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  1. #1861
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Do you see the dangers of CBDCís? Would you use them?
    Probably not, because, I know more about the Federal Government than 99% of Americans.

    If the Federal Government took your digital currency (or other assets), and you sued them, then DOJ would claim Sovereign Immunity and a Federal Judge would rule in favor of the Federal Government. And, then, the Federal Government would really attack you out of pure hatred.

  2. #1862
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Iíve been aware of that case. Governments often overreach everywhere.

    You said earlier you were interested in learning more about finance. Do you see and understand the differences between BTC and a CBDC?
    Yep, it was right up the road from you. I once thought our government was better than most. Foolish me.

    I definitely see the difference as illustrated above.

  3. #1863
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by fidel View Post
    Sigh. Where to start.

    It’s ok, when you begin to understand Bitcoin better it won’t be so frustrating for you. It takes time..

    First off, these are the same banks you excitedly post on here when they do something with crypto.

    Yes. Being a practical person, I realize the traditional banking system will not change overnight and that they will adopt Bitcoin, along with other “crypto “. Traditional banking adoption of BTC will speed up the integration of BTC in the financial system, so there is one positive point for banks.

    Second, the fines they accrue aren’t because they are using fiat currency. They accrue fines from faulty business practices, regardless of currency. Expect the same using BTC. Predatory loans. High fees. Difference? Zero chance of getting your money back.

    Correct. Their fines have nothing to do with fiat currency, and everything to do with their business practices. What you a failing to see is that with Bitcoin, those who own BTC can chose NOT to use their financial services, or their money(CBDC), if they don’t earn our trust. Simple as that. Bitcoin gives us the option to opt out of using their money and services. We’ve never had that option before on a digital scale, (it’s possible, but not practical, with gold).

    Can you trust your money won’t be debased by bankers and governments printing more? Can you trust their CBDC won’t be used as a surveillance tool? Can you trust you’ll be able to spend your money as you wish if someone can program and control your money?

    You can trust Bitcoin will remain the same, a hard, incorruptible monetary digital asset to store your value in, and one that you can personally control without banking institutions or anyone else involved.

    With our new found ability with Bitcoin to use a money without central bank control, they will have to do better, or lose your business.
    Banks will be buying and loaning Bitcoin. Providing all sorts of financial services, with Bitcoin along with dollars. That’s what banks do. What will change is the quality of the money we use. Bitcoin will remain sound, no intervention from anyone to weaken it, and as value is added through adoption and use, will only become more valuable
    .

    So you are suggesting welfare recipients get BTC? You realize the spending protections are for the recipient right? You can’t steal a food stamp to buy drugs or alcohol. At-risk people are not MORE at risk because of the support we supply.

    If the US government wants to buy BTC and issue some amount as welfare benefits, no problem. Recipients would be happy to have a money they could actually save and not have it lose value over time.


    You say this with complete authority. Here is what the Federal Reserve says:


    Pretty suspicious, eh?

    “Watch what they do, not what they say.”

    Think I’m paranoid or a conspiracy theorist?
    Yes, you are.

    All bad actions are conspiracies in your world. ‘Totally corrupt monetary system’. ‘A financial system that can’t be trusted’.

    BTC has its place. It’s an interesting tool for potential hedging against unsound monetary policies. But that doesn’t make all monetary policies unsound.

    It’s not a conspiracy when it’s true. But it is denial when it’s called out and not acknowledged.

    All Fiat currencies fail over time. Every single one of them. The dollar will be no different, (unless someday we get smart and dollars become backed by Bitcoin).

    You do realize that if you use BTC for everything, all your money flows are completely traceable, correct? You can’t be anonymous yet get paid (or make payments)?[/QUOTE]

    My Bitcoin transactions are traceable, and I have no problem with that.
    What’s important is that no-one can stop me from exchanging or spending my BTC with another willing person or business that will accept BTC as value. And also that my BTC is out of the reach of manipulation by governments, institutions or individuals.

  4. #1864
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Probably not, because, I know more about the Federal Government than 99% of Americans.

    If the Federal Government took your digital currency (or other assets), and you sued them, then DOJ would claim Sovereign Immunity and a Federal Judge would rule in favor of the Federal Government. And, then, the Federal Government would really attack you out of pure hatred.
    Itís going to be almost impossible for the government to take my Bitcoin unless I get careless.

    And at some point we have to trust our justice system and lean on our constitutional rights.

  5. #1865
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Itís going to be almost impossible for the government to take my Bitcoin unless I get careless.
    And it would be very possible for the government to take your CBDC.

    Understand my point/responses?

  6. #1866
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Will moving to a different monetary paradigm (e.g., Bitcoin) really address all your concerns?

    Having a money that has a finite supply and canít be changed will go a long way towards solving many of the worlds financial issues. But youíre right, it wonít fix everything. Layer two applications will be built on top of BTC, and those financial services will still be at risk of corruption.

    Seems like fundamental issues such as structure and role of government, rule of law and the legal system, social contracts and expected societal and cultural norms and behavior, etc. will all come in to play regardless of whether we use cash dollars, BTC, a CBDC or anything else.

    Yes, we will still have all those issues, but imagine if the one thing you didnít have to be concerned with was that your money would weaken? Or be used as a tool against you?
    Wouldnít these societal issues be much easier to deal with if we had a solid, unimpeachable digital asset to store our value in that we could all trust?



    For example, there's still a wide gulf between "more merchants accepting BTC every day" and full on anarcho-capitalism, right?
    Yes, we have a long way to go. Itís early.

  7. #1867
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    And it would be very possible for the government to take your CBDC.

    Understand my point/responses?
    Yes.

    And if not take it, control how you spend it. Thatís why I would never use a CBDC.

  8. #1868
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    In todays newsÖ.

    Binanceís CEO Confirms
    Participating as Equity Investor in Muskís Twitter Takeover

    ďWe're excited to be able to help Elon realize a new vision for Twitter,Ē Binance founder Changpeng Zhao said in an emailed statement. ďWe aim to play a role in bringing social media and Web3 together in order to broaden the use and adoption of crypto and blockchain technology."

  9. #1869
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    This thread is being at least temporarily closed. The moderators are discussing if or when it may be reopened.

    The discussion has gotten heated and personal at times. And I have handed out a couple unofficial warnings in the past few days.


    Reading through the many posts, it is abundantly clear that the thread contains a public policy debate. A discussion about the use and value of crypto is something politicians and central bankers and the such have. It is not within the bounds of what is allowed on the DBR. Frankly, the sniping and disagreement in the thread are the kind of thing I would expect in a public policy debate.

    Additionally, there are some people who feel some cryptocurrencies are a Ponzi scheme or something like that. Certainly there are people who have lost vast sums of money on bad crypto-related investments (and others who have earned fabulous windfalls). The DBR chooses to err on the side of not allowing advocacy of something that may be dangerous.

    Again, it is possible we will allow this thread to reopen at some point, but for the moment we feel it is not in the spirit of the community we have built to allow it to continue.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  10. #1870
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    With a certain someone no longer around...

    And with the current conversation about SBF seeming calm and rational...

    The decision has been made (by me) to reopen this thread.

    Please play nicely.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  11. #1871
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    Thank you for opening this back up. Since it was shut down I have poured countless more hours into learning more about this space, and wanted to share an additional resource.

    Through a youtube rabbit hole, I eventually found a podcast called Rational Reminder by two guys out of Canada who typically cover finance / personal finance and who have a solid 250+ episodes under them with some big names as guests.

    Anyway, they ran a 17-part "Understanding Crypto" sub-series earlier this year, and although I'm only through part 14, they have touched on (either lightly or extensively) pretty much every topic and discussion point on this thread. They bring on a different guest for each episode with a wide ranging diversity of areas of expertise and attitudes towards crypto. There's been technology-focused, economics-focused, legal-focused, etc. and a mix of both pro and anti voices.

    Many of these guests have been cited throughout the thread as well.

    Each episode is between 45 and 90 minutes, so it's not exactly a fast listen. But still, worth it so far.

    Understanding Crypto 17: Ari Juels: The Technical Case for Blockchain
    Understanding Crypto 16: Chris DeRose: Uncensored Crypto Perspectives
    Understanding Crypto 15: Prof. Vili Lehdonvirta: Cryptocracy: The Obfuscation of Power
    Understanding Crypto 14: Prof. John Cochrane: Money, (Fiscal) Inflation, and Political Freedom
    Understanding Crypto 13: Prof. William Magnuson: Blockchain and Democracy
    Understanding Crypto 12: David Gerard: Crypto Realities
    Understanding Crypto 11: Quinn DuPont: Understanding Crypto: An Interdisciplinary Approach
    Understanding Crypto 10: Prof. Hilary Allen: DeFi: Shadow Banking 2.0?
    Understanding Crypto 9: Prof. Campbell R. Harvey: DeFi and the Future of Finance (Rebroadcast)
    Understanding Crypto 8: Tim O'Reilly: How does Web3 Compare to Web 2.0?
    Understanding Crypto 7: Nicholas Weaver: A Computer Scientist's Perspective on Cryptocurrencies and Blockchain
    Understanding Crypto 6: Bruce Schneier: Security, Trust, and Blockchain
    Understanding Crypto 5: Stephen Diehl: The Case Against Crypto
    Understanding Crypto 4: Prof. Tobin Hanspal: The Characteristics of Crypto Investors
    Understanding Crypto 3: Prof. Eswar Prasad: Bitcoin, Banking, and the Future of Money
    Understanding Crypto 2: Prof. Igor Makarov: Economics of the Crypto Ecosystem
    Understanding Crypto 1: Daniel Mescheder: What Problem Do Blockchains Actually Solve?

    https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast-directory
    A text without a context is a pretext.

  12. #1872
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Thank you for opening this back up. Since it was shut down I have poured countless more hours into learning more about this space, and wanted to share an additional resource.
    Thanks, you have spent considerable time and energy on this matter! Would you please provide us a quick summary, of the most important insights, from each episode? It would be great to read your perspective, and quick synopsis, of each episode.

  13. #1873
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    About halfway through I thought to myself "Hey I should write down some brief notes and takeaways for each of these at the end"... but I was already through seven at that point so I just gave up and did nothing going forward - sorry!

    However, if you go to the link above, and if you click on each episode, they will give you a full paragraph explanation of what's being talked about and with whom.
    A text without a context is a pretext.

  14. #1874
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Awesome the thread is back open.

    Thanks for the links Snowdenscold. I look forward to digesting.

  15. #1875
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    About halfway through I thought to myself "Hey I should write down some brief notes and takeaways for each of these at the end"... but I was already through seven at that point so I just gave up and did nothing going forward - sorry!

    However, if you go to the link above, and if you click on each episode, they will give you a full paragraph explanation of what's being talked about and with whom.
    Thanks, it was definitely worth asking.

    To this day, Iím still highlighting and taking notes when reading. Old habits which have repeatedly paid dividends.

    So, what are your macro conclusions from all the sessions combined?

  16. #1876
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Thanks, it was definitely worth asking.

    To this day, I’m still highlighting and taking notes when reading. Old habits which have repeatedly paid dividends.

    So, what are your macro conclusions from all the sessions combined?
    Well, as a disclaimer, I still have three episodes left, and at least one of them sounds pretty pro-crypto.

    But overall, I found myself agreeing vehemently with the skeptics and arguing out loud with some of the statements made by the "pro" side, but I'm sure Wheat and others might be doing the same thing only in reverse.

    It was nice to hear some things fleshed out a bit more than you would get in a Tweet thread or short blog, with some occasional follow-up by the hosts to clarify or ask about what their opponents might argue. And to that last point, I wish there was more of that. There is some of it, but I desired a lot more - e.g., "We just had Guest X on a couple episodes before you and they {made claim Y | argued against what you just said}. How would you respond to that?" sort of thing.


    Some of my specific takeaways I recall though:
    - don't expect technology to solve political/social/cultural problems
    - trust has to lie somewhere, it's just a question of where you're moving it
    - while there may be some niche "good" uses here and there, they are dwarfed by the sheer amount of bad that comes from this; the negative externalities are enormous
    - the technology, while innovative, is not really practical or useful for anything beyond cryptocurrencies, and all the talk about the "underlying technology has promise" is usually just a smokescreen
    - decentralization, like trust, is loosely/broadly defined and depends on who is speaking, and is really just a matter of shifting around where those centralized elements actually are
    - reporting on crypto suffers from a lot of the same problems that tech reporting in general does *


    * See Words Matter: How Tech Media Helped Write Gig Companies into Existence


    If I just had to recommend a couple (because I thought #1 was very technology heavy, which was fine for me, but maybe not everyone, and that #2 and #3 were a little slow because I'm not a finance guy), I would go with
    - #5 Stephen Diehl
    - #6 Bruce Schneier
    - #7 Nicholas Weaver
    - #10 Hilary Allen
    A text without a context is a pretext.

  17. #1877
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Well, as a disclaimer, I still have three episodes left, and at least one of them sounds pretty pro-crypto.

    But overall, I found myself agreeing vehemently with the skeptics and arguing out loud with some of the statements made by the "pro" side, but I'm sure Wheat and others might be doing the same thing only in reverse.

    It was nice to hear some things fleshed out a bit more than you would get in a Tweet thread or short blog, with some occasional follow-up by the hosts to clarify or ask about what their opponents might argue. And to that last point, I wish there was more of that. There is some of it, but I desired a lot more - e.g., "We just had Guest X on a couple episodes before you and they {made claim Y | argued against what you just said}. How would you respond to that?" sort of thing.


    Some of my specific takeaways I recall though:
    - don't expect technology to solve political/social/cultural problems
    - trust has to lie somewhere, it's just a question of where you're moving it
    - while there may be some niche "good" uses here and there, they are dwarfed by the sheer amount of bad that comes from this; the negative externalities are enormous
    - the technology, while innovative, is not really practical or useful for anything beyond cryptocurrencies, and all the talk about the "underlying technology has promise" is usually just a smokescreen
    - decentralization, like trust, is loosely/broadly defined and depends on who is speaking, and is really just a matter of shifting around where those centralized elements actually are
    - reporting on crypto suffers from a lot of the same problems that tech reporting in general does *


    * See Words Matter: How Tech Media Helped Write Gig Companies into Existence


    If I just had to recommend a couple (because I thought #1 was very technology heavy, which was fine for me, but maybe not everyone, and that #2 and #3 were a little slow because I'm not a finance guy), I would go with
    - #5 Stephen Diehl
    - #6 Bruce Schneier
    - #7 Nicholas Weaver
    - #10 Hilary Allen
    Thank you, very much, for all of the time and energy you invested in this post! This is exactly what I wanted to know. Itís most appreciated!

  18. #1878
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Schneier

    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    Well, as a disclaimer, I still have three episodes left, and at least one of them sounds pretty pro-crypto.

    But overall, I found myself agreeing vehemently with the skeptics and arguing out loud with some of the statements made by the "pro" side, but I'm sure Wheat and others might be doing the same thing only in reverse.

    It was nice to hear some things fleshed out a bit more than you would get in a Tweet thread or short blog, with some occasional follow-up by the hosts to clarify or ask about what their opponents might argue. And to that last point, I wish there was more of that. There is some of it, but I desired a lot more - e.g., "We just had Guest X on a couple episodes before you and they {made claim Y | argued against what you just said}. How would you respond to that?" sort of thing.


    Some of my specific takeaways I recall though:
    - don't expect technology to solve political/social/cultural problems
    - trust has to lie somewhere, it's just a question of where you're moving it
    - while there may be some niche "good" uses here and there, they are dwarfed by the sheer amount of bad that comes from this; the negative externalities are enormous
    - the technology, while innovative, is not really practical or useful for anything beyond cryptocurrencies, and all the talk about the "underlying technology has promise" is usually just a smokescreen
    - decentralization, like trust, is loosely/broadly defined and depends on who is speaking, and is really just a matter of shifting around where those centralized elements actually are
    - reporting on crypto suffers from a lot of the same problems that tech reporting in general does *


    * See Words Matter: How Tech Media Helped Write Gig Companies into Existence


    If I just had to recommend a couple (because I thought #1 was very technology heavy, which was fine for me, but maybe not everyone, and that #2 and #3 were a little slow because I'm not a finance guy), I would go with
    - #5 Stephen Diehl
    - #6 Bruce Schneier
    - #7 Nicholas Weaver
    - #10 Hilary Allen
    Schneier is the only one I recognized. Heís great.

    Without listening to these podcasts, as a former securities lawyer, I agree with your views.

  19. #1879
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    This could go in the other thread, but I'm sticking it here.

    320067565_563084705829493_4814758761901549973_n.jpg
    Past is gone, thou canst not that recall; Future is not, may not be at all;
    Present is, [so] improve the flying hour; Present only is within thy power. - Friar Park Clock Tower [author unknown]

  20. #1880
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    At this point, blockchain has to rate as a pretty big technological fizzle...a lot of huge companies fell all over themselves to tout it, now not so much.

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