The Walking Dead

[fuse]

Still begs the question of why they would risk their lives and the lives of their captive friends just to keep Carol and Beth. Makes no sense to me.

-Jason

Expecting rational thought in the trying times post zombie apocalypse? ;-)

Rick wanted to kill them all (another hindsight 20/20 call like Terminus?) and was talked out of it.

Escaped cop can point out Beth is a "traitor" after they saved her and drum up a frenzy for "revenge" which Dawn will have no choice but to go along with.

Fun to speculate :-)

[mattman91]

Who dies tonight? Beth? Carol? Both? Neither?

[moonpie23]

i'm going with beth....

[moonpie23]

i'm going with beth....

dang, i hate being right....


i'm liking rick more and more...

[bjornolf]

Heartbroken they killed off Beth. I'm kind of unsure what Beth was trying to accomplish. Unless she caught Dawn in the jugular, which she got nowhere near with the scissors, she had to know she was dead, and even if she managed it, she was probably sacrificing a good chunk of her group in the ensuing fight.

[moonpie23]

very true...i thought it was a clunky ending...

[bjornolf]

I also wonder what's going to happen to Darryl. He clearly thought of Beth as sort of this last light of innocence in his world. How is he going to react? Are we going to see "Dark Darryl" like we saw Dark Rick?

[JasonEvans]

I am quite disappointed that the show killed off a "major character" without more explanation or even having it make sense. Beth approaches Dawn and says, "I get it now" -- what did she understand? I am not at all clear on that. Was Beth sacrificing herself so Dawn would get killed and Noah could be freed? Stabbing Dawn with the scissors was pretty futile unless you know it is going to lead to more violence (gunshots). So, maybe what happened is exactly what Beth wanted. Dawn had largely been kind to Beth lately but I was never really clear if Dawn was a part of the problem at Grady or a potential solution. Maybe Beth was saying that Dawn was the root of the evil in the place and that Dawn had to go. I dunno, and that feels unsatisfying considering we lost a character we had known for such a long time.

That said, I am glad the show did not have a massive shoot-out among the Grady Police and our heroes. As I had stated, I thought that kind of result made no sense and I am glad both sides seemed to have calmer heads. Dawn's insistence that her side would get to keep Noah was not handled well by Rick, though I am not sure how much he cared about Noah to put up a fight. I suppose the question at that point was, which side is willing to die/risk lives to keep Noah. I don't think Rick was ready to do that which may be why Noah started to go with Dawn.

What did folks think of the post-show scenes with Morgan at the school and church? I still think those were scenes from clearly in the future -- I suspect Morgan is a good 3-6 months behind Rick and company -- but the key thing is that Morgan will eventually catch up to Rick and re-join the cast. Finding the map with Rick's name on it is a big deal to Morgan, though it will lead him toward Washington, which is not where Rick is... at least not yet. I won't be even a little surprised if Rick's gang decides to head toward Washington anyway, if only because they know how wretched life is in the Atlanta suburbs. I suspect the second half of this season will be them deciding to leave Georgia in their past and head North (though, with no power, those winters are gonna suck -- I'd head to Florida).

-Jason "on Talking Dead they kept on saying people were crying about Beth's death... really!?!? Not me" Evans

[FerryFor50]

I am quite disappointed that the show killed off a "major character" without more explanation or even having it make sense. Beth approaches Dawn and says, "I get it now" -- what did she understand? I am not at all clear on that. Was Beth sacrificing herself so Dawn would get killed and Noah could be freed? Stabbing Dawn with the scissors was pretty futile unless you know it is going to lead to more violence (gunshots). So, maybe what happened is exactly what Beth wanted. Dawn had largely been kind to Beth lately but I was never really clear if Dawn was a part of the problem at Grady or a potential solution. Maybe Beth was saying that Dawn was the root of the evil in the place and that Dawn had to go. I dunno, and that feels unsatisfying considering we lost a character we had known for such a long time.

That said, I am glad the show did not have a massive shoot-out among the Grady Police and our heroes. As I had stated, I thought that kind of result made no sense and I am glad both sides seemed to have calmer heads. Dawn's insistence that her side would get to keep Noah was not handled well by Rick, though I am not sure how much he cared about Noah to put up a fight. I suppose the question at that point was, which side is willing to die/risk lives to keep Noah. I don't think Rick was ready to do that which may be why Noah started to go with Dawn.

What did folks think of the post-show scenes with Morgan at the school and church? I still think those were scenes from clearly in the future -- I suspect Morgan is a good 3-6 months behind Rick and company -- but the key thing is that Morgan will eventually catch up to Rick and re-join the cast. Finding the map with Rick's name on it is a big deal to Morgan, though it will lead him toward Washington, which is not where Rick is... at least not yet. I won't be even a little surprised if Rick's gang decides to head toward Washington anyway, if only because they know how wretched life is in the Atlanta suburbs. I suspect the second half of this season will be them deciding to leave Georgia in their past and head North (though, with no power, those winters are gonna suck -- I'd head to Florida).

-Jason "on Talking Dead they kept on saying people were crying about Beth's death... really!?!? Not me" Evans

Earlier in the show, Beth mentioned that Grady Hospital was all about people using other people. Dawn tried to refute that, but once she demanded Noah in addition to the other hostages because she no longer had a ward, it reinforced what Beth thought. Perhaps she "understood" what it took to help end that cycle, which was using Dawn and sacrificing herself to help Noah. It did seem that more and more, Beth was done with how the world had turned out. She wasn't cut out for it and she knew it.

I was more surprised with *how* it went down moreso than with who died. As others mentioned, very clunky.

Beth was one of the last remnants of what was "good" about Rick's group. That's why I think it affected everyone emotionally - from Rick's group to fans. That mantle has been passed on to Father Gabriel. Wonder how they'll end up corrupting him...

As for Morgan, I'm seriously wondering if he ends up becoming the next "villain" in the show. He was pretty off his rocker last we saw him, and he didn't exactly seem to be playing with a full deck in the church after offering up a Goo Goo Cluster to the altar and then laughing semi-maniacally. Maybe he thinks he's on a mission from God? Maybe he thinks Rick is the devil? Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[A-Tex Devil]

Beth's death was obvious to me from the moment Michonne told Maggie she was alive. That's just how this show rolls.

While all the cops in the hospital seemed to be bad in some way, I still don't know if the lead cop was a better or worse person than the group that was trying to overthrow her. From the fight it seemed to be "better" as the other guy seemed to be a huge a-hole. But then the other cops stood down pretty quickly and the wards didn't leave (other than Noah, it appears). The show did a poor job of establishing the dynamic among the cops in the hospital, but I think *it* believes it did a really good job.

In any event, it will be interesting to see where it goes from here. I'm curious how much time has elapsed before Morgan gets to the church, etc. The dead clearly escaped the church after the group left (or some other group came in an wiped them out).

[Blue in the Face]

But then the other cops stood down pretty quickly and the wards didn't leave (other than Noah, it appears).

I didn't really understand that. They're sheltered, fed, and safe (from zombies at least), which isn't a bad gig in that world. But they're treated like crap, to the point of beatings and sexual assault. That's not such a good gig in any world. They're also down 3 cops in a pretty short period of time, which might be a good thing if those 3 were jerks, but isn't too good in terms of ongoing safety from the outside world. Jumping into the unknown surely isn't easy, but they probably came to know Beth at least enough to know she's a decent person, and that gives her people some sign of approval. And they know Noah, and he's been with Rick's group and liked them enough to stick with them. Seemed strange that everyone else would stay put.

[wilson]

Beth was one of the last remnants of what was "good" about Rick's group. That's why I think it affected everyone emotionally - from Rick's group to fans. That mantle has been passed on to Father Gabriel. Wonder how they'll end up corrupting him...

I agree with your point about Beth, but very much not about Father Gabriel. I believe there is something sinister about him, and I tend to agree with the person or people who scratched "You'll burn for this" on the exterior of the church in response to his cowardly barricading of himself in the building while people needed help. It was also very stupid of him to go back to the school, and downright depraved of him to lead all of those walkers back to the church. That could have easily resulted in four deaths, including a baby.
I don't think Gabriel needs any corrupting; he's already there.

[fuse]

While her tears on Talking Dead lead me to think otherwise, I have to wonder just a bit if this outcome is something that was fostered by Emily Kinney's interest in focusing on her music career.

[JohnGalt]

I agree with your point about Beth, but very much not about Father Gabriel. I believe there is something sinister about him, and I tend to agree with the person or people who scratched "You'll burn for this" on the exterior of the church in response to his cowardly barricading of himself in the building while people needed help. It was also very stupid of him to go back to the school, and downright depraved of him to lead all of those walkers back to the church. That could have easily resulted in four deaths, including a baby.
I don't think Gabriel needs any corrupting; he's already there.

I think that you're giving Gabriel too much credit. I think he's still suffering Hershel's original 'denial' problem where he can't accept that this is the new reality and that the walkers are no longer people (i.e. the religious conflict of killing another person). I have no doubt he's made a few mistakes that he regrets, but I find him to be too much of a simpleton to knowingly lead walkers back to the church or engage in any other 'sinister' acts such as that. IMO, he's nothing more than a scared man still running from the new-world. The 'New Beth' is a better guess I'd say.

That being said, ending up alone in your own church just after the annual canned food drive seems a little too coincidental...

[mattman91]

While her tears on Talking Dead lead me to think otherwise, I have to wonder just a bit if this outcome is something that was fostered by Emily Kinney's interest in focusing on her music career.

I listened to some of her music...she should stick to acting. Or modeling.

[wilson]

I think that you're giving Gabriel too much credit. I think he's still suffering Hershel's original 'denial' problem where he can't accept that this is the new reality and that the walkers are no longer people (i.e. the religious conflict of killing another person). I have no doubt he's made a few mistakes that he regrets, but I find him to be too much of a simpleton to knowingly lead walkers back to the church or engage in any other 'sinister' acts such as that. IMO, he's nothing more than a scared man still running from the new-world. The 'New Beth' is a better guess I'd say.

That being said, ending up alone in your own church just after the annual canned food drive seems a little too coincidental...

Your points are good, but I've bolded the part that I really think illustrates the nefarious self-interest that underlies his benign exterior. I don't necessarily think he is maliciously targeting anyone, but to me, the degree to which he's turned his back on others renders him corrupt. His role as a pastor was to guide and protect his parishioners, and he spectacularly failed (slash maybe actively refused) to do so during the initial apocalyptic event.
Now that he has joined the series' core crew, he continues to show himself a coward, and to neglect his responsibilities as a man of the cloth. To me, one of the show's most compelling subtleties is the walkers' spiritual state. The way I see it, the zombies are tortured souls, existing in a state of limbo. The most instructive term to me is one that hasn't to my recollection been used on TWD, but which has been very commonly used in other zombie films/series/whatever: "undead." The zombies aren't dead, in that their physical bodies continue to function in whatever weird capacity, but they're not alive either, since they don't possess proper consciousness or full humanity. This means that, in my eyes, killing a zombie is a form of release for those tortured souls. You can see this in the many pacts that series characters have made to fully eliminate each other in case they should die and/or become infected...not only do they want to protect others from their would-be flesh eating, but they're also pledging to spare each other from the indefinite tortured state of zombiehood.
Father Gabriel himself demonstrates that he knows or at least believes the above on numerous occasions, as with his pained response upon finding a former parishioner's castoff Bible or encountering a zombie wearing a cross necklace. Nevertheless, he continues to refuse to take up arms alongside the group that has now saved his life at least twice (once when they first found him screaming atop the rock in the forest, and again when he was cornered by walkers outside the church). He is now not only failing to protect his cohort from flesh-eating monsters, but he's also refusing to grant those monsters' souls release from limbo. Whether he's scared or whatever, he is spectacularly and repeatedly falling down on his job of protecting and serving others, and for that, he is an entirely unsympathetic character to me.

[bjornolf]

...To me, one of the show's most compelling subtleties is the walkers' spiritual state. The way I see it, the zombies are tortured souls, existing in a state of limbo. The most instructive term to me is one that hasn't to my recollection been used on TWD, but which has been very commonly used in other zombie films/series/whatever: "undead." The zombies aren't dead, in that their physical bodies continue to function in whatever weird capacity, but they're not alive either, since they don't possess proper consciousness or full humanity. This means that, in my eyes, killing a zombie is a form of release for those tortured souls. You can see this in the many pacts that series characters have made to fully eliminate each other in case they should die and/or become infected...not only do they want to protect others from their would-be flesh eating, but they're also pledging to spare each other from the indefinite tortured state of zombiehood...

Z Nation is no TWD, but in that show, they call killing zombies "giving mercy". Just thought that was an interesting twist on what you said.

[Blue in the Face]

The spinoff will take place in LA.

http://tvline.com/2014/12/16/the-wal...-spoilers-l-a/

[mattman91]

With the way this show is going, I think I'm more excited about Better Call Saul.

[moonpie23]

who's hungry?