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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    FWIW, that article was written 4 years ago by a startup company that seems to now focus on a Bitcoin casino.

    I'd be curious what the current state of those blockchain projects, because in my experience, I saw a ton of hype as companies rushed out to make announcements in this space 4-5 years ago, only to not have anything tangible really come from it. Often they realized the problems either couldn't be solved by public blockchain, or could be solved more efficiently via more traditional means. But hey, calling it "blockchain" gets more press/buzz, right?

    Anyway, maybe Visa and Mastercard have something disruptive that's come out of it, but I'm fairly skeptical of anything announced four years ago.
    Yes, I’m shocked that Long Island Brand Beverages (an iced tea and lemonade maker) never brought forth a project after they changed their name to Long Blockchain Corp.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Who instructed financial institutions to charge you this and other fees (~ 15 years ago)? Your US Government (financial institution regulators).
    Really? Could you provide a source for this?

    I'm wondering if you're referring to a change in 2010 that requires banks to reject reject transactions if an account lacks sufficient funds, unless customers opt-in to overdraft coverage.
    Rejected transactions typically generate an NSF fee, but I'd been unaware that regulators mandated that it be assessed. I thought it was the bank's call. My understanding is that regulation in this area has guided the circumstances under which they can charge and the disclosures required about fees. But perhaps I stand to learn something here. Thanks

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    FWIW, that article was written 4 years ago by a startup company that seems to now focus on a Bitcoin casino.

    I'd be curious what the current state of those blockchain projects, because in my experience, I saw a ton of hype as companies rushed out to make announcements in this space 4-5 years ago, only to not have anything tangible really come from it. Often they realized the problems either couldn't be solved by public blockchain, or could be solved more efficiently via more traditional means. But hey, calling it "blockchain" gets more press/buzz, right?

    Anyway, maybe Visa and Mastercard have something disruptive that's come out of it, but I'm fairly skeptical of anything announced four years ago.
    “ JPMorgan Finds New Use for Blockchain in Trading and Lending”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ral-settlement

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Really? Could you provide a source for this?

    I'm wondering if you're referring to a change in 2010 that requires banks to reject reject transactions if an account lacks sufficient funds, unless customers opt-in to overdraft coverage.
    Rejected transactions typically generate an NSF fee, but I'd been unaware that regulators mandated that it be assessed. I thought it was the bank's call. My understanding is that regulation in this area has guided the circumstances under which they can charge and the disclosures required about fees. But perhaps I stand to learn something here. Thanks
    During the early part of The Great Recession (2007-2009), financial institution regulators strongly recommended (during onsite examinations and public speaking engagements) that financial institutions substantially increase fee income (such as NSF fees).

    Why? Because substantially lower interest rates (the Fed Funds rate being reduced to basically 0%) meant financial institutions would make substantially less in loan and investment income. The regulators primary concern was not you (banking customers), it was their insurance fund. The regulators wanted to limit financial institution failures which resulted in insurance claims and the (very appropriate!) perception of regulatory incompetence.

  5. #685
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont

    fascinating BusinessWeek article

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...hain-community

    complex story, but well worth reading (not sure if the link will work). Here's the headline: "Index Finance was one of the great hopes of decentralized finance, the blockchain-based movement challenging Wall Street's gatekeepers.

    With one swift set of transactions, an 18 year old math prodigy liquidated $16 million of its assets and opened a new legal frontier."

  6. #686
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...hain-community

    complex story, but well worth reading (not sure if the link will work). Here's the headline: "Index Finance was one of the great hopes of decentralized finance, the blockchain-based movement challenging Wall Street's gatekeepers.

    With one swift set of transactions, an 18 year old math prodigy liquidated $16 million of its assets and opened a new legal frontier."
    Fascinating story! thanks.

    The WaPost did a story on a Crypto skeptic, Molly White (probably paywalled; sorry).

    To White and her fellow critics, crypto company founders and the venture capitalists backing them are presiding over a massive, unregulated attempt to rid regular people of their money by exaggerating the potential of crypto technology.

    “In the world of cryptocurrency, many things are not what they seem,” said Ben McKenzie, a TV actor and former star in “The O.C.” who began writing about cryptocurrency during the pandemic and has become another one of the industry’s best-known critics. “Molly shines a light through darkness and presents it for the world to see.”

    White and her fellow skeptics say the traditional media has mishandled the story, treating bitcoin as an exciting innovation while underplaying the idea it could be a giant pyramid scheme. Crypto-focused publications tend to have ties to the industry, while financial news organizations treat it like an asset class. “The crypto industry has benefited from the siloing of journalism,” McKenzie said. “You have to step back much broader and get outside the industry to get some perspective on what might be going on inside it.”


    Her blog: https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

    -jk

  7. #687
    I was about to post that WaPo article. She's doing good work ... that should have been done long ago by MANY others, including finance journalists and professional organizations.

    That said I disagree somewhat to characterize it as a pyramid scheme, in the classic sense. Closer to a Ponzi, but still not textbook.

    Pump and dump? IMO yes, among the "lesser" coins. Greater fool theory at work? IMO, yes, at all levels.

    That said I don't think Bitcoin will ever go to zero so long as it has value for criminal activity like ransomware payments, money laundering, and so forth.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    That said I don't think Bitcoin will ever go to zero so long as it has value for criminal activity like ransomware payments, money laundering, and so forth.
    Strongly agree! Importing drugs is easier than exporting dollars. Diamonds and Bitcoins are the easiest way to export dollars.

  9. #689
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Against my better judgement, I’m going to chime back in because I see there is a big fundamental lack of understanding of what Bitcoin is by some posters here.

    I’m going to try and avoid offering my opinions from this point forward, just provide links to information to help everyone make their own best decision on digital assets.

    Any more obvious off topic trolling not checked by moderators and I’m out.


    From this article….

    “For millions of people around the world, bitcoin is their first chance to practice self-sovereignty over their own money. Their money is under their control and they don't have to worry about anyone stealing it. Bitcoin is helping them preserve the human right to private property.”
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  10. #690
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Against my better judgement, I’m going to chime back in because I see there is a big fundamental lack of understanding of what Bitcoin is by some posters here.

    I’m going to try and avoid offering my opinions from this point forward, just provide links to information to help everyone make their own best decision on digital assets.

    Any more obvious off topic trolling not checked by moderators and I’m out.


    From this article….

    “For millions of people around the world, bitcoin is their first chance to practice self-sovereignty over their own money. Their money is under their control and they don't have to worry about anyone stealing it. Bitcoin is helping them preserve the human right to private property.”
    From the "about" section of their site:

    "We are passionate about Bitcoin"

    "Bitcoin Magazine staff and writers are often paid in cryptocurrencies, and as Bitcoin enthusiasts, many hold varying amounts of bitcoin and other currencies."

    Color me skeptical.

    -jk

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Against my better judgement, I’m going to chime back in because I see there is a big fundamental lack of understanding of what Bitcoin is by some posters here.

    I’m going to try and avoid offering my opinions from this point forward, just provide links to information to help everyone make their own best decision on digital assets.
    Wheat, you’re not posting fundamental facts. You’re posting links to, and quotes from, highly biased sources who frequently display “a big fundamental lack of understanding of” basic financial and economic facts. Many of your highly biased sources don’t even understand the basic functions and duties of the Federal Reserve and US Treasury.

  12. #692
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    From the "about" section of their site:

    "We are passionate about Bitcoin"

    "Bitcoin Magazine staff and writers are often paid in cryptocurrencies, and as Bitcoin enthusiasts, many hold varying amounts of bitcoin and other currencies."

    Color me skeptical.

    -jk
    Well, it is from “Bitcoin Magazine.”

    As a libertarian, I understand the appeal. But for other than criminals, Bitcoin is not a practical currency. If it was, it would already be adopted or at least there would be a huge movement towards it in the developed world. Investing institutions setting up vehicles to invest in Bitcoin does not make it a currency, it just makes it (more likely) a sign of an asset bubble headed for a burst.

    Again, I can make a case for a Bitcoin as a speculative investment. The case for a real currency beyond the libertarian urge for a free-standing, independent, relatively finite-quantity utopia just doesn’t seem realistic to me. And as much as I may not like it, “independence” also equates to “not being backed by anything real” like the Dollar, the Euro, or the Pound Sterling are.

    But I am not an economist or investing guru, someone can surely correct me on this if wrong.

  13. #693
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    From the "about" section of their site:

    "We are passionate about Bitcoin"

    "Bitcoin Magazine staff and writers are often paid in cryptocurrencies, and as Bitcoin enthusiasts, many hold varying amounts of bitcoin and other currencies."

    Color me skeptical.

    -jk
    Skepticism is fine. Actually healthy.

    The article was written by a pro BTC site. But does that negate the point?

    Do you not see where owning Bitcoin makes it possible to have “property rights” to a digital asset for millions of unbanked people around the world?
    Last edited by Wheat/"/"/"; 05-29-2022 at 11:00 PM.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  14. #694
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Well, it is from “Bitcoin Magazine.”

    As a libertarian, I understand the appeal. But for other than criminals, Bitcoin is not a practical currency. If it was, it would already be adopted or at least there would be a huge movement towards it in the developed world. Investing institutions setting up vehicles to invest in Bitcoin does not make it a currency, it just makes it (more likely) a sign of an asset bubble headed for a burst.

    Again, I can make a case for a Bitcoin as a speculative investment. The case for a real currency beyond the libertarian urge for a free-standing, independent, relatively finite-quantity utopia just doesn’t seem realistic to me. And as much as I may not like it, “independence” also equates to “not being backed by anything real” like the Dollar, the Euro, or the Pound Sterling are.

    But I am not an economist or investing guru, someone can surely correct me on this if wrong.
    BTC is only about 13 years old, a little hard to understand, and disrupting an entrenched monetary system. Give it time.

    And sure it can be used as currency, among other things. If, you are in a part of the world that needs it to be a currency.
    The Lightning Network makes that possible at scale. The value placed in BTC can easily be traded at the speed of a text. Now.

    It’s much easier than you think. Set yourself up a BTC Lightning wallet on your phone and I’ll send you $10 of BTC and you can send me back 5$ to prove the point. What’s to lose?
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  15. #695
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    OPK

    Go to your phone App Store and search Muun Lightning wallet. Download one to your phone. Free. Takes 30 seconds. Paste your receive BTC QR code here on this board, and I’ll send you the $10 BTC.

    JK
    I’ll make you the same offer.
    Last edited by Wheat/"/"/"; 05-29-2022 at 11:29 PM.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  16. #696
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    BTC is only about 13 years old, a little hard to understand, and disrupting an entrenched monetary system. Give it time.

    And sure it can be used as currency, among other things. If, you are in a part of the world that needs it to be a currency.
    The Lightning Network makes that possible at scale. The value placed in BTC can easily be traded at the speed of a text. Now.

    It’s much easier than you think. Set yourself up a BTC Lightning wallet on your phone and I’ll send you $10 of BTC and you can send me back 5$ to prove the point. What’s to lose?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    OPK

    Go to your phone App Store and search Muun Lightning wallet. Download one to your phone. Free. Takes 30 seconds. Paste your receive BTC QR code here on this board, and I’ll send you the $10 BTC.

    JK
    I’ll make you the same offer.
    I appreciate the offer(s). I’ll take a $10 BTC discount on my fishing charter when I get to the keys instead, if that works for you. (What’s usually biting in early April?)

    My comment about currency goes to the issue of general acceptance. I would agree that if any of the world’s largest retailers* started taking BTC, for example, my views might change. Any idea why they have refused to do so? Or are they taking BTC and I’m just unaware (always possible)?

    The top ten in order: Amazon, Walmart, Alibaba, CVS, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Walgreens, Lowe’s, Inditex. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurend...h=5ffd892359e3

    ETA: it looks like Home Depot is now taking BTC: https://www.gobankingrates.com/money...ccept-bitcoin/ — although it converts them to USD immediately at the point of sale. So, partial credit but a start.
    Last edited by OldPhiKap; 05-30-2022 at 09:53 AM.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    OPK

    Go to your phone App Store and search Muun Lightning wallet. Download one to your phone. Free. Takes 30 seconds. Paste your receive BTC QR code here on this board, and I’ll send you the $10 BTC.

    JK
    I’ll make you the same offer.
    We have talked about this. The question is not how but why. There are already ways to do this for free like Cash App, Veno, PayPal, Zelle, that only require an e-mail address. You can gift shares of thousands of stocks for free through brokerages. You might bring up the example of international transfers. Sure the initial BTC to BTC through Lightning might have a very low fee...definitely lower than say Western Union...but the receiver will be hit by the regular Bitcoin fees when they use an ATM or exchange cash out. Those fees (as of today) are way higher than Western Union so they are worse off.

    The questions that Bitcoin and really any crypto have to address if they want to be more than a speculative assets is:
    1) "What problem does it solve?"
    2) "Does it do that better than existing solutions?"
    3) "Does it do it cheaper?"
    4) "Will people use it?"

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I appreciate the offer(s). I’ll take a $10 BTC discount on my fishing charter when I get to the keys instead, if that works for you. (What’s usually biting in early April?)

    My comment about currency goes to the issue of general acceptance. I would agree that if any of the world’s largest retailers* started taking BTC, for example, my views might change. Any idea why they have refused to do so? Or are they taking BTC and I’m just unaware (always possible)?

    The top ten in order: Amazon, Walmart, Alibaba, CVS, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Walgreens, Lowe’s, Inditex. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurend...h=5ffd892359e3

    ETA: it looks like Home Depot is now taking BTC: https://www.gobankingrates.com/money...ccept-bitcoin/ — although it converts them to USD immediately at the point of sale. So, partial credit but a start.
    Valve, who run the biggest PC game marketplace - Steam, was an earlier adopter for Bitcoin payments. It lasted six months because of price volatility, high transaction fees and what for it....an excessive amount of fraudulent purchases. It was 50% than were outright fraud. By their very nature there is going to be a significant overlap of a Steam user and a Bitcoin user. If it can't work there how do we expect grandma and granddad to use it?
    Last edited by Kdogg; 05-30-2022 at 10:37 AM.

  18. #698
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I appreciate the offer(s). I’ll take a $10 BTC discount on my fishing charter when I get to the keys instead, if that works for you. (What’s usually biting in early April?)

    My comment about currency goes to the issue of general acceptance. I would agree that if any of the world’s largest retailers* started taking BTC, for example, my views might change. Any idea why they have refused to do so? Or are they taking BTC and I’m just unaware (always possible)?

    The top ten in order: Amazon, Walmart, Alibaba, CVS, Home Depot, Costco, Target, Walgreens, Lowe’s, Inditex. Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurend...h=5ffd892359e3

    ETA: it looks like Home Depot is now taking BTC: https://www.gobankingrates.com/money...ccept-bitcoin/ — although it converts them to USD immediately at the point of sale. So, partial credit but a start.
    April starts tarpon season. I’m in SW Fla, not the Keys.

    Retailers haven’t refused to accept BTC, they are just waiting on regulatory clarity for taxes and accounting. They want to move forward.

    Major retailers are in the process of setting it all up now to accept BTC and other crypto. It’s still so early in the game.

    A couple of links to back that statement up…

    https://finbold.com/restaurant-softw...-65-countries/

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabam...h=284f173a52fc

    BTW, BTC is backed up by the largest decentralized computer network in the world. 100’s of millions of dollars in mining computer equipment and energy expenses secure the asset.

    It’s not accurate to say BTC is backed by nothing.
    Last edited by Wheat/"/"/"; 05-30-2022 at 10:41 AM.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  19. #699
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boca Grande Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    We have talked about this. The question is not how but why. There are already ways to do this for free like Cash App, Veno, PayPal, Zelle, that only require an e-mail address. You can gift shares of thousands of stocks for free through brokerages. You might bring up the example of international transfers. Sure the initial BTC to BTC through Lightning might have a very low fee...definitely lower than say Western Union...but the receiver will be hit by the regular Bitcoin fees when they use an ATM or exchange cash out. Those fees (as of today) are way higher than Western Union so they are worse off.

    The questions that Bitcoin and really any crypto have to address if they want to be more than a speculative assets is:
    1) "What problem does it solve?"
    2) "Does it do that better than existing solutions?"
    3) "Does it do it cheaper?"
    4) "Will people use it?"



    Valve, who run the biggest PC game marketplace - Steam, was an earlier adopter for Bitcoin payments. It lasted six months because of price volatility, high transaction fees and what for it...an excessive amount of fraudulent purchases. It was 50% than were outright fraud. By their very nature there is going to be a significant overlap of a Steam user and a Bitcoin user. If it can't work there how do we expect grandma and granddad to use it?
    Those centralized “free” apps like Venmo are not free. They can stop payments, block payments and take control of your money by simple choice, for whatever reason, or by political decree, for example.

    I want control over my own money, not give that control over to some company or a government. BTC/Lightning Network allows that.

    The centralized “free” apps also gather your digital spending footprint to use for all kinds of purposes, good and bad. You have no privacy, and ultimately no control of your own money with those apps.

    There is fraud everywhere in finance. It will all be worked out over time.
    Wheat/"/"/"
    "An angry man catches no fish"-Zen proverb.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    There is fraud everywhere in finance. It will all be worked out over time.
    In the history of man it hasn't been worked out. If anything we've made it easier for some twit halfway around the world to steal digital assets, bank assets, heck even property deeds. In the past thieves would have to rob stagecoaches and banks. Now some guy can sit on his couch and do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Those centralized “free” apps like Venmo are not free. They can stop payments, block payments and take control of your money by simple choice, for whatever reason, or by political decree, for example.

    I want control over my own money, not give that control over to some company or a government. BTC/Lightning Network allows that.

    The centralized “free” apps also gather your digital spending footprint to use for all kinds of purposes, good and bad. You have no privacy, and ultimately no control of your own money with those apps.
    Then Lightning isn't your solution. It is the hottest of hot wallets. There are serious counter party risk there. You can have a fraudulent channel closing and lose the BTC in the channel. Since everything is off chain, these aren't Bitcoin Core nodes. You have no idea who is controlling the node or network of nodes and routing transactions. It's worse than Venmo because at least in that case you know you are dealing with Venmo and not some rando in god knows where.

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