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  1. #2681
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    I am having trouble seeing how this thread does not continue to violate the board rules against repetitive rants and against public policy debates. It is abundantly clear that no one’s opinion is changing on this.

    I have no problem with a discussion of how crypto is being used and by whom. I have a lot of heartburn, though, about the continuous advocacy for BTC as an investment. I am sure there are plenty of places where crypto bros and crypto nos can fight about this, but this continuous circular argument is not appropriate here in my opinion. Nor is advocacy for an unregulated investment vehicle that Warren Buffett calls “rat poison squared” and that Bill Gates says is “100% based on greater fool theory.” Whether they are right or wrong, it doesn’t belong on DBR.

    We would not let someone open a thread on gold and advocate continuously for it as an investment vehicle (“the greatest historical store of value!” “Once it’s all mined, there is no more!” “Something that actually has uses and practical applications!”). This discussion seems no different to me.

    We were asked to reopen this thread, and it seems to me that we are back to the exact same place that caused it to be locked in the first place.
    Last edited by OldPhiKap; 06-04-2024 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #2682
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I am having trouble seeing how this thread does not continue to violate the board rules against repetitive rants and against public policy debates. It is abundantly clear that no one’s opinion is changing on this.

    I have no problem with a discussion of how crypto is being used and by whom. I have a lot of heartburn, though, about the continuous advocacy for BTC as an investment. I am sure there are plenty of places where crypto bros and crypto nos can fight about this, but this continuous circular argument is not appropriate here in my opinion. Nor is advocacy for an unregulated investment vehicle that Warren Buffett calls “rat poison squared” and that Bill Gates says is “100% based on greater fool theory.” Whether they are right or wrong, it doesn’t belong on DBR.

    We would not let someone open a thread on gold and advocate continuously for it as an investment vehicle (“the greatest historical store of value!” “Once it’s all mined, there is no more!” “Something that actually has uses and practical applications!”). This discussion seems no different to me.

    We were asked to reopen this thread, and it seems to me that we are back to the exact same place that caused it to be locked in the first place.
    I’m trying to explain Bitcoin as I see it, not advocate for it. And add updated information on Bitcoin adoption.

    I’ve been clear that everyone needs to do their own thing. I choose to own some, whatever you do is up to you, right?

    You won’t be helping anyone understand bitcoin by shutting down debate, and Bitcoin adoption in our financial system is coming.

    ETA, I do think people’s understanding of bitcoin is changing as evidence by the demand in btc ETF’s.

    People are just reading this thread, but not posting their thoughts.

    I’m not sure why?
    Last edited by Wheat/"/"/"; 06-04-2024 at 01:32 PM.

  3. #2683
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I’m trying to explain Bitcoin as I see it, not advocate for it.

    I’ve been clear that everyone needs to do their own thing. I choose to own some, whatever you do is up to you, right?

    You won’t be helping anyone understand bitcoin by shutting down debate, and Bitcoin adoption in our financial system is coming.
    In most intelligent conversations, one lays out the pros and cons and then explains why the pros outweigh the cons. My fourth grader recently did a persuasive speech and this is what he had to do. Ideally, that person also admits the legitimacy of some of the cons. Kind of like how I prefer having conversations with people who can admit they are wrong, as it makes their supportive comments hold more water (which is why I cannot stand a certain politician who has never admitted he was wrong in his life).

    You show no understanding or acceptance of the numerous anti-Crypto comments, but just rehash the same pro-Crypto comments over and over and over. I understand you feel a bit ganged up on but if you showed more humility about some of the flaws of crypto then people might be more receptive to your positive comments.

    I like to think of DBR as an extension of a Duke classroom. The level and rules of discourse should be similar to that (noting that many of the "best", most intelligent, most respected posters here are not alums of Duke). That is not what is happening here.

    I think this thread is a giant waste of time, and I'm not sure why I keep coming back. I would not be opposed to shutting it down.

  4. #2684
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I think this thread is a giant waste of time, and I'm not sure why I keep coming back. I would not be opposed to shutting it down.
    I’ll try to help make the decision easier on the mods.

    If I don’t see some posts in the next couple of days supporting my contributions to this thread, I’m moving on to some other topic I might find interesting here.

  5. #2685
    Here's an actual new topic.

    Bitcoin miners sink millions into AI businesses, seeking billions in return

    I wouldn't be shocked if this becomes part of a trend. Because of the similarities in power draw and infrastructure mining operations are ideal for conversion to AI processing centers. In a world with less to no mining rewards and few transactions because people only hold BTC miners will pivot and AI gives them an out. It also mean miners and AI companies are going to be competing for the same real estate and cheap power. That drives both up for everybody. Because of the limited upside to mining they are going to have to transition to something eventually. Less miners means less security.

    Many bitcoin mining firms have been retrofitting existing facilities to service AI clients as revenue from crypto mining plummets.

  6. #2686
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Because of the limited upside to mining they are going to have to transition to something eventually. Less miners means less security.
    That is always the rub with crypto. Eventually, something better will come along. It always does.

  7. #2687
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I am having trouble seeing how this thread does not continue to violate the board rules against repetitive rants and against public policy debates. It is abundantly clear that no one’s opinion is changing on this.

    I have no problem with a discussion of how crypto is being used and by whom. I have a lot of heartburn, though, about the continuous advocacy for BTC as an investment. I am sure there are plenty of places where crypto bros and crypto nos can fight about this, but this continuous circular argument is not appropriate here in my opinion. Nor is advocacy for an unregulated investment vehicle that Warren Buffett calls “rat poison squared” and that Bill Gates says is “100% based on greater fool theory.” Whether they are right or wrong, it doesn’t belong on DBR.

    We would not let someone open a thread on gold and advocate continuously for it as an investment vehicle (“the greatest historical store of value!” “Once it’s all mined, there is no more!” “Something that actually has uses and practical applications!”). This discussion seems no different to me.

    We were asked to reopen this thread, and it seems to me that we are back to the exact same place that caused it to be locked in the first place.

    Honestly I just disagree with this entire post. The thread had NO basis for being shut last time and doesn’t now either. I disagree with Wheat whole heartedly on this BTC topic but the thread violates nothing you stated imo. It’s incredibly informative and one of maybe like 4 I even bother to check.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  8. #2688
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    That is always the rub with crypto. Eventually, something better will come along. It always does.
    Agreed. My other issue too is still the one I’ve not heard an answer to. IF btc ever even became a threat, it would take nothing for the government to shut it down or even start its own digitization of currency which would quickly surpass BTC because the biggest flaw it has is the one the proponents of btc advocate… it has no government agency backing it, which is what we want. I only use the banks I do BECAUSE the government is involved. You take that away and I take my money away from it.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  9. #2689
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    Agreed. My other issue too is still the one I’ve not heard an answer to. IF btc ever even became a threat, it would take nothing for the government to shut it down……….

    *I’ll try to answer this issue for you as I see it…

    Two things…first, I don’t see Bitcoin as a threat to the dollar, just like gold is not a threat to the dollar today. The U.S. will continue to have its currency for everyday transactions. Bitcoin is a digital property for savings, sort of a digital bank account to save your dollars in where they won’t lose their value.

    IMO, BTC should mainly be looked at as valuable, scarce digital property, something you can own, like gold, art, or a unique collectible car that’s desirable and other people place value in too.

    Since it’s digital, that “property” can be exchanged easily between two parties without an intermediary other than the network. So it’s something like a currency in that sense, but different. I don’t see btc as a currency in the developed world, but as a portable store of value asset, that’s its primary use case to me.

    As for the government easily shutting it down, there’s two things that make that very unlikely.

    First, as a U.S Citizen, I have property rights granted to me through the constitution, digital or physical. I’ll sue the U.S. government if there is an attempt to ban or confiscate my property and I’m confident I would prevail in court.

    If I was to lose in court, I could just leave this country and gravitate to a place that valued my Bitcoin.

    Secondly, Bitcoin lives decentralized on the internet, protected by the most powerful computer network in the world. While it’s theoretically possible for it to be overpowered by someone, the financial commitment, and the energy commitment necessary makes it extremely unlikely there is any appetite to attack the BTC network. And now that 50 +million U.S. citizens, along with growing institutional ownership of Bitcoin made easy by Wall Street through these SEC regulated Bitcoin ETf’s, I think any possibility of trying to ban BTC by the U.S. government is highly unlikely. That ship has sailed.


    ………or even start its own digitization of currency which would quickly surpass BTC because the biggest flaw it has is the one the proponents of btc advocate… it has no government agency backing it, which is what we want. I only use the banks I do BECAUSE the government is involved. You take that away and I take my money away from it.

    *Again, I think you are concerned with btc challenging the dollar, and I don’t think that’s an issue.

    Nobody backs gold, right? Gold just…is. BTC just….is. Both hold value from the faith people put in them.

    Think about BTC as a representation of digital gold.
    I’m doing my best to not be repetitive and answer questions people have. My only goal is to try and help people understand Bitcoin because I believe it can be a force for good in our financial system.

    Bitcoin growth is happening faster than the growth of the internet in the 90’ around the world. It’s sneaking up on people.

    I think this thread can be a very valuable for this community and debate should be encouraged by the moderators, as long as people stay civil.

  10. #2690

  11. #2691
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    How does using massive amounts of energy on crypto make us "energy dominant"? I'm trying to wrap my head around this way of thinking, but I just don't get it. It is exactly backwards.

  12. #2692
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    How does using massive amounts of energy on crypto make us "energy dominant"? I'm trying to wrap my head around this way of thinking, but I just don't get it. It is exactly backwards.
    It's easy to figure out based on the articles linked above, Trump - who in 2019 was very much against bitcoin - met with bitcoin company executives at Mara-Lago, they explained everything to him, he's now an "expert" and wants to help them out. Out of the goodness of his heart. It's like pandering to the wait staff in Vegas by telling them he won't tax their tips, he's after the bitcoin vote now.

  13. #2693
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    How does using massive amounts of energy on crypto make us "energy dominant"? I'm trying to wrap my head around this way of thinking, but I just don't get it. It is exactly backwards.
    First, it’s important for everyone to understand that having a digital form of money that is incorruptible and sound is worth the energy required to secure the network.

    To answer your question…

    Bitcoin mining monetizes excess or wasted energy supply, providing capital back into the electrical grid and strengthening the grids where they operate. That’s the short answer.

    So consider that the Bitcoin network is the buyer of last resort for those energy grids that have excess power supply.
    This “wasted” energy is not monetized by the producers of the energy in many areas.
    When Bitcoin miners come in and buy that excess power, they help fund the expansion, growth and strength of the grid, benefiting all users of the grid.

    BTC miners also provide balance and stability for the grid due to their ability to shut down in times of high demand where there is no excess power available, then turn back on, providing that monetization where there would otherwise be no capital infusion back into the grid, during times of excess supply.

  14. #2694
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Bitcoin does not care about politics.

    (Although politicians increasingly seem to care about Bitcoin).

    Bitcoin is simply an apolitical digital asset for people to use as sound money.

    Or not, your choice.

  15. #2695
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Bitcoin does not care about politics.

    (Although politicians increasingly seem to care about Bitcoin).

    Bitcoin is simply an apolitical digital asset for people to use as sound money.

    Or not, your choice.
    The point is there is a rube here. Whether it's the poster or the target or both is up for debate. It's a nonsense statement in a particular area filled with much noise. The fact that someone will believe this is dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    First, it’s important for everyone to understand that having a digital form of money that is incorruptible and sound is worth the energy required to secure the network.

    To answer your question…

    Bitcoin mining monetizes excess or wasted energy supply, providing capital back into the electrical grid and strengthening the grids where they operate. That’s the short answer.

    So consider that the Bitcoin network is the buyer of last resort for those energy grids that have excess power supply.
    This “wasted” energy is not monetized by the producers of the energy in many areas.
    When Bitcoin miners come in and buy that excess power, they help fund the expansion, growth and strength of the grid, benefiting all users of the grid.

    BTC miners also provide balance and stability for the grid due to their ability to shut down in times of high demand where there is no excess power available, then turn back on, providing that monetization where there would otherwise be no capital infusion back into the grid, during times of excess supply.
    I'm not going to engage for the umpteenth time but have to ask. You trying to get the thread shutdown? And I'm being serious.

  16. #2696
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    The point is there is a rube here. Whether it's the poster or the target or both is up for debate. It's a nonsense statement in a particular area filled with much noise. The fact that someone will believe this is dangerous.



    I'm not going to engage for the umpteenth time but have to ask. You trying to get the thread shutdown? And I'm being serious.
    I simply replied to another board members question with an explanation as clearly and concise as possible about the Bitcoin energy use issue he/she had. I don’t see a problem?

    As for your post, it appeared to me to violate obvious board rules against discussion of political debate here, so I did not respond to it.

    My only point in the reply to you was Bitcoin itself does not have a political “side”.

  17. #2697
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    I simply replied to another board members question with an explanation as clearly and concise as possible about the Bitcoin energy use issue he/she had. I don’t see a problem?

    As for your post, it appeared to me to violate obvious board rules against discussion of political debate here, so I did not respond to it.
    Then that would be the issue. We use facts not propaganda that has been debunked most recently with Kenya as the example.

    My post was not political. It's to point that that people with a platform will shout out trash and people they target will believe it. That's what's holding up the house of cards.

  18. #2698
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    First, it’s important for everyone to understand that having a digital form of money that is incorruptible and sound is worth the energy required to secure the network.
    This is not a fact, it's a value judgment. Therefore, it is not something to be understood, but something to be evaluated and accepted or rejected to varying degrees by each person. As I've stated, I strongly disagree with your judgment in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Bitcoin mining monetizes excess or wasted energy supply
    Bitcoin does not solely use "excess" energy, and there is very little energy even available that is truly "excess". There is some, of course, but in general, we don't generate electricity for funsies. Increases in market demand, such as that coming from mining, carries impacts on both residual availability and especially price. To the extent Bitcoin mining expands the grid, it does so for it's own benefit, not for the overall benefit of the community. I would argue that Bitcoin energy use strengthens the overall economy considerably less that most other uses, since Bitcoin mining operations are very lightly staffed and provide few community jobs and relatively low tax revenues compared to the intense energy draw.

    But I agree that much of this is rehash, so I won't be delving further.

  19. #2699
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    This is not a fact, it's a value judgment. Therefore, it is not something to be understood, but something to be evaluated and accepted or rejected to varying degrees by each person. As I've stated, I strongly disagree with your judgment in this regard.



    Bitcoin does not solely use "excess" energy, and there is very little energy even available that is truly "excess". There is some, of course, but in general, we don't generate electricity for funsies. Increases in market demand, such as that coming from mining, carries impacts on both residual availability and especially price. To the extent Bitcoin mining expands the grid, it does so for it's own benefit, not for the overall benefit of the community. I would argue that Bitcoin energy use strengthens the overall economy considerably less that most other uses, since Bitcoin mining operations are very lightly staffed and provide few community jobs and relatively low tax revenues compared to the intense energy draw.

    But I agree that much of this is rehash, so I won't be delving further.
    I’m just offering my perspective on the subject. Feel free to disagree.

    Moving on… so as to avoid anything repetitive.

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