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Thread: #22

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    For fear of revealing another website's premium information, I will direct you to this interview from The Devil's Den. (Caveat: I am a long-serving and unpaid moderator for this site.)

    I believe the interview with Jabari Parker's mother, should you have access to it, will reveal why any frustration at Jabari is misplaced over this particular issue.

  2. #62

    Honor

    Leave the jersey's retired, and let our amazing players forge a legacy that is entirely their own.

    2 brings to mind Derek Jeter; 3 Dale Earnhardt, and 4 Brett Favre. Given there are other great athletes with these numbers, the aforementioned athletes took these numbers, and made them their own in their own sport. Blue Devils already think of Jason Williams when 22 is thrown out there. I think a lot of people have enjoyed knowing that glory is sustained now and forever, knowing that sacred numbers such as 32, 33, and 4 will ALWAYS be held in high regard at Duke University.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    My good friend Devil84 has been pointing out the simple logistical problem we face as we begin to run out of numbers, especially the more desirable ones. So, toward that end, I would have no problem at all if Duke said the following:

    Because of the limits on numbers in basketball and the tremendous number of great players to have been at Duke, we face the very real possibility of running out of numbers some day. As it stands today, we are already severely limited. So, starting with the 2013-14 season we are instituting a new policy. From now on, a "retired" number is one that will remain out of circulation for 10 years**. After that, it will again be available for use by any current player who wants it. This in no way changes how we feel about the special, special players who have their jersey's hanging in the rafters. It is merely a concession we have to make to math.
    I would be more than fine with that. It would be an acknowledgement of the limits we are running up against and would be treating all past honorees, as well as all future players, the same.

    My problem with what we are discussing now is that it comes across as something special for Jabari Parker. We should not "change the rules" for one special recruit. No recruit is worth that.

    --Jason " ** - Personally, I would rather the time limit be 15 or 20 years, but the 10 year window allows Jabari to wear Jason's number, which was retired in 2002, IIRC" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  4. #64
    Tell JB he can have that number...his senior year.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    ...I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat...(Chris had awesome hair, FWIW, and I would certainly hope Jabari would remove it as carefully as possible using professional styling scissors, etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly View Post
    I do. That would sort of creep me out.
    Reilly, I do think you overlooked Cameron's qualifying statement. Laettner did indeed have, and still has, a fine head of hair. hahaha
    I still get a little giddy.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Macon, GA
    Things change... That's just the way it is...

    I would rather see someone wear Williams Jersey 10 years later than someone wearing Nolan and Kyles numbers as soon as they leave. And that's no disrespect to the kids wearing them right now.

  7. #67
    The retired numbers at Duke have been iron-clad. I'm thinking that Jay-Will offered this up first, rather than K inquiring to Jay-Will. Because otherwise, why now? I'm positive others in the past 20 years have asked about 33, 24, and 10, and evidently the answer's been no.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

    So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

    I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

    On the day Jay Williams number was retired, we (in effect) said to him, "you have been so special here that we never want to see anyone wear this jersey again. It will forever hang in the rafters to remind us of what you did while wearing it. We promise that no one will ever wear #22 again." So, what are we saying now? Are we saying that our word, our traditions, are meaningless... especially when compared to the desires of the right kind of recruit?

    I am disgusted. Not because I really care that much about numbers, but because I sense us treating this kid differently than others (and I hate what kind of message that sends about Duke). I am disgusted because I see us thumbing our nose at tradition (one that every other team in sports has, but we seem to be fine with breaking).

    To be clear, we are not arguing over "a number" we are arguing over the honor that was conferred upon these players and what that honor now means to us. Is the pledge, the commitment, we made when we honored Jay now null and void? I understand that he may not care, or he may not want to rock the boat, but we -- the fans and the custodians of Duke's traditions -- should care for him. And we should care enough to say NO!

    -Jason "I am tremendously bothered by Adam's comment that Jabari, who is yet to arrive at Duke, is somehow more special than other recruits... that is not the Duke/Coach K way and really opens a Pandora's Box of questions/problems" Evans
    I share many of your reservations. Just to clarify, that was Jay's response, not mine.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by vick View Post
    We aren't really that close to this point though, are we? I believe there are 37 legal jersey numbers, and Duke has retired 13 of them:

    00
    0 1 2 3 4 5
    10 11 12 13 14 15
    20 21 22 23 24 25
    30 31 32 33 34 35
    40 41 42 43 44 45
    50 51 52 53 54 55
    Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    With all due respect, Devil84, this view is so overused on the board. I get it, they're teenagers. Are they mature enough to be President of the USA? Probably not. But are they capable of reasonable thought and basic prioritizing? At least to the extent that their number is that likely to weigh on their decision on where to play top-flight college basketball? I mean, I just can't imagine these kids are that short-sighted. At all.

    Do these kids care about the school colors too? Breed of dog the mascot is?

    They're 17. Not 4.

    - Chillin

    PS - Sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes it just feels like we marginalize and overlook these young men's intelligence and rationality too frequently.
    You're right, Chillin...many young men are intelligent and rational. However, I was a team member in the 80's and saw what recruits favored then, and my youngest child (now a senior in college) and some of his friends were recruited by DI schools (but not revenue sports). I can safely say that some of the strangest things can play in the decision-making process. And there are even new issues since my son was recruited just 4 years ago, as Dolver makes a good point about branding. That is now emphasized in high school/college for all students, not just athletes.

    NOTE: It took a while to pull some data together, and in the interim, Jason Evans posted a much more succinct and eloquent statement of the problem and a good solution. However, it took a while to do the following research, so I'm gonna post it anyway.

    People around here were a bit miffed that Singler and Smith's numbers weren't retired, so what happens if they are? Remove two more numbers. There could be another player from this year's squad. And I'm sure there will be more in the future. What happens when we get don't have enough numbers left? Do we stop honoring players? Maybe that's a moot point. Like -jk says, one-and-dones may make jersey retirements a thing of the past...though Singler, Smith, and current possible NPOY player are awfully current.

    And how many numbers is "not enough" to field a team? Coach K uses a fairly short bench. UNC has 16 on their roster. Using ESPN's rosters, the average is about 14 (note that Duke shows 11, as Rodney Hood and Andre Dawkins are not on the roster there, but are shown on Duke's website). Duke's next coach after Coach K may want a deeper bench. I'd think we'd want to be able to have 13 scholarship players + 4 walkons (patterning after the schools with the largest rosters, noting that the largest rosters did not include possible redshirts).

    While I was perusing the rosters, I noted that there are currently 10 players wearing numbers in the 40s, and only 4 players wearing numbers in the 50s in the ACC. Those players: Todd Zafirovski (SR), Michael Ojo (FSU, FR), Grant O'Brien (WFU, FR), and Doug Neidrich (WFU, SO). Add in the new ACC teams and you add 4 more players wearing numbers in the 40s, and none in the 50s. Toss in the remaining top 10 teams (AP Poll), you add 6 numbers in the 40s and 6 in the 50s. Four of those players wearing numbers in the 50s are on Arizona's team, and have played a combined 64 total career minutes (averaging 1-2 minutes each game they play). Only Oregon's Tony Woods, wearing #50, plays significant minutes out of the 8 players wearing numbers in the 50s on the 24 teams I checked (<2% of the 337 players).The 40s aren't much better, accounting for 26 players, or 7%.

    Looking at this data, thinking that numbers in the 50s are just as good as any other number is like saying a flip phone is just as good as a smart phone. Think many college kids would feel honored being offered a free flip phone to come to campus?

    I respect the fact that we started a tradition of retiring numbers. But now that we have only 13 popular numbers left (including 00/0 as one number and 13), and 9 more that are worn by fewer than 10% of players, we're almost out of numbers. We can retire 5 more and then we are bascially out of numbers (or artificially limiting our team size).

    So, do we stop retiring jerseys to give players a choice of numbers? Do we keep retiring numbers and be one of the few schools that will assign unpopular numbers? Do we amend the tradition to allow for new traditions and practices, like branding in high school? And when do we do that? Now? In 5 years? In 2027, when the most currently retired jerseys have been retired for 20 years? Lots of questions.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?
    Because when they report a foul to the official scorer, they can't provide the number with 2 hands or less. Which is mind-boggling stupid.


    And I think Devil84 made a valid point, in that many of the desirable numbers are either retired or in use, so it severely limits the choices for new recruits. I doubt many guards and wings want to wear 54 or 42 or 51.

    We are almost at the point where, if the NCAA does not change the rule, we will have to start freeing up more of the retired jerseys.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?
    I believe it is all to do with the ref indicating to the scorers table which player committed the foul using the fingers on his/her hands. Doing a 6, might be misinterpreted as a 15, or 51.

    I think it's absurd.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    In this day and age, we could just call it "22 v2.0" and be done with it.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I believe it is all to do with the ref indicating to the scorers table which player committed the foul using the fingers on his/her hands. Doing a 6, might be misinterpreted as a 15, or 51.

    I think it's absurd.
    Of course it's absurd. You guys beat me to it, but the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five.

    The NBA refs seems to have no problem in signifying fouls or technicals fouls or whatever on guys with higher digit numbers. Rondo is #9, LeBron James is #6, Rasheed Wallace is #36, Rodman was #91, Kobe was #8, JJ is #7, etc. There are tons of them. All the ref does is look at the scorer and say "Thirty six over the back" and when doing so, with one hand he flashes three fingers, then takes those three fingers down and then flashes all five fingers on one hand and one finger on the other. What's the scorer going to think, the foul is on # 315 or #351? C'mon. He can also hear the number the ref is calling out, or at least see him mouthing it. Not rocket science here, and he can always ask for clarification if necessary, which will be very rare.

    The NBA refs and scorers handle the higher digits just fine. So why can't the college folks do the same? This is silly.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dolver View Post
    Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22
    Twitter handles can be changed pretty easily. He could even use the change as a way to interact with fans. After being traded to the Braves (where Hell will freeze over before somebody else wears 10) Justin Upton invited the fans to come up with a new handle for him, since @jus10up10 no longer works when he's wearing 8 in Atlanta.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Of course it's absurd. You guys beat me to it, but the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five.

    The NBA refs seems to have no problem in signifying fouls or technicals fouls or whatever on guys with higher digit numbers. Rondo is #9, LeBron James is #6, Rasheed Wallace is #36, Rodman was #91, Kobe was #8, JJ is #7, etc. There are tons of them. All the ref does is look at the scorer and say "Thirty six over the back" and when doing so, with one hand he flashes three fingers, then takes those three fingers down and then flashes all five fingers on one hand and one finger on the other. What's the scorer going to think, the foul is on # 315 or #351? C'mon. He can also hear the number the ref is calling out, or at least see him mouthing it. Not rocket science here, and he can always ask for clarification if necessary, which will be very rare.

    The NBA refs and scorers handle the higher digits just fine. So why can't the college folks do the same? This is silly.
    When you put it that way, quite silly indeed.

    - Chillin

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    ... the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five...
    Also could use fractions, Eddie Gaedel-style:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Someone mentioned to me that they are worried we are blaming Parker in this brouhaha. I don't speak for everyone, but let me say for myself that that could not be further from the truth. I don't think Parker is the bad guy here. Heck, the interview with his mother makes it clear that this was not his idea but appears to have come from either JWill and/or K. It is not even clear if Jabari would take #22 out of respect for what JWill did in that uniform.

    So, I want to be 100% clear that my issue is a) with Duke for potentially going back on longstanding traditions and commitments to our best former players and b) the appearance that Jabari is being treated differently than other prominent and less-touted recruits.

    -Jason "and with that, I'm done " Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  19. #79

    OK with me and Jason Williams

    I personally think we have too many retired numbers and have no problem unretiring any of them. I really don't see a great difference between those I put at the bottom of the retired jerseys and those at the top who are not retired.

    I would only retire the truly great never to be forgotten players and maybe those that did more than just basketball. Pat Tillman ASU football for example, Jackie Robinson in baseball.

    Regarding Jason Williams and JP. I don't know the context but lets suppose Jason sees JP play, sees his HS number, and tells Coach K, "Hey if it would help in the recruiting, he can wear 22." I have no problem with that.

    Lets suppose there was a top recruit whose father had been a great athlete with a famous number and he wanted to have his Dad's number to honor him, but Duke had retired the number. What should Coach K tell the recruit?

    SoCal

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!

    Changing tune

    So, I have been made aware that the most common definition of a retired number says it stays out of circulation "...unless the player so-honored permits it." I have also been made aware that other schools have permitted retired numbers to be worn. At UCLA, Walt Hazzard gave permission for Kevin Love to wear #42.

    The upshot of this new info, combined with the reports that JWill is the one who initiated the notion of Jabari wearing #22, gives me great pause. Heck, more than that it makes me change my stance on this whole thing. I had no idea of the above facts and, in light of them, this does not seem like Duke breaking longstanding traditions or being disrespectful. I feel awful for starting this whole mess...

    -Jason "mea-culpa... I need a break from myself" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

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