Another college ranking (Forbes); Duke #15

[roywhite]

Forbes top college list

#2 Pomona College (?)
#7 US Military Academy
#8 Harvard
#29 UVa
#38 UNC--Chapel Hill

To those who are college shopping or involved with Duke's administration, how important are these lists?

[94duke]

Forbes top college list

#2 Pomona College (?)
#7 US Military Academy
#8 Harvard
#29 UVa
#38 UNC--Chapel Hill

To those who are college shopping or involved with Duke's administration, how important are these lists?

MD @ #73 above Ga Tech @ #83???????

[Bluedog]

Forbes top college list

#2 Pomona College (?)
#7 US Military Academy
#8 Harvard
#29 UVa
#38 UNC--Chapel Hill

To those who are college shopping or involved with Duke's administration, how important are these lists?

I would say people pay attention to rankings generally, but don't pay particular attention to the specific rank Forbes gives an institution. Although it certainly doesn't hurt to be recognized and may give a general sense of the "tier" of an institution. But any methodology that uses RateMyProfessors.com as a major factor in its rankings system (15% of the total ranking) is highly suspect. Forbes this year did actually tweak the methodology to get a list closer to US News, which I would say people put the most weight on (because it basically confirms people's beliefs with regard to prestige). They got rid of the Who's Who list and instead used more meaningful lists, I believe, which is an improvement. US News is more of an input-driven ranking (test scores of incoming students, professors' salaries, etc.), while Forbes has some more output factors (post-graduate success, student happiness, scholarships, debt). So, it gives a bit of a different perspective (on top of combining LACs and universities in the same list). I'm glad Duke is relatively high and moved up from the last ranking, but don't think it's a very precise or meaningful metric.

[luvdahops]

I would say people pay attention to rankings generally, but don't pay particular attention to the specific rank Forbes gives an institution. Although it certainly doesn't hurt to be recognized and may give a general sense of the "tier" of an institution. But any methodology that uses RateMyProfessors.com as a major factor in its rankings system (15% of the total ranking) is highly suspect. Forbes this year did actually tweak the methodology to get a list closer to US News, which I would say people put the most weight on (because it basically confirms people's beliefs with regard to prestige). They got rid of the Who's Who list and instead used more meaningful lists, I believe, which is an improvement. US News is more of an input-driven ranking (test scores of incoming students, professors' salaries, etc.), while Forbes has some more output factors (post-graduate success, student happiness, scholarships, debt). So, it gives a bit of a different perspective (on top of combining LACs and universities in the same list). I'm glad Duke is relatively high and moved up from the last ranking, but don't think it's a very precise or meaningful metric.

Methodology aside, as someone who has seen this from a variety of angles (prospective student, interviewer for Duke, recruiter for my employers), I find this list more informative than USN & WR because it mixes in liberal arts schools and the service academies, among others, with national research universities. I could certainly quibble with some of the individual rankings, but Duke at #15 in this field seems about right.

[hurleyfor3]

If you take out the schools that aren't eligible for the USNWR "national university" rankings (Pomona, Swarthmore, USMA, Williams and Amherst), Duke is 10th. Which is right where it usually ends up in the USNWR list. And one ahead of Dartmouth, just like always too.

Alternate interpretation: When K left West Point to come to Duke, it was a step down.

[Duvall]

Methodology aside, as someone who has seen this from a variety of angles (prospective student, interviewer for Duke, recruiter for my employers), I find this list more informative than USN & WR because it mixes in liberal arts schools and the service academies, among others, with national research universities. I could certainly quibble with some of the individual rankings, but Duke at #15 in this field seems about right.

Is it? I mean, if you were choosing between schools, you wouldn't make the decision between Duke and Williams College based on their relative positions in this list. What's the point in smushing together schools with different missions and structures to create one list?

[devildeac]

MD @ #73 above Ga Tech @ #83???????

Glad to see they are already reaping the rewards of moving to the Big 10/11/12/etc.

[luvdahops]

Is it? I mean, if you were choosing between schools, you wouldn't make the decision between Duke and Williams College based on their relative positions in this list. What's the point in smushing together schools with different missions and structures to create one list?

Well, for one thing, from a corporate recruiting standpoint, these schools are all very much in competition with one another when it comes to placing their graduates. Duke places a lot of grads on Wall Street and with major consulting firms, for example; so do schools like Williams, Amherst and Bowdoin, among other liberal arts colleges.

For another, the distinctions in terms of missions and structure do not necessarily come into play for many prospective students. There are plenty of kids who look at (and may apply to) both Duke and Williams or Amherst, and the relative prestige - real or perceived - undoubtedly is a factor in their ultimate decision on where to go.

[JohnGalt]

USMA - #7
USNA - #28
USAFA - #31
USCGA - #94
USMMA - #165

Ouch! Still no love for Kings Point!

WRT the Academies...I wonder how these rankings would differ if they were scaled to take into account each's funding.

[Duvall]

Well, for one thing, from a corporate recruiting standpoint, these schools are all very much in competition with one another when it comes to placing their graduates. Duke places a lot of grads on Wall Street and with major consulting firms, for example; so do schools like Williams, Amherst and Bowdoin, among other liberal arts colleges.

For another, the distinctions in terms of missions and structure do not necessarily come into play for many prospective students. There are plenty of kids who look at (and may apply to) both Duke and Williams or Amherst, and the relative prestige - real or perceived - undoubtedly is a factor in their ultimate decision on where to go.

Okay, but that's a terrible idea on both sides. How can there be any difference between school #8 and school #12 that outweighs the differences between individual candidates?

[Jarhead]

Although Duke rates lower than it has in the past, my take is that it is in some pretty good company all the way down to #37, Vanderbilt. Oh, my. the annual cost in the list is... well, mind boggling. I'd guess the average is over $50,000 for the top 100. In my day at Duke, it was less than $1000, but I got a free ride from the GI Bill.

[Mike Corey]

Pomona?!?

Yeah. At growin' marijuana.

[Indoor66]

Although Duke rates lower than it has in the past, my take is that it is in some pretty good company all the way down to #37, Vanderbilt. Oh, my. the annual cost in the list is... well, mind boggling. I'd guess the average is over $50,000 for the top 100. In my day at Duke, it was less than $1000, but I got a free ride from the GI Bill.

In my day it was $1,500 - I must be a lot younger...

[matt1]

Although Duke rates lower than it has in the past, my take is that it is in some pretty good company all the way down to #37, Vanderbilt. Oh, my. the annual cost in the list is... well, mind boggling. I'd guess the average is over $50,000 for the top 100. In my day at Duke, it was less than $1000, but I got a free ride from the GI Bill.

I have been to many information sessions at different schools over the last year plus, and I can say that they are all (or at least all of the ones I am looking at) between $55,000 and $60,000. I really think that there are about 50 schools around the country with near-equal educations. It just comes down to where you want to be. I would say that, from an academic standpoint, it is difficult to separate the Ivies, Duke, Stanford, Vandy, Notre Dame, Washington in St. Louis, Swarthmore, Haverford, Rice, Emory, Williams, Babson, Amherst, etc. However, within that list, there are some schools that I loved and some that I hated (along with many I never looked at).

[Jarhead]

In my day it was $1,500 - I must be a lot younger...

Indoor66, if that 66 at the end is an indicator of your class at Duke then I am somewhat older than you, but don't spread that around.

[Jarhead]

Pomona?!?

Yeah. At growin' marijuana.

I have been to many information sessions at different schools over the last year plus, and I can say that they are all (or at least all of the ones I am looking at) between $55,000 and $60,000. I really think that there are about 50 schools around the country with near-equal educations. It just comes down to where you want to be. I would say that, from an academic standpoint, it is difficult to separate the Ivies, Duke, Stanford, Vandy, Notre Dame, Washington in St. Louis, Swarthmore, Haverford, Rice, Emory, Williams, Babson, Amherst, etc. However, within that list, there are some schools that I loved and some that I hated (along with many I never looked at).

Matt1, when I said that Duke was in some pretty good company, I didn't mean all schools, and I deliberately limited the group to the top 37. Carolina was next, and like Mike Corey, I was puzzled that Pomona College was #2. A few parts of my extended family have some connection with Carolina, and if I ever publicly admitted that UNC was pretty good company, I'd never hear the end of it from them. On the other hand, Forbes states that a principle part of the rankings is return on investment. That partly explains the odd mixture of institutions in the list, but I am not convinced that it is a fair measure for the rankings of such a disparate group.

[YmoBeThere]

The world must hold much higher esteem for West Pointers than I do. But then, I knew many of them from their days shortly after graduation at Officer Basic Course.

[Bluedog]

Although Duke rates lower than it has in the past, my take is that it is in some pretty good company all the way down to #37, Vanderbilt. Oh, my. the annual cost in the list is... well, mind boggling. I'd guess the average is over $50,000 for the top 100. In my day at Duke, it was less than $1000, but I got a free ride from the GI Bill.

While the sticker price may be mind boggling, a very large percentage do not pay that price. Top universities offer very good financial aid, obviously with varying abilities. Harvard, for instance, has a general guideline of a family needing to pay 10% of their annual income towards their child's tuition up to an annual salary of $180,000. That is, if your parents make $160,000/year, an amount putting them in the top 10% of household income in the U.S. (i.e. relatively wealthy by any reasonable standard), then Harvard expects you to pay $16,000/yr towards your child's schooling. Obviously, Harvard is particularly generous since it is the richest academic institution in the world. Duke isn't as generous, but still is a great option for middle-class familes despite the on the face absurd sticker price (as I learned firsthand). For families making less than $60,000, Duke is virtually free save a few thousand in loans. The price quoted thus isn't necessarily a good barometer towards what a family actually has to pay (unless they are very wealthy) and top notch private institutions sometimes end up being cheaper than in-state publics.

[luvdahops]

Okay, but that's a terrible idea on both sides. How can there be any difference between school #8 and school #12 that outweighs the differences between individual candidates?

I doubt if many employers make a habit of using school rankings of any kind for selecting between individual candidates. Where it comes into play, at least with the type of firms I am most familiar with, is in selecting which schools to recruit from and, in some cases, how many "slots" may be allotted to candidates from a given school for each analyst or new consultant class. But there are also plenty of other factors that weigh into those decisions, including a firm's history with grads from a particular school, the extent of advocacy and involvement by alums of that school, especially senior management, and overall class size, among others.

I stand by my principal point, though, which is that Duke often competes with top liberal arts schools for both attracting students and placing them upon graduation. Are you disputing that?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

While the sticker price may be mind boggling, a very large percentage do not pay that price. Top universities offer very good financial aid, obviously with varying abilities. Harvard, for instance, has a general guideline of a family needing to pay 10% of their annual income towards their child's tuition up to an annual salary of $180,000. That is, if your parents make $160,000/year, an amount putting them in the top 10% of household income in the U.S. (i.e. relatively wealthy by any reasonable standard), then Harvard expects you to pay $16,000/yr towards your child's schooling. Obviously, Harvard is particularly generous since it is the richest academic institution in the world. Duke isn't as generous, but still is a great option for middle-class familes despite the on the face absurd sticker price (as I learned firsthand). For families making less than $60,000, Duke is virtually free save a few thousand in loans. The price quoted thus isn't necessarily a good barometer towards what a family actually has to pay (unless they are very wealthy) and top notch private institutions sometimes end up being cheaper than in-state publics.

Interesting. So based on your description of the Harvard formula (which I don't dispute), if you make $160k a year, and are thus contributing $16k a year, you only have to contribute under 30% of the cost of the education, assuming $55-60k a year of costs. But if you make $200k a year, you have to contribute 100%? Not that I weep for those making $200k a year, but that is a really lousy place to be - you're better off asking for a small pay cut for a few years to qualify for a lot more aid.

From what I understand, it is these generous aid packages that has helped Tommy Amaker and other coaches at Harvard improve their recruiting. Historically, Ivy League schools were at a recruiting disadvantage since they don't offer athletic scholarships, but if an athlete's family qualifies for a large grant based on their low income level, the difference in cost to go to Harvard vs. getting a full athletic scholarship at another school is really very little.