#22

[tommy]

Having your jersey hung in the rafters is an honor. The number retirement thing I don't get.

They're one and the same thing. Your number gets retired and because it's retired, it hangs forever in the rafters, never to be worn again.

I hate this idea.

If Williams' retired jersey can be worn again, even with his consent, then the whole concept of a number being retired is really obliterated. Might as well take em all down. Yet another manifestation of our coarsened, the present-is-all-that-matters, instant grat society.

[devil84]

We aren't really that close to this point though, are we? I believe there are 37 legal jersey numbers, and Duke has retired 13 of them:

00
0	1	2	3	4	5
10	11	12	13	14	15
20	21	22	23	24	25
30	31	32	33	34	35
40	41	42	43	44	45
50	51	52	53	54	55

Even at the rate under Coach K (about one per every three and a half years), it's something like 35 years until there is a real problem (assuming a maximum roster size of around 15). Although this probably presents an argument against the marginal cases people tend to bring up from time to time, I don't think we should be thinking about recycling numbers quite yet.

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

[blazindw]

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

Rodney Hood will wear #13 next year and is listed on the roster under that number, so consider that one off the board for next year's freshmen.

[ChillinDuke]

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

With all due respect, Devil84, this view is so overused on the board. I get it, they're teenagers. Are they mature enough to be President of the USA? Probably not. But are they capable of reasonable thought and basic prioritizing? At least to the extent that their number is that likely to weigh on their decision on where to play top-flight college basketball? I mean, I just can't imagine these kids are that short-sighted. At all.

Do these kids care about the school colors too? Breed of dog the mascot is?

They're 17. Not 4.

- Chillin

PS - Sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes it just feels like we marginalize and overlook these young men's intelligence and rationality too frequently.

[-jk]

I tend to think of the retired numbers as belonging to the players in perpetuity. So long as the player agrees to share, I'm ok with it.

Even if my brain will have a very hard time wrapping itself around another player with that number.

And given the one-and-done environment, I'm not really expecting to have a dilemma with a new player getting the same number re-retired. <sigh>

-jk

[airowe]

I tend to think of the retired numbers as belonging to the players in perpetuity. So long as the player agrees to share, I'm ok with it

-jk

Agreed. And Jay agrees to share.

Jabari will only be at Duke for a year. There isn't a chance of the jersey being re-retired. Consider this a loan.

Williams wouldn't have done this for just any old recruit. The fact that it's Jabari sold him on it.

[burnspbesq]

If Jabari wants to wear number 22, he can. In football, soccer, or baseball.

[Matches]

I really have mixed feelings about this. I don't want to be a slave to tradition and fully understand that at some point the supply of available numbers dwindles and becomes a problem. There's something that seems wrong about even approaching a former player and asking for his consent to do this, though.

Maybe if we just changed our policy and said ALL retired numbers are back in play (but would continue to hang in the rafters), I'd be able to get behind it a little more easily. Something about picking out one particular number bothers me though.

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, regardless of what Jason says, I don't like this. A retired number is a retired number, and there has never been a high schooler in HISTORY who is as good as one of our retired guys.

I understand Jason is a Chicago guy (sort of) and so is Jabari and so maybe there is a connection there, but...

[Cameron]

On the one hand, it does seem incredibly ridiculous to retire a number and then 11 years later bring it back out of retirement. It sort of makes the whole retirement ceremony seem like one big, pointless charade. The actual "retirement" obviously meant very little and the next time we are so lucky to have a retirement ceremony, it certainly won't feel all that "special" or unique an event.

On the other hand, I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat, as long as the player SI dubbed as "the best high school player since LeBron" is playing for the Blue Devils. (Chris had awesome hair, FWIW, and I would certainly hope Jabari would remove it as carefully as possible using professional styling scissors, etc.)

[JasonEvans]

Williams wouldn't have done this for just any old recruit. The fact that it's Jabari sold him on it.

That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

On the day Jay Williams number was retired, we (in effect) said to him, "you have been so special here that we never want to see anyone wear this jersey again. It will forever hang in the rafters to remind us of what you did while wearing it. We promise that no one will ever wear #22 again." So, what are we saying now? Are we saying that our word, our traditions, are meaningless... especially when compared to the desires of the right kind of recruit?

I am disgusted. Not because I really care that much about numbers, but because I sense us treating this kid differently than others (and I hate what kind of message that sends about Duke). I am disgusted because I see us thumbing our nose at tradition (one that every other team in sports has, but we seem to be fine with breaking).

To be clear, we are not arguing over "a number" we are arguing over the honor that was conferred upon these players and what that honor now means to us. Is the pledge, the commitment, we made when we honored Jay now null and void? I understand that he may not care, or he may not want to rock the boat, but we -- the fans and the custodians of Duke's traditions -- should care for him. And we should care enough to say NO!

-Jason "I am tremendously bothered by Adam's comment that Jabari, who is yet to arrive at Duke, is somehow more special than other recruits... that is not the Duke/Coach K way and really opens a Pandora's Box of questions/problems" Evans

[dolver]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

[SupaDave]

All this debate reminded me of this tweet...

Thread: Austin Rivers going with 0

Sorry if already posted but here are a couple of interesting tweets from Austin:

"I wanted to wear the family number 25, but it's retired at duke! So I went with 0, 1 is still a possibility but that all depends on Kyrie!"

Supa "Austin - the gift that keeps on giving" Dave

[JasonEvans]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

Well, he better hope he doesn't get drafted by the Celtics ("Easy" Ed McCauley), Cavs (Larry Nance), Mavs (Rolando Blackmon), Rockets (Clyde "The Glyde" Drexler), Lakers (Elgin Baylor), Knicks (Dave DeBusschere), or Trailblazers (Clyde Drexler... again).

Either that or he better hope those teams have the same diminished sense of honor that Duke does when it comes to their legends.

-Jason "color me shocked when I found out that Rolando Blackmon's jersey was retired. Dallas has also retired Brad Davis' #15... some pretty low standards there in Mav Country" Evans

[CharlestonDevil]

The only scenario where I would feel remotely positive about this possibility is if Jabari and Jason had some sort of special relationship. Perhaps that Jason was a role model or hero for Jabari growing up, maybe similar to a Quinn/Nolan relationship, and Jabari requested this in order to honor Jason's contributions to Duke Basketball.

In no way should this be allowed just because Jabari wants to continue wearing his high school number. I wouldn't care if it was the second coming of Lebron, Kobe, or anyone else.

** On another note, maybe this is another example of K's change in his stance on jersey numbers. It was said forever that he would not allow a player to wear #1 "Because Duke is #1". Yet he did it for Kyrie.

[mkirsh]

That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

Evans

I'm split on this. I don't feel that strongly that having another player wear #22 diminishes the honor for Jason Williams - his name and number is still one of the select few honored in the rafters for everyone to see when they walk into Cameron; having other people wear #22 doesn't take anything away from his legacy IMO. Actually kind of like re-issuing hallowed numbers like Syracuse football #44 to let the incoming player know they have a lot of tradition to uphold.

What does bother me is what you have above - differential treatment and star player mentality. Kyrie couldn't wear #11, Amile can't wear his HS #25, but Jabari can wear #22? Also the issue you raised in the original post is a great one - it now makes retired players the bad guys of having to say no. Can't imagine Christian Laettner every letting anyone else wear #32, but he will look like a jerk when he has to say no - not a great position to put your legends in. I think if we do this it has to be all the way and not special exemptions - "retired" no longer means out of circulation, but rather hanging in the rafters in an honored way (which potentially leads to "inflation" of the honor since actually retiring a number has real opportunity cost).

[Cameron]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

The crazy thing is, because of the reason you identify above, if Duke were to tell him that he could not have the number, I could actually see that being a deal breaker. Of course, that would never be the "official" reason for backing out of a verbal, but it would probably be the official reason, nonetheless. As great a kid as Jabari appears to be -- I mean, I don't actually know him enough to know what kind of a person he really is, and nobody else here does either -- these guys like Jabari that are once-a-decade type players are not just basketball stars, they are also businessmen from the School of LeBron. This stuff, such as jersey numbers and other branding opportunities, are important.

That said, I agree completely with JasonEvans. As I stated earlier in the thread, unretiring Jason's number makes a mockery of every jersey number that has ever been retired at Duke. If it happens, the whole tradition is over. What a joke.

[JasonEvans]

The only scenario where I would feel remotely positive about this possibility is if Jabari and Jason had some sort of special relationship. Perhaps that Jason was a role model or hero for Jabari growing up, maybe similar to a Quinn/Nolan relationship, and Jabari requested this in order to honor Jason's contributions to Duke Basketball.

In no way should this be allowed just because Jabari wants to continue wearing his high school number. I wouldn't care if it was the second coming of Lebron, Kobe, or anyone else.

Bingo -- I 100% would agree with this. If Jabari was doing this specifically because he wanted to honor Jay, that would be a whole different story. I am sure we would have heard during his recruitment about how Jabari looked up to Jay as the "player I want to be some day" or something like that. In that case, it would be OK with me (so long as Duke and Jay agreed as well). But that is clearly not the case here. We have not heard anything about Jay being one of Jabari's trusted confidants or Jabari having some special regard for Jay above dozens of other stellar college hoops players over the years.

-Jason "sigh..." Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We're knee deep in conference play, two games behind the leader, less than a week removed from one of our most disturbing losses in decades, missing one of our senior leaders for an indefinite amount of time due to injury, and a thread on jersey numbers gets 3 pages in less than 24 hours?

Seems to me we have actual problems to worry about.

As far as "on topic" - if Jay/son is okay with it, who are we to argue?

Now, let's go roast some Demon Deacons.

Go Duke

[Reilly]

... I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat...

I do. That would sort of creep me out.