NL Cy Young and MVP

[Channing]

as a Braves homer I want to include Hudson in the Cy Young discussion and Chipper in the MVP discussion. I know Cabrerra is having a fantastic season, but I think Chipper's defense has been superb, and the MVP generally comes from a winning team (although MC is having a season like A-Rod when he won it with the Rangers).

As for Cy Young, Hopefully Hudson can put another 4 or 5 wins on his resume. He will need to have significantly more than Young and Peavy imo since their ERA is so much better than his.

What do others think?

[hc5duke]

Forgot one category:

My vote for Rookie of the Year goes to Hunter Pence, though his injury will probably hurt (no pun intended) his chances. Troy Tulowitzki just may edge him since Pence will probably miss a month or more, especially with the Astros out of contention (@#*&%!!!)

[EarlJam]

I don't know about the other categories, but it seems to me Chipper is a solid MVP candidate. What is the Braves' record this year without him in the line-up? How many big hits has he had? Without Chipper, the Braves would be much further out in the race right now. He gets my vote hands down.

-EarlJam

[Indoor66]

For bust of the year I nominate Dontrelle Willis of the Marlins.

[tombrady]

For bust of the year I nominate Dontrelle Willis of the Marlins.

He was pretty average last year as well.

[Channing]

as for ROY, my homer vote goes to Yunel, but that is looking like a 4th place finisher unless he is magnificent down the stretch.

I was under the assumption that Brewers 3B Ryan Braun was a lock - here are his numbers:

72 games, 294 ABs, .350 BA, 23 HR, 10 SB, 60 RBI

Those are some pretty stout numbers.

[Moose]

Lemme post some numbers here, as a blind scientific study -

Player A
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
468 80 158 21 93 44 93 .338 .399 .583 .982


Player B
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
435 74 146 29 86 58 97 .336 .415 .618 1.034


Player C
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
367 73 124 19 67 61 57 .338 .428 .594 1.022


Player D
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
282 66 79 25 57 120 47 .280 .495 .589 1.084


Player E
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
441 80 126 37 89 56 95 .286 .379 .612 .992


Out of all these players, who do you think deserves the MVP?

Acutally, let's do a guessing game. Who are these players? (don't go to ESPN and look it up, that's cheating) I'll post it a little later if anyone guesses...

Personally, I'd say Player A and Player B have the best shot, but it would depend on the rest of the season to distinguish between them.

- Moose

[wilson]

I have been touting Chipper as a potential MVP for about a month now, but I think we need to win the division in order for that to happen (a Wild Card berth might be enough to do it). He's third in the league in batting average right now, and has been absolutely scorching for all of August (sort of like this city in general). This makes many Atlanta sports fans' opinions outright hilarious. Go to the AJC Braves blogs and you'll still read things like "Chipper stinks. He's old. He always gets hurt. We should trade him." But then again, these are the same people who think that moves like trading Adam LaRoche (the worst Brave of all time) insert Schuerholz into the "worst GM ever" conversation, and who think Bobby Cox is a hack.

As for Hudson, I don't think there's quite enough on his resume to warrant a Cy Young this year. He should easily finish in the top 4 or so, but the bullpen having blown about 4 wins for him this season is really going to hurt. On the other hand, Peavy's been sort of cold lately and Hudson, like Chipper, has been really hot. I'd say a Cy Young for him is unlikely, but still possible. Again, the Braves' team performance will go a long way toward deciding his fate.

On a side note, I went to the game last night and experienced one of my favorite Braves moments ever. Bobby Cox got the heave-ho (for the second straight night) in about the third inning, in the process getting regaled with chants of "Bobby! Bobby!" As he exited the field, he got a standing ovation. Almost as great as the Sunday afternoon game I went to one time where he got tossed for actually kicking dirt on the umpire, followed by a Braves comeback win capped with an eighth-inning homer.

As for this weekend's DBR Braves night out, I'm still a definite maybe. I'm definitely going either Friday or Saturday, but I'm not sure which (EarlJam, the lady is indeed coming to town this weekend). I have to figure out which night fits into the week's schedule more easily (I'm in the midst of moving as we speak...sweet). Given the choice, I would of course choose Saturday, which is Elvis night at Turner Field.

[EarlJam]

As for this weekend's DBR Braves night out, I'm still a definite maybe. I'm definitely going either Friday or Saturday, but I'm not sure which (EarlJam, the lady is indeed coming to town this weekend). I have to figure out which night fits into the week's schedule more easily (I'm in the midst of moving as we speak...sweet). Given the choice, I would of course choose Saturday, which is Elvis night at Turner Field.

Well, here's to hoping you make it out Saturday. You, the lady, Shamm, (hopefully Lavabe) and I will have a blast. ELVIS NIGHT? That's great. Do you know if they are giving away anything? You KNOW there will be some Elvis impersonators in the stands - maybe one singing the National Anthem.

-EarlJam

[Lavabe]

Wilson: Good luck with the visitor!

Umm... the Cardinals are moving up on everyone in the Central.
Throaty: Having been around a few St. Louis pennant runs, I can only imagine what the town is going through.

To get a Cy Young, I agree with Steven that Hudson needs to go on a tear. I'd argue that he needs a couple of shutouts, a no-hitter, or something spectacular. The New York/Philly media won't give him the time of day. He needs time on Sportscenter. More importantly, the Braves have to win the division for either Hudson or Chipper to be considered.

Personally, I don't care if Hudson gets the award. I'd just like to see a couple of complete games from him, so that the bullpen can rest.

I don't believe I am thinking this, but in my mind Yunel has been so impressive that Renturia might be up on the trading block. Maybe it was Yunel's two-base walk? His hitting? His defense? His mind for the game? He is an incredible addition to the team.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[NovaScotian]

For bust of the year I nominate Dontrelle Willis of the Marlins.

shouldn't barry zito be bust of the year?

i think chipper is a good candidate for mvp, but the braves will need to make the playoffs for him to be seriously considered.

[wilson]

You KNOW there will be some Elvis impersonators in the stands - maybe one singing the National Anthem.

-EarlJam

Not to mention the pregame performance by the Flying Elvi (seriously):

http://www.flyingelvi.com/home.html

[Lavabe]

Not to mention the pregame performance by the Flying Elvi (seriously):

http://www.flyingelvi.com/home.html

COMPLETE WITH NICOLAS CAGE?!?!?!!?!?

Utah Chapter???????

Cheers,
Lavabe

[EarlJam]

shouldn't barry zito be bust of the year?

i think chipper is a good candidate for mvp, but the braves will need to make the playoffs for him to be seriously considered.

Busts of the year: Erin Andrews?

[tbyers11]

Lemme post some numbers here, as a blind scientific study -

Player A
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
468 80 158 21 93 44 93 .338 .399 .583 .982


Player B
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
435 74 146 29 86 58 97 .336 .415 .618 1.034


Player C
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
367 73 124 19 67 61 57 .338 .428 .594 1.022


Player D
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
282 66 79 25 57 120 47 .280 .495 .589 1.084


Player E
AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
441 80 126 37 89 56 95 .286 .379 .612 .992

Player C is Chipper. Player D is Barry Bonds. Player E is Prince Fielder. Guesses: Are A Matt Holliday and B Miguel Cabrera? As a Braves fan, I'd love for Chipper to win, but don't think he has a shot unless the Braves win the East with some timely hits from Chipper. Same goes for Fielder and the Brewers. I don't think that Bonds wins this year (crappy team, bad press, really only plays about 2/3 of the time).

I don't think Holliday or Cabrera have a strong shot because they play for the Rockies and Marlins. Marlins are bad. Holliday could have a shot if Colorado wins the West.

I think that Reyes is definitely in the discussion and Rollins or Utley if the Phillies get hot.

[asbcheeks]

I think that Reyes is definitely in the discussion

He might be, but David Wright is really the stronger candidate from the NL frontrunners IMO:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
118 444 79 137 27 1 22 76 232 65 95 25 2 .398 .523 .309

[Moose]

Good call with your guesses.

Player A - Matt Holiday
Player B - Miguel Cabrerra
Player C - Chipper Jones
Player D - Barry Bonds
Player E - Prince Fielder

My point was there are a bunch of players who have similar or better stats than Chipper at this point - but that he's definitely in the discussion. I didn't include Utley because he's been hurt for about a month and I didn't include Rollins because he probably won't win because he's either 2nd or 3rd best on his own team in many categories.

Wright should be included in this group, even though his OPS is lower than the ones I posted. If the Braves catch the Mets, then Chipper may still have a shot - but it's a long one from what I see. It'll be interesting to see how having Teixeira hitting behind him affects his output. Andruw just wasn't cutting it as protection this year.

- Moose

[oso diablo]

non-homer, and one of strong belief that individual awards should go to the best individual contribution, not the best individual that happened to be on a playoff team. Playoffs are team awards; MVP & Cy are not. That said...

I started this post to assert that Hanley Ramirez has been the most valuable player in the NL this season, so far. That was based on VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) rankings. But after diving more into the numbers, i'd have to go with Miguel Cabrera. He dominates the field in WARP (an advanced stat measuring full contribution and takes position played into account; it stands for Wins Above Replacement Player).

After Cabrera, take your pick among those already mentioned, except for Prince Fielder, who got a ton of early pub but is fading and now doesn't measure up to the rest.

For CY, it will be hard to top Peavy. The pitcher to look out for is Brandon Webb.

Braun has ROY locked up.

[JasonEvans]

As a non-homer, and one of strong belief that individual awards should go to the best individual contribution, not the best individual that happened to be on a playoff team. Playoffs are team awards; MVP & Cy are not.

So, who is more valuable--

Player A who helps a dreadful team that would have won 55 games become somewhat respectable and win 75 games...

Or Player B who helps a decent team that would have won 80 games become a great team that wins 95 instead?

A created 20 extra wins but his team was still a non-factor. Player B helped his team to 15 extra wins and mad them into a favorite for the World Series.

Worth noting- it is harder to stand out and make a difference on a good team that is filled with other good players than it is on a team filled with bums .

-Jason "in my book, winning matters" Evans

[Olympic Fan]

Historically, the MVP voters have almost always favored the best player on a contending team over a somewhat better player on a non-contending team. And for many, many years, they went out of their way to reward the star of the pennant winning team.

I'm not saying that's right ... just that's the way it has been.

That's one reason that Ted Williams kept finishing second to Joe DiMaggio in all those MVP races ... it wasn't New York bias or anti-Williams sentiment. If either of those was the case, how do you explain the 1934 MVP vote:

Mickey Cochrane won the MVP for a season in which he batted .320 with two home runs and 76 RBIs. He had a solid .428 OBP, but a mediocre .412 slug -- and a mediocre .840 OPS

In the same season, Lou Gehring, a popular Yankee (maybe THE most popular Yankee) won the AL Triple Crown, batting .363 with 49 home runs and 165 RBIs. He had a .465 OBP and a .706 SLUG -- a Ruthian OPS of 1.171. He finished 5th in the MVP voting.

Cochrane was the inspirational catcher on a team that won 101 games and the pennant. Gehrig was the second-banana (that was Ruth's last season with the Yankees) on a team that won 94 games and finished second.

You can trace this pattern of voting throughout baseball history. The voters go out of their way to pick a player from the winning -- or at least a contending -- team. There are exceptions to the rule, but not that many.

PS I haven't checked the out, but it seems to me that since the establishment of the Cy Young Award in the mid-1950s, less pitchers have won MVP awards. The rules don't exclude them, but most voters seem to have decided that at least for starting pitchers, they should be content with the Cy Young and not be in the MVP picture. There does seem to be some sentiment (but no consensus) that relievers ought to be considered for the MVP and not the Cy Young.