Crypto Conversation

[snowdenscold]

My Bitcoin investment is down, for now, yet the security of the Bitcoin Network is at an all time high, and getting stronger.

Of course it does. The hash rate continues to grow, making attacks much more difficult over time and increasing the security of the BTC network.

The hashrate, while indeed fundamental to blockchain operations, is just one smaller component in the much larger security picture of the entire crypto ecosystem. And it's nowhere near the weakest link.

It's like telling me how strong AES is as a primitive while you run it in ECB mode and derive it while using 512-bit Diffie-Hellman.

And yet while these other huge problem areas exist (and some inherent to the whole endeavor itself), enormous amounts of energy are being thrown at a premise (proof-of-work*) that was academically interesting at small scale, but a complete disaster at global scale. Not to mention the enormous e-waste piling up from all the ASIC / GPUs being quickly churned through. (which has had the side effect of making prices of graphics cards for non-crypto-miners crazy high in recent years)


* yes I know "proof of stake" is the altnerative, but 1) for years now it's always been 6+ months away from being implemented 2) there are still major concerns with how it can work at scale and in the long run 3) Bitcoin isn't planning a move to it anyway

[LasVegas]

Man, they will just not let this thing drop below $20k.

[PackMan97]

Man, they will just not let this thing drop below $20k.

Another question...

Are there any estimates of how much "orphaned" bitcoin is out there? Basically those where the owners have forgotten about them, lost the passwords, etc. Every now and then I read a story about someone remember they have some bitcoin but then not being able to access it due to a forgotten password.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The hashrate, while indeed fundamental to blockchain operations, is just one smaller component in the much larger security picture of the entire crypto ecosystem. And it's nowhere near the weakest link.

It's like telling me how strong AES is as a primitive while you run it in ECB mode and derive it while using 512-bit Diffie-Hellman.

And yet while these other huge problem areas exist (and some inherent to the whole endeavor itself), enormous amounts of energy are being thrown at a premise (proof-of-work*) that was academically interesting at small scale, but a complete disaster at global scale. Not to mention the enormous e-waste piling up from all the ASIC / GPUs being quickly churned through. (which has had the side effect of making prices of graphics cards for non-crypto-miners crazy high in recent years)


* yes I know "proof of stake" is the altnerative, but 1) for years now it's always been 6+ months away from being implemented 2) there are still major concerns with how it can work at scale and in the long run 3) Bitcoin isn't planning a move to it anyway

My view is different.
Proof of stake is just more of the same. Networks would be ultimately controlled by those with the money, who put up the stake, like our current system. When push comes to shove, you can bet those with the stake will come out ahead of those without a stake.

I see Bitcoin’s energy use through proof of work as a huge benefit to the world and a worthwhile endeavor by providing a money/store of value that lives independently from any state or institutions.
Everyone has the same “stake” with POW and BTC, rich or poor.
That energy use is absolutely necessary to maintain the decentralization and security of the network and whatever energy it uses, it’s a bargain.

And the truth is, if the entire Bitcoin network was to disappear tomorrow, there would be a tiny to no measurable impact on the worlds energy use. And the majority of the BTC network is moving quickly towards renewable, clean energy as well.

There are plenty of more wasteful industries around the world to focus on that could make a real difference…and I’d start here way before fighting a hard money for the people.

As for e waste, OK, let’s look for ways to solve that problem. I’m sure BTC’s e waste is a mere fraction of worldwide e waste. I’d bet old gaming systems worldwide probably dwarf BTC’s e waste, for example. Ready to ban gaming?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Another question...

Are there any estimates of how much "orphaned" bitcoin is out there? Basically those where the owners have forgotten about them, lost the passwords, etc. Every now and then I read a story about someone remember they have some bitcoin but then not being able to access it due to a forgotten password.

Estimates are that up to 3 million of the current, (approximately), 19 million BTC on the market have been “lost” forever, which makes the asset that much more scarce.

[Kdogg]

Another question...

Are there any estimates of how much "orphaned" bitcoin is out there? Basically those where the owners have forgotten about them, lost the passwords, etc. Every now and then I read a story about someone remember they have some bitcoin but then not being able to access it due to a forgotten password.

The number batted around is 20%. I’m not sure if that would go up or down with its increased popularity. There have been a few successfully recovery outfits that have popped up for lost passwords.

[Kdogg]

As for e waste, OK, let’s look for ways to solve that problem. I’m sure BTC’s e waste is a mere fraction of worldwide e waste. I’d bet old gaming systems worldwide probably dwarf BTC’s e waste, for example. Ready to ban gaming?

Old gaming systems can be used for decades. A deprecated ASIC has absolutely no reuse other than a space heater. It’s a unitasker.

[Jeffrey]

It appears Joe Biden is responsible for the crypto meltdown…..

In a recent Twitter rant, he placed the blame on President Joe Biden, writing: "Biden accomplishments. Number one, highest gas prices. Number two, worst inflation. Number three, plummeting crypto prices. Number four, highest rent prices ever. Number five, created new incomprehensible language.
"If you’re reading this and voted for Biden and you still don’t regret it then you are the American problem."

https://apple.news/AYUv-zeWeR-uIiWUfex1oTA

[bundabergdevil]

As for e waste, OK, let’s look for ways to solve that problem. I’m sure BTC’s e waste is a mere fraction of worldwide e waste. I’d bet old gaming systems worldwide probably dwarf BTC’s e waste, for example. Ready to ban gaming?

Old gaming systems can be used for decades. A deprecated ASIC has absolutely no reuse other than a space heater. It’s a unitasker.

Got me wondering.

I'm seeing about 55 million metric tons of global e-waste annually, of which about 15% is properly disposed of or recycled. 10% of e-waste is tossed directly into the trash in high income countries. I'm also seeing an estimate of about 30,000 metric tons of ASICs disposed...so, it represents ~.05%.

I wouldn't get caught up in the nitpicky of ASICs vs. old gaming systems...plenty of e-waste to go around. It's a problem.

[richardjackson199]

It appears Joe Biden is responsible for the crypto meltdown…..

In a recent Twitter rant, he placed the blame on President Joe Biden, writing: "Biden accomplishments. Number one, highest gas prices. Number two, worst inflation. Number three, plummeting crypto prices. Number four, highest rent prices ever. Number five, created new incomprehensible language.
"If you’re reading this and voted for Biden and you still don’t regret it then you are the American problem."

https://apple.news/AYUv-zeWeR-uIiWUfex1oTA

Nahh Jake Paul is just hyping up his next fight. He makes a living fighting guys who are past their prime.

He's going to knock out Joe next in the ring. I'd buy that PPV

[Jeffrey]

Bill Gates isn’t a believer:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/15/tech/...nts/index.html



FWIW.

Strongly agree! I think Gates opinion (given his amazing technology background and strong investing skills) is very enlightening. Gates has been one of the ten wealthiest people in the world, for a very long time, for a very good reason.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Strongly agree! I think Gates opinion (given his amazing technology background and strong investing skills) is very enlightening. Gates has been one of the ten wealthiest people in the world, for a very long time, for a very good reason.

Bill gates is a globalist who thinks that elites like him should control societies, including monetary policies that somehow always seems to benefit those same elites at the expense of the average worker.

For balance, consider that Elon Musk is the most successful businessman ever, believes in freedom of speech and people taking personal responsibility for their money, and oh, he has about a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

Opinions will vary on who’s going to be on the right side of history.

[acdevil]

Bill gates is a globalist who thinks that elites like him should control societies, including monetary policies that somehow always seems to benefit those same elites at the expense of the average worker.

For balance, consider that Elon Musk is the most successful businessman ever, believes in freedom of speech and people taking personal responsibility for their money, and oh, he has about a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

Opinions will vary on who’s going to be on the right side of history.

I’m not going to get in a tit for tat with this post for PPB reasons, but just wow. Given your vehement devotion to crypto, BTC, etc, the opinions expressed above do not surprise me in the least.

[Ggallagher]

Bill gates is a globalist who thinks that elites like him should control societies, including monetary policies that somehow always seems to benefit those same elites at the expense of the average worker.

For balance, consider that Elon Musk is the most successful businessman ever, believes in freedom of speech and people taking personal responsibility for their money, and oh, he has about a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

Opinions will vary on who’s going to be on the right side of history.

I think you're selling Gates a little short here. What someone does with their wealth is important.

Gates has long been recognized as being very wealthy and very, very charitable. Focusing his efforts on poverty and health care.
Musk is recognized as wealthy.....

[bundabergdevil]

I think you're selling Gates a little short here. What someone does with their wealth is important.

Gates has long been recognized as being very wealthy and very, very charitable. Focusing his efforts on poverty and health care.
Musk is recognized as wealthy....

Musk gives away a lot of horses, apparently.

[cspan37421]

Bill gates is a globalist who thinks that elites like him should control societies, including monetary policies that somehow always seems to benefit those same elites at the expense of the average worker.

For balance, consider that Elon Musk is the most successful businessman ever, believes in freedom of speech and people taking personal responsibility for their money, and oh, he has about a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

Opinions will vary on who’s going to be on the right side of history.

Content-free name-calling strikes me as below the standards of this forum - or ought to be.

Also, I don't think "FoS" means what you think it means. I refer you to a succinct treatment at xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1357
Don't miss the mouse-over alt-text:

I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

If you think EM is entirely for FoS, and not just when it serves his purposes, I think you're only noticing what he says, not what he does.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Bill gates is a globalist who thinks that elites like him should control societies, including monetary policies that somehow always seems to benefit those same elites at the expense of the average worker.

For balance, consider that Elon Musk is the most successful businessman ever, believes in freedom of speech and people taking personal responsibility for their money, and oh, he has about a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin.

Opinions will vary on who’s going to be on the right side of history.

I think that crypto, bitcoin, etc. is largely a ponzi scheme. I am extremely skeptical, despite several people I know and respect working in the industry.

That being said, I have appreciated Wheat's efforts to explain his thinking despite being one person against many. He has been a lot more patient than I would be. I disagree with a lot of his logic, but he has been helpful in explaining his thinking.

However, the post above is below DBR. It is straight from Tucker and Sean's Fox News script and has zero basis in fact or logic. I will not even begin to poke holes in it as others have already beaten me to it. Your crypto research, though I think it is largely a waste of time, is a lot less destructive to society than you sharing these falsehoods. DBR is better than this.

[snowdenscold]

Yeah it's clear the technical arguments against the crypto and web3 space don't go anywhere for those who fundamentally believe money should be divorced from any form of government at any cost, no matter the enormous and severe downsides.


The irony is, IMHO, the "average worker" is going to be hurt just as badly if not worse by this space. To quote Nicholas Weaver, we're speed-running 500 years of financial history for choosing bad ideas.


Also, eliminating and/or bootstrapping trust in large, modern technical systems is already a notoriously difficult problem, and trying to follow those turtles all the way down without at some point involving our governmental and legal structures and underpinnings is wishful thinking.

[OldPhiKap]

FWIW, I found Wheat’s post informative. He thinks (as I understand it) that Gates has a political motive for what he said, and Wheat explained what he thinks that motive is. Fair game IMO.

Having said that, we’ve probably taken that issue as far as the rules will allow.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

FWIW, I found Wheat’s post informative. He thinks (as I understand it) that Gates has a political motive for what he said, and Wheat explained what he thinks that motive is. Fair game IMO.

Having said that, we’ve probably taken that issue as far as the rules will allow.

I suspect it's the "elites like him" that may have rankled those who follow the various projects of the Gates Foundation.