank 1+ bottles of wine watching my team play an overtime game tonight, apologies.

No apologies needed, sometimes 1+bottles are justified.
BTW, the ESPN.com cover story written by Myron Metcalf seems to go against my argument that the Big12 is slipping. He sees it as the opposite. Can't say as I buy it, but I don't get paid to write about sports, so...

[Wander]

The second-to-last team in the Big 12 standings has a better non-conference resume than like 12 of 15 ACC teams. The only thing holding them back from being the obvious best conference in the country is how god-awful TCU is: probably the worst BCS team and an example of non-football sports suffering as a result of all the conference realignment stupidity. But I'd still argue they're the best conference anyway.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The second-to-last team in the Big 12 standings has a better non-conference resume than like 12 of 15 ACC teams. The only thing holding them back from being the obvious best conference in the country is how god-awful TCU is: probably the worst BCS team and an example of non-football sports suffering as a result of all the conference realignment stupidity. But I'd still argue they're the best conference anyway.

I agree. But I'm also a firm believer that, in these packed top-to-bottom conferences, they beat the crap out of each other every night. At least we have BC, WF, and VT as cupcakes. Come tournament, these teams are prepared, but they can sometimes get beaten more easily. Take the Big East 2-3 years ago where they were by far the best conference and didn't perform that well in the tourney. It would easily happen to the Big 12 this year.

[FerryFor50]

With one...count 'em...one in the kenpom top 20. Only three in the top 30. Compared to the ACC, Big 10, PAC 12, and even SEC, that's not pretty good.

I'm sure if we had looked at kenpom three weeks ago, it would have been much different. And that's my point - it just seems that the Big 12 has had a steeper drop off in that time than any of the other major conferences. That's all.

As I said in a previous post, such observations mean very little when the ball gets tipped in March. But right now, why not...

Kenpom uses wins heavily in their formula. Hard to win consistently when you play quality teams *every* game. Big 12 is the best conference this year, by far.

[Troublemaker]

Kenpom uses wins heavily in their formula. Hard to win consistently when you play quality teams *every* game. Big 12 is the best conference this year, by far.

I don't think this is right. Only efficiency margins matter. A team could play Arizona 30 times, go 0-30 with each loss being by 1-3 points, and that 0-30 team would be ranked in the top 5 of KenPom (assuming none of these 30 games replace any of the games Arizona has already played).

[El_Diablo]

No apologies needed, sometimes 1+bottles are justified.
BTW, the ESPN.com cover story written by Myron Metcalf seems to go against my argument that the Big12 is slipping. He sees it as the opposite. Can't say as I buy it, but I don't get paid to write about sports, so...

Since conference games are zero-sum games, it does not make much sense to say that one B12 team losing to another B12 team shows the conference as a whole is somehow better or worse than it would be if the other team won. Which is why it's hard to take the Metcalf story seriously when he uses West Virginia to show that the B12 is "stacked." Um, really? West Virginia's best nonconference win was against Virginia Tech...oh, wait, no...they lost to Virginia Tech. Just let that sink in for a minute. Now look at their actual best nonconference win: #160 William & Mary.

West Virginia now has one signature win. Great--they're basically Clemson.

[Steven43]

I would like to test the strength of that limb there. I have no idea how we could definitively settle that, so as a guess I looked at the teamrankings power conference ratings, and over the last 5 seasons, I see the Big12 at 1st-3rd-2nd-5th-1st, while the Big East rolls in with 3rd-1st-3rd-2nd-3rd. Average that out, and it's exactly the same.

Baylor's faults can be left at the feet of Scott Drew, so I won't go there, but ISU/OSU were top 10 teams before conference play. Then they started losing. I suppose it's a "glass half-full" thing, because I see that as an indicator of the strength of the conference, you see that as them just not being good. It's probably a bit of both, tbh. But, yea, our friends from ESPN and other places have been pretty clear that they think that the Big12 is right there with the Big10 in terms of strongest CBB conference this year, and no, they have not stopped saying that.

You almost always have thoughtful, insightful, well-supported posts presented in a rational and calm manner, and your comments on this particular thread are no different. However, I would like to know why conference bragging rights really matters at the end of the day. And that goes for DukeWarhead as well. Who really cares? There is no way to prove any of this anyway. Just because we have polls and Kenpom and other rankings systems doesn't mean much to me.

To determine whether one conference is definitively better than another you would have to at least start by having each conference team play the other conference's teams home and away, then tabulate the results. Even then you've only just begun to truly assess which conference is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter for much other than superficial bragging rights.

[Indoor66]

You almost always have thoughtful, insightful, well-supported posts presented in a rational and calm manner, and your comments on this particular thread are no different. However, I would like to know why conference bragging rights really matters at the end of the day. And that goes for DukeWarhead as well. Who really cares? There is no way to prove any of this anyway. Just because we have polls and Kenpom and other rankings systems doesn't mean much to me.

To determine whether one conference is definitively better than another you would have to at least start by having each conference team play the other conference's teams home and away, then tabulate the results. Even then you've only just begun to truly assess which conference is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter for much other than superficial bragging rights.

Why are you attempting to bring rationality to an irrational discussion?