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  1. #1601
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Governments cannot interfere with an internet-based currency?

    I would not feel comfortable if I was in Iran right now about unfettered internet access.

    https://www.axios.com/2022/09/21/ira...ns-mahsa-amini

  2. #1602
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk - what is the magical property of Bitcoin that makes it impervious to political manipulation? That seems nearly impossible. Even if it's a truly independent currency, politicians can be pretty tricksy with how they can influence, well, pretty much anything.

    Do you just mean because the quantity is fixed, so they can't "print more?" Because there seem to be many many other ways one can manipulate the value of a commodity.

    Are you saying it isn't a commodity?

    Full disclosure, I'm generally in favor of the actions politicians take to manipulate value - for the most part they seem to do things that protect it. I'm just curious as to where this basic belief comes from.

    I'll take your answer off the air.
    As noted before, Bitcoin doesnít fit neatly into a box and has evolved over the past thirteen years.

    Yes, itís a commodity. Itís also a digital property. And itís a currency. And itís a base settlement layer for a payment rail system.

    I recommend reading Satoshi Nakamotoís original introduction of BTC in his white paper as a start.

    And how Satoshi solved the Byzantine Generals' problem for a more detailed response than I can provide here.

    As for political manipulations, yes, politicians know no bounds when it comes to manipulating currencies and markets.

    But they canít manipulate BTC, the core digital asset.

    The BTC proof of work network assures that there is no necessity for a trusted third party, (like a state, government or bank, anyone), to maintain the absolute scarcity of the 21 million coins, and the accounting of those coins.

    A quote from the white paperÖ

    ďProof-of-work also solves the problem of determining representation in majority decision making. If the majority were based on one-IP-address-one-vote, it could be subverted by anyone able to allocate many IPs. Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote. The majority decision is represented by the longest chain, which has the greatest proof-of-work effort invested in it. If a majority of CPU power is controlled by honest nodes, the honest chain will grow the fastest and outpace any competing chains.Ē
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  3. #1603
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Governments cannot interfere with an internet-based currency?

    I would not feel comfortable if I was in Iran right now about unfettered internet access.

    https://www.axios.com/2022/09/21/ira...ns-mahsa-amini
    Sure, they can interfere with the internet, but they canít change BTC no matter what they do.

    This will not end well for the Iranian government over time. The people will not stand for it.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  4. #1604
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Governments cannot interfere with an internet-based currency?

    I would not feel comfortable if I was in Iran right now about unfettered internet access.

    https://www.axios.com/2022/09/21/ira...ns-mahsa-amini
    I forgot to mention that there are alternatives possible for the use of BTC that does not involve using the internet.

    Bitcoin is very resilient.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  5. #1605
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Sure, they can interfere with the internet, but they can’t change BTC no matter what they do.

    This will not end well for the Iranian government over time. The people will not stand for it.
    It's from Starship Troopers. I'm tagging it NSFW just in case.



    Also disabling SMS is easier than disabling the internet. That "system" you linked to is dogdy as hell.
    Last edited by Kdogg; 09-22-2022 at 09:40 AM.

  6. #1606
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    It's from Starship Troopers. I'm tagging it NSFW just in case.



    Also disabling SMS is easier than disabling the internet. That "system" you linked to is dogdy as hell.
    Sure, shut down all sms phone service and see how that goes over.

    There are ďalternatives possibleĒ to use BTC without internet is what I said.

    Itís way early in the development of Bitcoin and how to use it.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  7. #1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Sure, shut down all sms phone service and see how that goes over.
    Kashmir 2019. Because you donít know it happens doesnít mean it hasnít happened.

    Also Bitcoin has been around 13 years. ThatĎs ancient in technology terms. For reference TikTok has been around for six years.

  8. #1608
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Kashmir 2019. Because you don’t know it happens doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

    Also Bitcoin has been around 13 years. That‘s ancient in technology terms. For reference TikTok has been around for six years.
    Can you explain why you see Bitcoin as your “enemy “?

    What properties are you against?
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  9. #1609
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Can you explain why you see Bitcoin as your “enemy “?

    What properties are you against?
    I don't. Not a fan of the energy usage of course. I just don't see it as transformative. It's a spec asset. I think I've made that clear.

    The image was in reference to Iran, how they see the protesters (the enemy) and how by disabling the internet/phones (the hand) they would prevent them from using Bitcoin. The Iran goal is not to control Bitcoin. It's to control access. That's all that is required.

  10. #1610
    If you were arguing that bitcoin has promise for reasons x, y and z while acknowledging it had weaknesses a, b and c you would get much less pushback Wheat. But the endless and repetitive worship of bitcoin as mankindís savior from poverty, evil governments, inflation, theft, coupled with your denial or hand waving away of itís many serious issues around security, energy use, speculative value and so on makes you come across as a shill or devotee rather than an objective, rational proponent of crypto.

  11. #1611
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Skydog View Post
    If you were arguing that bitcoin has promise for reasons x, y and z while acknowledging it had weaknesses a, b and c you would get much less pushback Wheat. But the endless and repetitive worship of bitcoin as mankindís savior from poverty, evil governments, inflation, theft, coupled with your denial or hand waving away of itís many serious issues around security, energy use, speculative value and so on makes you come across as a shill or devotee rather than an objective, rational proponent of crypto.
    I would love to be less repetitive, trust me, but I see the same misunderstandings about Bitcoin over and over again that needs to be challenged. I would welcome a break from the same discussions, too.

    To be clear, Iíve never hand waved any serious issues of BTC.

    Iíve patiently explained how itís energy use is absolutely necessary and a net plus to strengthen energy grids, develop more sustainable renewables while also monetizing stranded, wasted energy.

    Iíve discussed security issues head on many times in this thread, everything from POW to the difference between a cold and hot wallet.

    Iíve also acknowledged the speculative trading, especially leverage trading, of this young digital asset, and yes, many times.

    All as detailed as time allows.

    So yea, Iím a Bitcoin proponent and see is a as big solver of many issues going forward, I make no apologies for that.

    Iíd love to discuss how to make better Lightning wallets. Or the daily growth of the Bitcoin infrastructure, etcÖletís make it happen.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  12. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Iíve patiently explained how itís energy use is absolutely necessary and a net plus to strengthen energy grids, develop more sustainable renewables while also monetizing stranded, wasted energy.
    Many of us, myself included, simply disagree that there are any positives to crypto's energy usage.

    "stranded, wasted energy" is a new one to me.

  13. #1613
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post

    To be clear, I’ve never hand waved any serious issues of BTC.

    I’ve patiently explained how it’s energy use is absolutely necessary and a net plus to strengthen energy grids, develop more sustainable renewables while also monetizing stranded, wasted energy.
    Your views on the energy issues have been rebutted many times in this thread with little acknowledgment from you. Your second sentence is very much a hand wave.
    Last edited by -jk; 09-22-2022 at 10:16 PM. Reason: fix quote tag

  14. #1614
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    Many of us, myself included, simply disagree that there are any positives to crypto's energy usage.

    "stranded, wasted energy" is a new one to me.
    I'm totally on your side and generally think that it is a waste of energy. But there are some cases where the energy is being produced and can be sold profitably to the crypto miners. If a hydro plant has a production capacity of X and is operating below capacity, then if the crypto miners use some of that otherwise unused capacity, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. But that is often not the case, and it is not a reason for the existence of crypto.

    Meanwhile, a fairly smart, successful guy who knows a bit about finance named Jamie Dimon made it clear that he is not a fan of bitcoin. He is supportive of blockchain.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jamie...112527469.html

  15. #1615
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Meanwhile, a fairly smart, successful guy who knows a bit about finance named Jamie Dimon made it clear that he is not a fan of bitcoin. He is supportive of blockchain.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jamie...112527469.html
    Within the next three years, I predict Jamie (and a few of his peers) will be working with the US Treasury Department to create a digital USA coin (the worldís preferred digital coin).

  16. #1616
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Within the next three years, I predict Jamie (and a few of his peers) will be working with the US Treasury Department to create a digital USA coin (the worldís preferred digital coin).
    I'm not 100% familiar with his politics but I think I wish he would run for mayor of my fine city. I think at least one of his kids went to Duke - I believe I saw him do a zoom presentation via Duke during covid.

    I also trust his opinions on Bitcoin a lot more than the writers for BitcoinsRCool.com

  17. #1617
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I'm not 100% familiar with his politics but I think I wish he would run for mayor of my fine city. I think at least one of his kids went to Duke - I believe I saw him do a zoom presentation via Duke during covid.

    I also trust his opinions on Bitcoin a lot more than the writers for BitcoinsRCool.com
    Jamie leans left and has a Duke daughter. I think itís more likely he will become Treasury Secretary than NYC Mayor. I doubt he would do it, but he would also be a great President of the New York Fed.

  18. #1618
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Blue Lemur View Post
    Your views on the energy issues have been rebutted many times in this thread with little acknowledgment from you. Your second sentence is very much a hand wave.
    Whoís really doing the hand wave?

    Iíve offered many detailed statistics and proven that even if Bitcoin were to disappear tomorrow there would be no measurable impact on world energy use, that energy grids can be strengthened with BTC use, and that BTCís stranded energy usage, like gas flares or excess hydro energy in remote locations is growing. Also that more than 50% of BTC use is renewable.

    Iíve also done my best to try to help those interested in understanding that the energy use is worth it for a world wide digital asset with unmatched security.

    Often the only reply here is that BTC uses more energy than some small country so I donít like it, without going deeper into the benefits and necessity of that energy use.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  19. #1619
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I'm not 100% familiar with his politics but I think I wish he would run for mayor of my fine city. I think at least one of his kids went to Duke - I believe I saw him do a zoom presentation via Duke during covid.

    I also trust his opinions on Bitcoin a lot more than the writers for BitcoinsRCool.com
    “Watch what they do, not what they say.”

    Ever thought much about his motives for railing against the threat of Bitcoin with regards to what a successfully adopted Bitcoin network might do to his, and his banks, power?

    Remember JPM Coin? Next Step Is Programmable Money, Bank Exec Says

    Programmable to do what? At whose direction? There are big questions.

    Remember this?

    JPMorgan to give all wealth clients access to crypto funds - Business Insider


    Oh, just his wealthy clients to get access first on the limited supply of BTC.

    If he really thinks Bitcoin is a “Ponzi Scheme” he’s a willing participant.

    All these guys care about is control of the money and the power to enrich themselves.
    Last edited by Wheat/"/"/"; 09-23-2022 at 12:03 AM.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  20. #1620
    Same bank, different personÖ.

    Bad crypto newsÖ.

    ďJPMorgan Chaseís global head of payments, Takis Georgakopoulos, argues cryptocurrency has ďa niche use caseĒ and said the demand for cryptocurrencies as a payment method has seen a drastic decline in the past six months.Ē

    https://stocks.apple.com/ATppnzTxUQFaHcXlPTCostQ

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