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  1. #1

    Hate the artist, hate the art?

    My late father had a thing about Jane Fonda -- after he saw that photo of her on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft weapon, he absolutely refused to watch a movie featuring Fonda -- even non-controversial earlier fare like Cat Ballou (which I know he liked at one time).

    When I was in college, I shared an apartment with a doctoral candidate in religion at Duke. He could not stand any music by Richard Wagner ... his reasoning (to my mind) was a bit convoluted. Wagner was a favorite of Adolph Hitler and although Wagner died before Hitler rose to power, many of his family supported the Nazis -- his widow was a violent anti-Semite and his daughter-in-law was very close to Hitler. There's more -- many argued (including the Nazis themselves) that Wagner's music represented the themes of nationalism and racial purity that Hitler championed.

    I was thinking about this today as I see the reviews for the latest Tom Cruise movie. It looks fairly interesting (although the plot appears to be nothing more than a sci-fi remake of Groundhog Day), but my problem is that it starred Tom Cruise.

    Now, I'm not about to lump Cruise with Fonda and her traitorous behavior or with Wagner, who was an inspiration to the most despicable people of the 20th Century, but there's something about the guy ... whether it's is his flamboyant embrace of Scientology or his problems with his short stature (I don't mind that he's just 5-7, but the lengths he goes to in his movies to hide that ... check out this link: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ggggenji/7-p...aller-tha-9mo9 make him even more ludicrous)

    I understand that's my problem ... I can't stand Cruise and I won't go to a movie that he stars in. And I even understand my Dad a bit in that I'm not interested in revisiting any old movies by Cruise ... even movies I once liked, such as Risky Business.

    I don't expect anybody else to share by prejudice against Cruise. But I wonder -- are there any other movie stars that rub you the wrong way? Maybe because of off-screen behavior -- Mel Gibson lost a lot of fans (including me) with his boorish behavior. I loved Lindsey Lohan in Parent Trap and Freaky Friday ... now, I'm not sure if I'd be interested in seeing her perform. Orson Scott Card's public homophobia turned off many who might have enjoyed Ender's Game.

    With actors, I think it's a matter of suspension of disbelief -- I can't watch Tom Cruise without thinking that the little twerp is Tom Cruise and not Ethan Hunt or Count von Stauffenberg.

    Is it just me ... or are there actresses and actors; writers or composers that you won't even give a chance to?

  2. #2
    Issues unrelated to their performance don't really bear on whether or not I will consume an artist's work. I suppose if I found someone really offensive, I might avoid patronizing their work in a way that has some financial meaning to them, like seeing a performer in a really small venue, but other than that, I don't really care. I don't view the performance in the context of their personal actions, and I don't consider my patronage as providing material support to someone I find distasteful.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    My late father had a thing about Jane Fonda -- after he saw that photo of her on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft weapon, he absolutely refused to watch a movie featuring Fonda -- even non-controversial earlier fare like Cat Ballou (which I know he liked at one time).
    OF, I am completely with your father as regards Hanoi Jane...and Sean Penn...and (now) Mel Gibson, etc. And, I will no longer listen to Pink Floyd as long as Waters and Mason espouse their Anti-semitic rants disguised as the BDS movement (and add Elvis Costello to that mob). I for one cannot divorce the artist from the "art."

    (Mods, sorry if I am venturing into PPB territory...but that question naturally leads into it...)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    I don't view the performance in the context of their personal actions...
    i suppose i respect your belief there, but personally i feel like it is impossible to separate the art from it's artist. if the art is worth a damn, it's creator has more certainly left their indelible impression on it. while it's possible to appreciate a work without knowing about the artist, knowing the creator's history can deepen your understanding.

  5. #5
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    I love Woody Allen movies. I abhor parts of his personal life.

    I disagree that you cannot separate art from the artist. "Art" to me speaks to larger truths and meanings than any individual. Bob Dylan's music and Cat Steven's music is universal no matter what religion they practice at any given time. Many musicians have had deplorable personal demons that do not take away from what they wrote or how it speaks to me.

    Hell, I even like Lewis Black even though he was a Tar Heel. If I can do THAT, I can overlook anything.


    Having said that, if artists decide to inject themselves into politics, I support the right of others to boycott. Art is a choice, after all.

  6. #6
    Well, no matter how wacky Tom Cruise is, "Born on the Fourth of July" was his star turn.
    Of course, I know this isn't a Tom Cruise thread.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Well, no matter how wacky Tom Cruise is, "Born on the Fourth of July" was his star turn.
    Of course, I know this isn't a Tom Cruise thread.
    I am not a Tom Cruise fan, but Les Grosmann is an incredible character.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I am not a Tom Cruise fan, but Les Grosmann is an incredible character.
    Really? 'cause Les Grossman was my biggest problem with an otherwise pretty great movie. Tropic Thunder is not a subtle movie, but charming non the less, and well acted. Les Grossman came off as heavy-handed, and so fake the point it was annoying. All I could think, Tom Cruise trying to be funny in a fat suit. And I don't particularly hate Tom Cruise either, I like most of his acting.

  9. #9
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    Thread Title

    Shouldn't this thread be titled "Hate the artist, not the art"? You have it the wrong way, I think.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    Shouldn't this thread be titled "Hate the artist, not the art"? You have it the wrong way, I think.
    Totally agree, you can hate my art but might think I'm a really nice guy.
    As for the first post, I'm on deck completely with one guy you mentioned, my baseball bat swinging in anger, and am coming around to the plate with the other, ready to welcome him home.
    Mel Gibson? Loved his movies, from Mad Max on. But there is nothing on this planet that will set me on fire more than bigotry, so I can't even watch one of his old flicks now much less anything new he is either in or directs/produces. Screw you buddy.
    Tom Cruise, he lost me for a long time. After his couch dance, I was done. But I did take the time to watch Oblivion, and enjoyed it. Edge of Tomorrow won't have me sitting on the edge of my movie theater seat, but I'll check it out once it rolls around on DVD.
    There are two distinct factors between the two. One is now a loathsome human being screaming against part of humanity, the other guy is just weird. I can live with weird.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    Really? 'cause Les Grossman was my biggest problem with an otherwise pretty great movie. Tropic Thunder is not a subtle movie, but charming non the less, and well acted. Les Grossman came off as heavy-handed, and so fake the point it was annoying. All I could think, Tom Cruise trying to be funny in a fat suit. And I don't particularly hate Tom Cruise either, I like most of his acting.
    Tom Cruise time machine:

    http://youtu.be/zXRd8JOyYlM

    Probably NSFW but was a cable tv commercial

  12. #12
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    One unanticipated genius element of the movies in The Naked Gun series is that O.J. Simpson's character endures a lot of physical pain. I feel I can watch Nordberg guilt-free.

  13. #13
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    I tend to avoid movies prominently featuring (or directed by) a person for whom I have a strong distaste. That being said, it takes someone coming out as a truly lousy person for me to get there. It can't just be disliking their politics (that would rule out the vast majority of movies for someone of my political bent...or bent politics, depending on your POV), or extreme wackiness like Cruise and his L Ron Hubbard Couch Jumping antics. But actors/directors/athletes who have done despicable acts lose my money, and, since buying a ticket in some tiny way financially supports them, I don't go.

    Of course, it's easier if I don't care much for the product or if I've got a bunch of other options. For example, I absolutely believe Big Ben sexually assaulted the girl in the bathroom so I will never pull for the Steelers if he's playing. Of course, I have always been ambivalent toward the Steelers (don't love them, don't hate them). Same for Woody Allen, who I think is a pedophile...but then I never much cared for Woody Allen movies anyway, so I'm not sacrificing much. But X-Men, Days of Future Past...well, I'm avoiding buying a ticket or, eventually, the DVD, until the charges against Singer are resolved. And I'd really like to see the movie.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I am not a Tom Cruise fan, but Les Grosmann is an incredible character.
    Score! I'd forgotten that one.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    I tend to avoid movies prominently featuring (or directed by) a person for whom I have a strong distaste. That being said, it takes someone coming out as a truly lousy person for me to get there. It can't just be disliking their politics (that would rule out the vast majority of movies for someone of my political bent...or bent politics, depending on your POV), or extreme wackiness like Cruise and his L Ron Hubbard Couch Jumping antics. But actors/directors/athletes who have done despicable acts lose my money, and, since buying a ticket in some tiny way financially supports them, I don't go.

    Of course, it's easier if I don't care much for the product or if I've got a bunch of other options. For example, I absolutely believe Big Ben sexually assaulted the girl in the bathroom so I will never pull for the Steelers if he's playing. Of course, I have always been ambivalent toward the Steelers (don't love them, don't hate them). Same for Woody Allen, who I think is a pedophile...but then I never much cared for Woody Allen movies anyway, so I'm not sacrificing much. But X-Men, Days of Future Past...well, I'm avoiding buying a ticket or, eventually, the DVD, until the charges against Singer are resolved. And I'd really like to see the movie.
    This is always an interesting dilemma, and I had a lot of debates about Ender's Game. I ultimately have not seen the movie, but that was more a lack of time and spousal interest rather than a political statement. But I too would hesitate before seeing a Mel Gibson movie again. But with a project as a large as a movie, you're virtually guaranteed to be indirectly paying someone who has a view you oppose.

    And while I find a lot of the views of Scientology (and actions of that organization) repugnant, I think it's virtually impossible to find a Hollywood movie that does not have a member of that church involved. Yeah, Cruise has gotten wacky, but has he directly done anything homophobic, or himself lobbied against equal rights?

    But I hear you on Roethlisberger. I feel similarly about Kobe Bryant. Coach K's close relationship to him is a source of great embarrassment, and I think a stain on his reputation. If Kobe were ever to become associated with Duke basketball, I would cease to be a duke fan. But sports aren't art.

  16. #16
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    OF, I always had a problem with John Wayne--the other end of the political spectrum from Jane Fonda, but I couldn't stand his politics and therefore didn't want to see his movies. I eventually got over that; I'm an old movie buff and I have a number of dvd's of his work, and i enjoy it. Not sure if my change of heart is indicative of some sort of maturing on my part (unlikely), or if it's because he's been dead for so long.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke74 View Post
    OF, I am completely with your father as regards Hanoi Jane...and Sean Penn...and (now) Mel Gibson, etc. And, I will no longer listen to Pink Floyd as long as Waters and Mason espouse their Anti-semitic rants disguised as the BDS movement (and add Elvis Costello to that mob). I for one cannot divorce the artist from the "art."

    (Mods, sorry if I am venturing into PPB territory...but that question naturally leads into it...)
    With regard to "Hanoi Jane", does the fact that she is very repentant about it affect your view at all?

    From an interview in 1988:

    I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. [...] I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.
    I bring this up, not to challenge the validity of an objection to her, but rather to bring up another facet in this kind of conversation that people forget: people, even artists, are human beings whose views evolve and change, and everyone is capable of heartless mistakes. Should atoning for them not factor into the equation?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    I bring this up, not to challenge the validity of an objection to her, but rather to bring up another facet in this kind of conversation that people forget: people, even artists, are human beings whose views evolve and change, and everyone is capable of heartless mistakes. Should atoning for them not factor into the equation?
    Atonement should be a factor, but it is not definitive. The Vietnam era was a complicated time, and I wouldn't personally hold someone's views against them if they were well meaning, and examined over the years.

    However, actions have consequences. I would not begrudge a Vietnam vet having strong feelings against Jane Fonda, apology or no apology.

    As for someone like Woody Allen -- I'll do my best to avoid anything related to him until he is dead. I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about the allegations against him.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    ... there is nothing on this planet that will set me on fire more than bigotry, ...
    The Dutch.

    For me its the narcissism that turns me off. My examples are Adam Sandler, Ben Stiller, and Jim Carey. They expect big money for just being them, regardless of the caca they try to shovel. Of course, they each tried to conquer serious roles, and their audiences were not supportive. Maybe the audience is just getting what it deserves - tired re-run clichés that stopped being funny to many of us long ago.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Atonement should be a factor, but it is not definitive. The Vietnam era was a complicated time, and I wouldn't personally hold someone's views against them if they were well meaning, and examined over the years.

    However, actions have consequences. I would not begrudge a Vietnam vet having strong feelings against Jane Fonda, apology or no apology.

    As for someone like Woody Allen -- I'll do my best to avoid anything related to him until he is dead. I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about the allegations against him.
    I find some aspects of Woody Allen uncomfortable too, but I'm not going to fault anyone for viewing the allegations of child abuse with skepticism. Discussion beyond that is probably not really appropriate though.

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