Crypto Conversation

[Kdogg]

I
To quote founding father Thomas Jefferson:

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

Nope.

Again just a little verification. Jefferson never said such a thing. Even without looking into it, I can tell the tone and structure is not consistent with Jefferson.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ious-quotation

And the actually letter, from the Library of Congress, that doesn’t remotely talk about the subject.

https://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/m..._0147_0148.pdf

Jefferson wasn’t against banking. He just wanted it at a state level.

Edit: Further debunking.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bank-shot-2/

[Kdogg]

Consider that just recently we saw the Democratic government of Canada direct their central banks to seize donated funds from the accounts of peaceful, but granted, disruptive, opposition protesters, through executive order of the Prime Minister. Note this was done without any prior due process from any court of law where the opposition could make its legal case in defense of their actions.

The crux of it was Central banks simply seized the political opposition funds at the whim of the rival politician in power. That’s what happened in democratic Canada.

Whether you agree with the opposition, or the politician in power, is irrelevant. The next time the tables could be turned, and it wouldn’t make it any more right.

Again Nope.

The Canadian PM did not use an “executive order.” They don’t even have that. What they do have is a Order in Council which was not used.

What was used was the The Emergencies Act passed by the legislation in 1988. Yes a legal law, passed by democratic Canada was used legally! By the way “due process” in the US is not the same thing around world the world. In Canada fundamental justices based on societal consensus is the rule. I can guarantee you the people of Windsor and most of Canada’s societal consensus was honored. That’s why there was no uproar in Canada. Only in places that do not understand Canadian law.

Again this goes to the root of how Bitcoin and crypto are promoted online. People use fear and nescience of a dystopian future to promote it as the slayer of an imaginary Baba Yaga instead it’s merits.

[Jeffrey]

Nope.

Again just a little verification. Jefferson never said such a thing. Even without looking into it, I can tell the tone and structure is not consistent with Jefferson.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ious-quotation

And the actually letter, from the Library of Congress, that doesn’t remotely talk about the subject.

https://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/m..._0147_0148.pdf

Jefferson wasn’t against banking. He just wanted it at a state level.

Edit: Further debunking.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bank-shot-2/

The game is cutting and pasting. Verifying and researching are not part of the game plan.

[OldPhiKap]

Unfortunately, we have to put our trust somewhere.

Humans, who run governments and banks, have proven to be less than trustworthy when it comes to money, as a whole, in the planet’s history…just sayin’

A public open sourced, decentralized computer network is governing the ledger verification of BTC, and is done without human emotions, like greed.

I’m comfortable putting some faith in 2+2 equals 4 and knowing it’s verified by tens of thousands of computers with skin in the game to maintain BTC’s integrity.

But that’s just me….

But the same people that regulate banks are gonna regulate BTC. No?

In fact, isn’t it worse because BTC will be regulated by a group of multinational bodies?

If I don’t trust Jerome Powell, will I trust something more if it is influenced by by him, Christine Lagarde, and Haruhiko Kuroda combined? Or regulated by the EU Parliament?

[-jk]

The whole world’s economy is struggling now, and the crypto ecosystem is going through its own 2008 Lehman Brothers moment right now with many exchanges, stablecoin, venture capitalists, and other various projects facing liquidation, mainly due to being unregulated and over leveraged.

It began with the collapse of the Luna not so stable coin, and the contagion has spread to the collapse of Three Arrows Capital, the Voyager exchange, and put serious pressure on the Celsius exchange, the Tether stablecoin, and the BlockFi exchange, which was saved at the last minute by FTX crypto multi billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried buying it. More pain is yet to come, I suspect.

The crypto toilet is being flushed, and only the strong will survive. There is no government or bank bailout for the crypto segment.

Bitcoin was being used as collateral by many of these troubled VC’s, stablecoins and exchanges. The past few weeks there has been a lot of sell pressure on BTC as they liquiddated their BTC for dollars, driving the price to below $20,000 per BTC.

I’m actually encouraged that BTC has fared as well as it has on price, there’s been a lot of selling going on by the liquidation of these failures.

The worst part of it has been the new retail BTC investor that didn’t take the “not your keys, not your coins” mantra of experienced Bitcoiners seriously and purchased their BTC and then left it on an exchange, like Voyager.
Voyager had taken their BTC and leverage loaned it out. Now that they are facing bankruptcy, those coins are lost to the people who left them on Voyager, barring some Miracle.

I buy my Bitcoin on Gemini. It’s a solid US regulated exchange based in NewYork, which has additional State regulations for exchanges.

Once I purchase my BTC, I transfer it to a Ledger cold storage wallet where it’s kept offline and secure on basically a thumb drive disconnected from the internet.

I take personal responsibility for securing my BTC. I don’t leave it on the exchange.

I’m curious about the mechanics of keeping it offline.

What sort of drive? I’ve seen drives of all sorts fail. Is your ledger duplicated? Stored in separate locations? And, given where you live, in hurricane-proof storage? Do you verify data integrity regularly?

Is the drive password protected? And is the password also documented/duplicated/stored in case you get hit by that bus my boss used to worry about? (Alternatively, queue up the Jaws theme.)

-jk

[Wheat/"/"/"]

But the same people that regulate banks are gonna regulate BTC. No?

In fact, isn’t it worse because BTC will be regulated by a group of multinational bodies?

If I don’t trust Jerome Powell, will I trust something more if it is influenced by by him, Christine Lagarde, and Haruhiko Kuroda combined? Or regulated by the EU Parliament?

No, BTC is not regulated by the same people. The integrity of BTC is maintained by the entire, decentralized computer network. (Miners).

The regulators can regulate how it’s traded on the financial markets they control, but BTC itself is also a peer to peer property.

We can easily exchange the value we hold in BTC between each other, or between anyone in the world, without that exchange being regulated by governments, or banks.

[Kdogg]

I’m curious about the mechanics of keeping it offline.

What sort of drive? I’ve seen drives of all sorts fail. Is your ledger duplicated? Stored in separate locations? And, given where you live, in hurricane-proof storage? Do you verify data integrity regularly?

Is the drive password protected? And is the password also documented/duplicated/stored in case you get hit by that bus my boss used to worry about? (Alternatively, queue up the Jaws theme.)

-jk

Hardware wallets can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Some look like USB thumb drives others like stacked credit cards and some don't even have ports. There is not a standard hardware wallet. Ledger (I also have one) and Trevor are the most well know but there are many others. To access the wallet you need to enter a PIN on the device. You also need one to authorize any outgoing transaction. If the hardware fails you can buy another drive and retrieve your wallet. When setting up the wallet you are given a seed phrase on the hardware. This also applies to software wallets. It's a 12 or 18 or 24 (Ledger) list of words that you have to record on paper or if you are hardcore one of these options. That seed phrase allows you to reconstruct the wallet. People can get paranoid about that seed phrase going as far as setting up the wallet on a computer that has need been connected to the internet. That seed phrase is critical though.They also get paranoid about where they buy the hardware wallet from to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. Amazon's not a great place to buy it because they commingle inventory.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I’m curious about the mechanics of keeping it offline.

What sort of drive? I’ve seen drives of all sorts fail. Is your ledger duplicated? Stored in separate locations? And, given where you live, in hurricane-proof storage? Do you verify data integrity regularly?

Is the drive password protected? And is the password also documented/duplicated/stored in case you get hit by that bus my boss used to worry about? (Alternatively, queue up the Jaws theme.)

-jk

I use a Ledger Nano S cold storage wallet.

I’m honestly not a very technical person. I’m the 64 yr old “Boomer” these younger kids like to make fun of when it comes to all the tech in the world today. But I read a lot and try to pay attention.

When I became interested in Bitcoin, I forced myself to learn the basics of how to move it around and most importantly, how to store it securely and responsibly myself. Don’t leave your BTC on exchanges. It took some time to become comfortable with it all.

The ledger Nano S has a 9 digit pin # that must be entered when it’s connected to the Ledger Live web site by USB on your computer that shows your BTC. That pin # must be entered before you can move your BTC, so keep that pin # private.
If somebody was to steal your ledger, they would have to have that pin # to use it. If somebody got your pin #, they’d have to have the physical ledger as well to move your BTC.

When you set up the ledger you generate a random 24 word seed phrase. This is to be kept in the most secure place you have. If you lose the ledger, or it gets destroyed or stolen, you must have the seed phrase to set up a new ledger. Your BTC will be lost forever if you lose that seed phrase and the ledger.

Also, you need to store clearly written instructions with your seed words for your family to understand what to do with your BTC, in case something happens to you.

Here’s how I entered the space, and I recommend anyone interested to follow these steps to get acclimated to the process. Again, it all takes time.

Step 1: Open a crypto only bank account and link it to the Gemini exchange.

Step 2: Buy a small amount of Bitcoin. Say $100 bucks.

Step 3: Buy a Ledger Nano S and set it up. Use only the official Ledger web site to purchase.

Step 4: Transfer $50 of BTC from Gemini to the ledger.

Step 5: Transfer $25 of BTC from the ledger back to Gemini.

Step 6: Sell $50 of BTC and transfer dollars back to the crypto bank account.

Step 7: Rinse and repeat until comfortable with the process.

[OldPhiKap]

No, BTC is not regulated by the same people. The integrity of BTC is maintained by the entire, decentralized computer network. (Miners).

The regulators can regulate how it’s traded on the financial markets they control, but BTC itself is also a peer to peer property.

We can easily exchange the value we hold in BTC between each other, or between anyone in the world, without that exchange being regulated by governments, or banks.

It can never be a widely-accepted currency without much more invasive regulation than you are considering, I think. Regulating how it’s traded, for example, could mean requiring the disclosure of the parties to the transaction. It could require disclosure of transactions to the IRS. The miners don’t set the regulations, the same people who regulate money and investments will. No?

[Kdogg]

The ledger Nano S has a 9 digit pin # that must be entered when it’s connected to the Ledger Live web site by USB on your computer that shows your BTC. That pin # must be entered before you can move your BTC, so keep that pin # private.

You can set it up with the Electrum wallet and use the Lightning Network. Every time you use the Ledger Live wallet you get hit with a network fee that eats away from the balance. I'm surprised you didn't know that from all the research into Lightning. Ledger Live has yet to support Lightning natively.

No, BTC is not regulated by the same people. The integrity of BTC is maintained by the entire, decentralized computer network. (Miners).

Node operators say hi.

[-jk]

I use a Ledger Nano S cold storage wallet.

I’m honestly not a very technical person. I’m the 64 yr old “Boomer” these younger kids like to make fun of when it comes to all the tech in the world today. But I read a lot and try to pay attention.

When I became interested in Bitcoin, I forced myself to learn the basics of how to move it around and most importantly, how to store it securely and responsibly myself. Don’t leave your BTC on exchanges. It took some time to become comfortable with it all.

The ledger Nano S has a 9 digit pin # that must be entered when it’s connected to the Ledger Live web site by USB on your computer that shows your BTC. That pin # must be entered before you can move your BTC, so keep that pin # private.
If somebody was to steal your ledger, they would have to have that pin # to use it. If somebody got your pin #, they’d have to have the physical ledger as well to move your BTC.

When you set up the ledger you generate a random 24 word seed phrase. This is to be kept in the most secure place you have. If you lose the ledger, or it gets destroyed or stolen, you must have the seed phrase to set up a new ledger. Your BTC will be lost forever if you lose that seed phrase and the ledger.

Also, you need to store clearly written instructions with your seed words for your family to understand what to do with your BTC, in case something happens to you.

Here’s how I entered the space, and I recommend anyone interested to follow these steps to get acclimated to the process. Again, it all takes time.

Step 1: Open a crypto only bank account and link it to the Gemini exchange.

Step 2: Buy a small amount of Bitcoin. Say $100 bucks.

Step 3: Buy a Ledger Nano S and set it up. Use only the official Ledger web site to purchase.

Step 4: Transfer $50 of BTC from Gemini to the ledger.

Step 5: Transfer $25 of BTC from the ledger back to Gemini.

Step 6: Sell $50 of BTC and transfer dollars back to the crypto bank account.

Step 7: Rinse and repeat until comfortable with the process.

Thanks for the description. How do you store your 24 word seed phrase? Seems that’s the piece that really matters.

-jk

[Wheat/"/"/"]

But I read it on the internet, it must be true.

Granted, I didn’t go deep into research on that quote I saw attributed to Jefferson, so I was unaware there are challenges to it.

So be it. There’s only so much time in the day.

I got curious, so I did check on the BIS meeting that “Guy” claimed in his video was unusual and I found this on the BIS web site….

“Extraordinary General Meetings must be called in order to amend the Statutes of the Bank, change its authorised capital or liquidate the Bank.”

Then I ran across this…..

“Bank for International Settlements to allow banks to keep 1% of reserves in Bitcoin”

Maybe this was the “extraordinary” general meeting he was talking about that I assume the BIS had to hold in order to change its authorized capital to 1% Bitcoin?

While “Guy” definitely hypes up his opinions on his YouTube channel, I’ve found him to usually be pretty factual overall, best I can tell.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Thanks for the description. How do you store your 24 word seed phrase? Seems that’s the piece that really matters.

-jk

I could tell you, but I’d have to shoot you.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You can set it up with the Electrum wallet and use the Lightning Network. Every time you use the Ledger Live wallet you get hit with a network fee that eats away from the balance. I'm surprised you didn't know that from all the research into Lightning. Ledger Live has yet to support Lightning natively.

I’m not doing enough BTC transactions on ledger to worry about fees. I’m just hodling there.

I use my Muun Lightning wallet for small, everyday transactions.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Nope.

Again just a little verification. Jefferson never said such a thing. Even without looking into it, I can tell the tone and structure is not consistent with Jefferson.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ious-quotation

And the actually letter, from the Library of Congress, that doesn’t remotely talk about the subject.

https://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/m..._0147_0148.pdf

Jefferson wasn’t against banking. He just wanted it at a state level.

Edit: Further debunking.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bank-shot-2/

Bah. Facts, schmacts. If you want your mind blown, look up all the amazing things Abraham Lincoln said about the internet.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Bah. Facts, schmacts. If you want your mind blown, look up all the amazing things Abraham Lincoln said about the internet.

Why do you think he wore the big hat? To store all of his passwords.

[Skydog]

But I read it on the internet, it must be true.

Granted, I didn’t go deep into research on that quote I saw attributed to Jefferson, so I was unaware there are challenges to it.

So be it. There’s only so much time in the day.

...

"There are challenges to it." This is the kind of bs misdirection that drives me off the wall. There aren't "challenges" to the claim - it was proven to be utter bullshxx. You were given a copy of the actual letter as proof, but you just label that a "challenge?" That's just another bad step in the direction of the "what is truth anyway?" movement plaguing our world.

Wheat, when you engage and argue back honestly against arguments against crypto you provide a service because of your knowledge in the field. And intellectually honest argument can lead to learning on both sides. But throwing up links to crypto propaganda sites undermines whatever credibility you have earned.

I've noticed that for some reason people who love to rail against "mainstream media" are also most apt to fall for youtube propaganda peppered with gigantic red flags, like massive financial conflicts of interest for the speaker, fake quotes and stories (that sound fake and are easily checked for accuracy from the get-go), and a complete absence of balance of information. Mainstream media has errors, reporters tend to lean liberal (that's inevitable in a profession that lures in people who find enough appeal in getting the truth out there to overcome the inevitable low pay, low prestige and long work hours), but unlike Youtube lectures and social media, mainstream media also has accountability and works for some type of balance of info (even if it leans one way or the other). If the NYT's ever attributed such an easily debunked quote to Jefferson it would be pilloried by the rest of media, forced to apologize and publicly retract such bs. But that youtube video will be consumed as is by it's gullible audience around the world, with no accountability for accuracy whatsoever.

tldr vers; Providing links to one-sided cryptocurrency propaganda videos/articles riddled with easily spotted blatant falsehoods isn't helping the your or Bitcoin's credibility.

[Kdogg]

But I read it on the internet, it must be true.

Granted, I didn’t go deep into research on that quote I saw attributed to Jefferson, so I was unaware there are challenges to it.

So be it. There’s only so much time in the day.

I got curious, so I did check on the BIS meeting that “Guy” claimed in his video was unusual and I found this on the BIS web site….

“Extraordinary General Meetings must be called in order to amend the Statutes of the Bank, change its authorised capital or liquidate the Bank.”

Then I ran across this…..

“Bank for International Settlements to allow banks to keep 1% of reserves in Bitcoin”

Maybe this was the “extraordinary” general meeting he was talking about that I assume the BIS had to hold in order to change its authorized capital to 1% Bitcoin?

While “Guy” definitely hypes up his opinions on his YouTube channel, I’ve found him to usually be pretty factual overall, best I can tell.

This is you trying to fit a narrative. You are trying to fish something out of a link I provided that’s no there. “Guy” actually said a meeting on all 63 members “only happens in a time of crisis.” No. Meetings happen all the time. This was not an Extraordinary Meeting. The annual meeting happens roughly at the same time EVERY YEAR. Take the L and we can move on.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

This is you trying to fit a narrative. You are trying to fish something out of a link I provided that’s no there. “Guy” actually said a meeting on all 63 members “only happens in a time of crisis.” No. Meetings happen all the time. This was not an Extraordinary Meeting. The annual meeting happens roughly at the same time EVERY YEAR. Take the L and we can move on.

It’s obvious the BIS has an annual meeting, I’m asking the question, did the BIS have to have another “extraordinary “ meeting (their definition), to change the banks balance sheet to 1% Bitcoin that he may have been referring to?

I don’t know the answer to that.

Sounds like old Guy was hyping it all calling whatever meeting he was referring to “a time of crises”…surprise.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

"There are challenges to it." This is the kind of bs misdirection that drives me off the wall. There aren't "challenges" to the claim - it was proven to be utter bullshxx. You were given a copy of the actual letter as proof, but you just label that a "challenge?" That's just another bad step in the direction of the "what is truth anyway?" movement plaguing our world.

Wheat, when you engage and argue back honestly against arguments against crypto you provide a service because of your knowledge in the field. And intellectually honest argument can lead to learning on both sides. But throwing up links to crypto propaganda sites undermines whatever credibility you have earned.

I've noticed that for some reason people who love to rail against "mainstream media" are also most apt to fall for youtube propaganda peppered with gigantic red flags, like massive financial conflicts of interest for the speaker, fake quotes and stories (that sound fake and are easily checked for accuracy from the get-go), and a complete absence of balance of information. Mainstream media has errors, reporters tend to lean liberal (that's inevitable in a profession that lures in people who find enough appeal in getting the truth out there to overcome the inevitable low pay, low prestige and long work hours), but unlike Youtube lectures and social media, mainstream media also has accountability and works for some type of balance of info (even if it leans one way or the other). If the NYT's ever attributed such an easily debunked quote to Jefferson it would be pilloried by the rest of media, forced to apologize and publicly retract such bs. But that youtube video will be consumed as is by it's gullible audience around the world, with no accountability for accuracy whatsoever.

tldr vers; Providing links to one-sided cryptocurrency propaganda videos/articles riddled with easily spotted blatant falsehoods isn't helping the your or Bitcoin's credibility.

Giving it some thought, I can’t figure out a way to respond to this without getting off topic and into areas we can’t get into here.

Moving on….