Game of Thrones 2014 - no book spoilers, please!

[wavedukefan70s]

Its a little off topic but....does anyone else think grey worm and Andre Dawkins resemble each other a little?or is it just me?

[davekay1971]

Okay, so clearly Littlefinger is playing the game to acquire as much power as possible.

Obviously, removing Joffrey from the throne and simultaneously making the Tyrell's indebted to him improves his position quite a bit. Assuming Margaery does what she does and secures Tommen for a hubby, that puts the Tyrells in great position to reward him, and a stable royal pair on the throne to keep those rewards in place. All well and good.

But how exactly does Sansa fit into this? For one thing, he's apparently made a connection with Lysa. Now, of course, she's nuts and not exactly easy on the eyes, but if he has the inside track for Warden of the East, I'm not sure that forming a union with Sansa improves his position. Even if he believes that Bran and Rickon are dead, marrying Sansa would only give him dubious and relatively impractical claim as Warden of the North. After all, the north is currently divided between the Greyjoys and Boltons, and neither is likely to take their armies off the field just because Littlefinger rides up with Sansa on horseback requesting they honor the Stark name.

So, at this point does Littlefinger take Sansa to the Tyrells so they can make a union with her family name? Unlike Littlefinger, the Tyrell's DO have the power to quiet the civil war in the north and re-establish the Stark house up there with Sansa and, say, the Knight of Flowers. Littlefinger could deliver Sansa to Highgarden and absolutely secure himself as the future Warden of the East. But I suspect his ambition doesn't stop there. So what does he do with Sansa, and how does she further his ambitions?

[Mal]

Okay, so clearly Littlefinger is playing the game to acquire as much power as possible...

It seems likely to me he's not got a grand plan re: Sansa in mind, but gathers up any chips he can where and when he finds them, for future use when opportunity arises. Maybe one of the Boltons or Greyjoys puts the other down and is looking to shore up the entirety of the North, at which point they could do worse than marrying a Stark and solidifying their claim. I don't know what he'd get in return, but I'm sure he'd think of something.

When you say the East, are you referring to the Vale? I just don't remember anyone calling that the East previously. My sense is that, as you noted, Littlefinger wants it all (specifically, he wants the Iron Throne), so the Vale is probably a mere stepping stone. It's kind of remote and not a proper base of power if you want to take all of Westeros. Maybe it's more valuable than that, but nothing from the show has made me think so. I wonder if he actually marries Lysa or not. Maybe he just preys on her craziness and puppets the Vale, while hoping for an opportune time to wed Sansa and assert a claim to take over the North. Then he'd have a great amount of land under control, plus an ally on the throne. Anything could happen from there - he has a son worthy of marrying a Tommen/Margery daughter, for instance.

I like your idea of the Tyrells trying to marry Loras to Sansa and have a foothold in the North themselves. I don't think Olenna Tyrell would trust Loras, though, and Winterfell's a long way from Highgarden. She seemed more interested in having Sansa come live in her neighborhood instead of the reverse. I also wonder whether Olenna isn't eventually Littlefinger's undoing, too. She's more aware of how savvy, and dangerous, he is than anyone else, and unlike most, is smart enough to see his aims in advance in a way that no one else has been able to yet. Not sure she'd actually get on board with a Sansa wedding if Littlefinger's price is what it might be. She can make that chip of his a lot less valuable.

[El_Diablo]

Littlefinger wants Sansa because (a) like nearly everyone else, he thinks that Bran and Rickon are dead, making Sansa the heir of Winterfell and thus the key to the fractured North (which has been run by the Starks for centuries) and (b) on a personal level, he has lingering affection for Catelyn Stark (as referenced in Season 1) and has always appeared especially enamored with Catelyn's beautiful young daughter. He always seems to turn the creepiness up to 11 whenever he is with her.

[bjornolf]

Littlefinger wants Sansa because (a) like nearly everyone else, he thinks that Bran and Rickon are dead, making Sansa the heir of Winterfell and thus the key to the fractured North (which has been run by the Starks for centuries) and (b) on a personal level, he has lingering affection for Catelyn Stark (as referenced in Season 1) and has always appeared especially enamored with Catelyn's beautiful young daughter. He always seems to turn the creepiness up to 11 whenever he is with her.

I think this is one of the few times he's thinking with the wrong head. This is the closest he's going to get to Catelyn, as Lysa has failed miserably in that regard.

[theAlaskanBear]

It seems likely to me he's not got a grand plan re: Sansa in mind, but gathers up any chips he can where and when he finds them, for future use when opportunity arises. Maybe one of the Boltons or Greyjoys puts the other down and is looking to shore up the entirety of the North, at which point they could do worse than marrying a Stark and solidifying their claim. I don't know what he'd get in return, but I'm sure he'd think of something.

When you say the East, are you referring to the Vale? I just don't remember anyone calling that the East previously. My sense is that, as you noted, Littlefinger wants it all (specifically, he wants the Iron Throne), so the Vale is probably a mere stepping stone. It's kind of remote and not a proper base of power if you want to take all of Westeros. Maybe it's more valuable than that, but nothing from the show has made me think so. I wonder if he actually marries Lysa or not. Maybe he just preys on her craziness and puppets the Vale, while hoping for an opportune time to wed Sansa and assert a claim to take over the North. Then he'd have a great amount of land under control, plus an ally on the throne. Anything could happen from there - he has a son worthy of marrying a Tommen/Margery daughter, for instance.

I like your idea of the Tyrells trying to marry Loras to Sansa and have a foothold in the North themselves. I don't think Olenna Tyrell would trust Loras, though, and Winterfell's a long way from Highgarden. She seemed more interested in having Sansa come live in her neighborhood instead of the reverse. I also wonder whether Olenna isn't eventually Littlefinger's undoing, too. She's more aware of how savvy, and dangerous, he is than anyone else, and unlike most, is smart enough to see his aims in advance in a way that no one else has been able to yet. Not sure she'd actually get on board with a Sansa wedding if Littlefinger's price is what it might be. She can make that chip of his a lot less valuable.

The key to the Vale is that it is safe from the Lannisters, Tyrells, or any others as long as Lysa Arryn rules with her son. All the lords of the Vale think the Lannisters murdered their lord. They mountain passes are full of hostile wild men, and the Eyrie is nigh impregnable. Lysa and her son are fairly mad, so its not out of the question Petyr could depose her. I wonder if Sansa as Catelyn's daughter might not be used to secure the Riverlands rather than North. Is Edmure Tully still alive after the Red Wedding? What about the Blackfish (brother of Hoster Tully). Of course, Lysa is a Tully as well.

[El_Diablo]

The key to the Vale is that it is safe from the Lannisters, Tyrells, or any others as long as Lysa Arryn rules with her son. All the lords of the Vale think the Lannisters murdered their lord. They mountain passes are full of hostile wild men, and the Eyrie is nigh impregnable. Lysa and her son are fairly mad, so its not out of the question Petyr could depose her. I wonder if Sansa as Catelyn's daughter might not be used to secure the Riverlands rather than North. Is Edmure Tully still alive after the Red Wedding? What about the Blackfish (brother of Hoster Tully). Of course, Lysa is a Tully as well.

Neither Edmure nor Brynden Blackfish was actually in the dining hall during the Red Wedding. As of the end of Season 3, Edmure was Walder Frey's hostage and the Blackfish was on the run. There have been no updates on either of them yet this season.

[bjornolf]

Wow, this week's episode really went off the rails in terms of following the books.

On an unrelated note, how have none of the cell carriers had a "game of phones" promotion or ad?

[El_Diablo]

I am pretty sure this part was in the books, at least:

whitewalkermascot.jpg

[ncexnyc]

Hodor, Hodor.

My man did a job on Locke, which was quite the surprise as I thought the storyline would be something along the lines of Bran falling into Roose’s hands.

Seems Littlefinger is more than just a glorified pimp extraordinaire. It was an interesting twist to find he had a part in the death on Sansa’s uncle.

I can’t wait to see Yara next week. Looks like she’s out for blood and looking to get her pound of flesh for what was done to her little brother.

[Blue in the Face]

I realize that the chaos of the night's watch's attack was the perfect opportunity for Bran & Co. to escape, but if he could change into Hodor and break his chains, that seems like a card that might've been worth playing earlier, before, say, Meera was almost brutalized. (And it's not like Bran couldn't have guessed something like that was probably on the agenda). Seemed like they weren't being guarded and would've had an earlier opportunity to get away while everyone was drunk and helping themselves to Craster's daughters.

[alteran]

I realize that the chaos of the night's watch's attack was the perfect opportunity for Bran & Co. to escape, but if he could change into Hodor and break his chains, that seems like a card that might've been worth playing earlier, before, say, Meera was almost brutalized.

Interesting. I see what you're saying but I rolled with that one. The one that got me was the "he'll make us go to the Black Castle so I won't say hi to him" excuse for NOT getting Bran and John together. I just don't buy it.

Was glad to see the Crastor's Keep storyline end and the traitors get their comeuppance. And wow, the actor playing Bran sure has had a growth spurt.

I didn't see Littlefinger being the trigger of the war of 5 kings coming. Yikes. Too bad he can't put that on a resume.

The Eyrie storyline is crazy. Lysa is way, way, way off the rails. That is one seriously dysfunctional family.

If I were Sansa, I wouldn't worry much about having to marry Robin. Judging from a) Lysa blabbing to her quasi-addled son about who Sansa really is and b) Littlefinger's highly effective method of keeping secrets, I'm going to assume that c) Littlefinger's marriage will be brief, and will end poorly for Lysa and Robin. In fact, my money is that for sheer irony value, Robin's going to get his chance to "fly."

Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure that the "moon door" violates a number of OSHA guidelines. Somebody install some rails or something.

In contrast, the sanity index in King's Landing has gone up substantially. I was surprised at both the fact of House Lannister's lack of wealth, AND Tywin's admission of same. Tywin's got some serious problems to deal with, plus he's aware that the dragon queen figures in his future. Good luck with that.

Cersei has also dialed down the crazy. I was expecting Joff's death to trigger paranoia and drinking, instead it's inspiring introspection and maybe even kindness. Admittedly, she hasn't changed her mind about Tyrion, but she's certainly a more balanced, sane figure than she has been lately.

[El_Diablo]

Cersei has also dialed down the crazy. I was expecting Joff's death to trigger paranoia and drinking, instead it's inspiring introspection and maybe even kindness. Admittedly, she hasn't changed her mind about Tyrion, but she's certainly a more balanced, sane figure than she has been lately.

Notice that Cersei's interactions were with Judge #1 (Tywin), Judge #2 (Oberyn) and the daughter of Judge #3 (Margaery). Always be scheming.

[johnb]

Not having read the books, posting feels a little like anticipating a basketball game that has already been played.

Nevertheless, why is Cersei such a troll? Does she really think her brother did it? I suppose so, since otherwise that would mean that she is knowingly not looking for the killer. Even more importantly, why is dear old dad making it so easy to sentence his son to death or to the wall? I suppose it's all about maneuvering the other two kids into primo positions, but it does seem like he could have accomplished this without such a visible diss on his own name.

Oh, well. On to next week...

[Reisen]

I've read the books, and yes, I think she really thinks Tyrion did it. Remember, she has hated the guy for years, for a variety of reasons. So it's not hard to believe that she would instantly assume he's the guilty party here.

[Mal]

Even more importantly, why is dear old dad making it so easy to sentence his son to death or to the wall? I suppose it's all about maneuvering the other two kids into primo positions, but it does seem like he could have accomplished this without such a visible diss on his own name.

I think you mostly answered your own question, but to my mind Tywin made more of a tactical than a strategic error in the trial. I don't think he cares about the Lannister name being sullied by having Tyrion dragged through the mud. He's always despised Tyrion and the world in which they live will think nothing less of Tywin Lannister that he persecutes a dwarf. Where he goofed was in gilding the lily at the trial (or allowing Cersei to do so) by letting Shae testify and just destroy Tyrion. It looked for all the world that Tywin was going to get everything he wanted out of this event - Jaime to go home and have some legitimate heirs, and Tyrion out of his hair forever at the Wall, where Dad probably assumes he'll be killed in short order, anyway. And Tyrion, moved by the only real familial love he's ever had or received, (I think) would have gone along with it [it's possible he heard Jaime's instructions and thought "Ummm, yeah, I was here the last time Cersei made that offer, to Ned Stark. No thanks" and determined right then and there to ask for trial by combat]. But then they paraded in Shae and he lost it.

Now, Tywin's in a terrible position, Tyrion having outflanked him after intuiting what the deal was with Jaime. So he scotched that deal the only way he could. Jaime's not going to quietly go back to Casterly Rock and get married if Tywin lets Tyrion die, so Tywin may feel he has to rig the combat trial one way or another for Tyrion's champion to win. Which would make it even more interesting if Tyrion names himself, of course. Of course, it would be checkmate if Tyrion could get Jaime to stand for him - there's no way Tywin lets them both die, which is exactly what would happen unless Jaime's training with Bronn has magically become a lot more fruitful.

Will be interesting to see what happens there. I was kind of excited about the possibility of Tyrion, after unloading on his family, going to the Wall, joining up with Jon Snow (I seem to recall the two of them coming to a sort of mutual respect for each other back in the first season) and/or Bran Stark, and becoming a force to be reckoned with. Now I'm excited to see who's named as the combatants, on both sides. Jaime? Bronn? Oberyn Martell? Tywin did offer him a shot at the Mountain, after all.

[bjornolf]

I thought the biggest bombshell of the episode was Littlefinger's revelation.

[DukeCrow]

Now I'm excited to see who's named as the combatants, on both sides. Jaime? Bronn? Oberyn Martell? Tywin did offer him a shot at the Mountain, after all.

Seems like it'd be a no brainer for Tywin to pick the Mountain. And it would follow from that that Tyrion shouldn't have much trouble convincing Oberyn to be his champion. Should be a good fight!

FYI, the Season 4 trailer seems to have a scene or two from the fight. Sucks that the show is taking Memorial Day weekend off and will make us wait an extra week for it.

(BTW, I haven't read the books.)

[jimsumner]

I've read the books, and yes, I think she really thinks Tyrion did it. Remember, she has hated the guy for years, for a variety of reasons. So it's not hard to believe that she would instantly assume he's the guilty party here.

Please, no book spoilers. Please.

[Reisen]

Please, no book spoilers. Please.

I don't think there was a spoiler there, was there?