Brent Musburger is a dirty old man*

[Reisen]

I think there's a difference between accepting that physical appearance is a factor in peoples' judgment (of course it is), and harping about it repeatedly on national TV. We are a product of evolution, but not beholden to it. We have empathy and intellect (also products of evolution), and should employ them. I'm not sure this incident is, on its own, really worthy of how much attention it's gotten. I didn't see the game, and only know about it from various people commenting on message boards and on facebook sentiments like "Wow, Musberger is kind of sleazy". But this is part of a larger pattern of objectifying women and reducing their worth to their physical beauty alone. Denying this attitude exists is as silly as denying that physical appearance influences peoples' judgment. This is where empathy and intellect should come to play.

I think this is fair, but here's my problem: I think so much of this pushback is because of Musberger's age. Heck, we have sports celebrities constantly doing genuinely pervy things (think Brett Favre and text messages, Joe Theisman) and a blatantly overt culture of female sexualization in sports (unnecessarily tiny bikinis in beach volleyball, honey shots at sports games, the types of women we hire as sideline reporters, halftime dancers, ringside girls in boxing and UFC, heck, the whole presence of cheerleaders in sports, and all the baggage that goes with it). This isn't even getting into "entertainment" sports like professional wrestling or lingerie football...

Yet Musberger makes what most people agree are fairly innocuous remarks (ie. he called her "beautiful" but didn't talk about any specifics of what made her beautiful, or link to himself in any ways), and it's a huge deal. My personal speculation is it's because people aren't comfortable about a grandfatherly-type commenting on a girl less than a third his age. Imagine if it had been Jesse Palmer (former football QB, bachelor contestant, and current announcer) instead. I'm somewhat skeptical we'd be getting the same reaction.

To be fair, I think it is also because he overdid it (ie. simply went to the well too many times). Full disclosure, I noticed it during the game too. But isn't that kind of silly? I mean, are we really saying "It's ok to objectify a given woman twice in a 3 hour football game, but don't do it 3 times, even if the game's a blowout, because that's completely inappropriate!"?

[DukieInKansas]

Two questions that come to my mind - caveat is that I didn't see the game so only kniow what I have read.
1. Did the camera keep going back to her and that caused the multiple comments or did the comments cause the camera to keep returning to her?

2, The flip side of the comments are that the only way McCarron would attract a beautiful woman is because he is a QB. Frankly, it doesn't say much about either one of them if the only thing keeping them together is her looks and his success at football. My guess is that is what brought them to each other's attention but not the only thing keeping them together - especially since she went to Auburn. :-)

And why are most of the camera operators men? I noticed this when I was a regular attendee at Arrowhead as they would show attractive women on the screen and overweight, usually shirtless, men. No eye candy for us women. :-(

[gus]

My personal speculation is it's because people aren't comfortable about a grandfatherly-type commenting on a girl less than a third his age. Imagine if it had been Jesse Palmer (former football QB, bachelor contestant, and current announcer) instead. I'm somewhat skeptical we'd be getting the same reaction.

I think you are right: his age is undoubtedly part of the reaction.

[sporthenry]

Statistically, it's not a coincidence that the QB of the national champion Alabama football team is dating Miss Alabama. Musberger was completely right in saying that if you're a talented high schooler, and go on to be the QB at Alabama (or Texas, USC, Nebraska, wherever) you, too, will greatly increase your chances of dating a beauty queen. You know, if you're into that sort of thing.

I agree with your post but this is what I thought was one of the funnier things to come out of this. I saw and heard tons of comments about how "true love" and "fate" worked out so well that it put Miss Alabama and the QB at Alabama together.

[lotusland]

I agree with your post but this is what I thought was one of the funnier things to come out of this. I saw and heard tons of comments about how "true love" and "fate" worked out so well that it put Miss Alabama and the QB at Alabama together.

Brent's comments were tame compared to what my buds were texting during the game. She entered and won a beauty contest so I think it's safe to say she is OK with guys noticing that she is fairly attractive for a beautiful young coed. I hope that I will still notice it when I'm 102.

[sporthenry]

So this sends an antiquated message to both boys and girls. This may be acceptable in some quarters, but not on national television in 2013, as ESPN's apology demonstrates.

I don't doubt that it might do this but then so will tons of other things. You could apply this argument to commercials and ads showing attractive women with men or as some type of prize. Why do they just show attractive women almost any time they pan to the crowd?

I just think this stuff is all around us and to ding Musberger for coming out and saying what most of us were thinking, seems unfair. If that is the only time kids come in contact with this idea of women being a prize, I'm not sure how it will take root in a kid. It would seem they need constant conditioning for this type of thing to implement itself.

And on top of this, this coincidence of the star QB getting the attractive women seems to happen quite a lot. Just look at Tebow, Ponder, Leinart (in the hot tub), Romo, Brady, Sanchez, Stafford, Tannehill, Cutler, Brady Quinn... I can't really blame Musberger for saying something that is on most of our minds.

[Indoor66]

I think you are right: his age is undoubtedly part of the reaction.

What is wrong with 72 or 73? He ain't dead.

[gus]

I don't doubt that it might do this but then so will tons of other things. You could apply this argument to commercials and ads showing attractive women with men or as some type of prize. Why do they just show attractive women almost any time they pan to the crowd?

I just think this stuff is all around us and to ding Musberger for coming out and saying what most of us were thinking, seems unfair. If that is the only time kids come in contact with this idea of women being a prize, I'm not sure how it will take root in a kid. It would seem they need constant conditioning for this type of thing to implement itself.

And on top of this, this coincidence of the star QB getting the attractive women seems to happen quite a lot. Just look at Tebow, Ponder, Leinart (in the hot tub), Romo, Brady, Sanchez, Stafford, Tannehill, Cutler, Brady Quinn... I can't really blame Musberger for saying something that is on most of our minds.

Well, I don't think Musburger should be dinged either, but I think this should approached as something that generates discussion.


On cue, here at work: on my trading floor we have CNBC playing without sound. They had Maria Bartiromo interviewing a woman, and the chyron said "women fund managers outperformed men in 2012".

One of my coworkers, a man in his late twenties, said "What does she look like?" referring to the woman being interviewed. He wasn't trying to be funny.

[Reisen]

Two questions that come to my mind - caveat is that I didn't see the game so only kniow what I have read.
1. Did the camera keep going back to her and that caused the multiple comments or did the comments cause the camera to keep returning to her?

2, The flip side of the comments are that the only way McCarron would attract a beautiful woman is because he is a QB. Frankly, it doesn't say much about either one of them if the only thing keeping them together is her looks and his success at football. My guess is that is what brought them to each other's attention but not the only thing keeping them together - especially since she went to Auburn. :-)

And why are most of the camera operators men? I noticed this when I was a regular attendee at Arrowhead as they would show attractive women on the screen and overweight, usually shirtless, men. No eye candy for us women. :-(

The camera kept going to her first, definitely. Maybe Musberger has some influence over that (I think it's the director instead, and Musberger just reacts). I suppose he could have just talked about something else when they showed her?

You're totally right on the camera operators, though. It cracks me up when you see a football game and a pretty girl, then a 300 pound shirtless man in 40 degree weather.

I disagree on the eye candy comment, though. Heck, 90% of the game is beefed up men running around in tight pants, no?

[Jim3k]

The camera kept going to her first, definitely. Maybe Musberger has some influence over that (I think it's the director instead, and Musberger just reacts). I suppose he could have just talked about something else when they showed her?

You're totally right on the camera operators, though. It cracks me up when you see a football game and a pretty girl, then a 300 pound shirtless man in 40 degree weather.

I disagree on the eye candy comment, though. Heck, 90% of the game is beefed up men running around in tight pants, no?

I said earlier that TV is to blame. Here's the (probable) proof: It's the director who tells the cameramen where to shoot. The camera operator doesn't do it on his own. While they're focusing, the director will tell the on-air talent (Musberger, here) about the upcoming shot. He will also provide any information about the subject of the shot, all via the earpiece. Frequently, the director or the producers in the truck will tell the talent who the subject is, what the subject's game-connected story is. Then the talent will comment within the network guidelines. That's all Musberger did.

Furthermore, Musberger's comment about quarterbacks getting the the beautiful girls was made to sidekick Kirk Herbstreit--who was a quarterback at Ohio State and who, as Musberger well knew, is married married to a former tOSU cheerleader--who is a beauty herself, thus supporting Musberger's point. [Links are available, but why? A bit intrusive, IMO.]

[lotusland]

I said earlier that TV is to blame. Here's the (probable) proof: It's the director who tells the cameramen where to shoot. The camera operator doesn't do it on his own. While they're focusing, the director will tell the on-air talent (Musberger, here) about the upcoming shot. He will also provide any information about the subject of the shot, all via the earpiece. Frequently, the director or the producers in the truck will tell the talent who the subject is, what the subject's game-connected story is. Then the talent will comment within the network guidelines. That's all Musberger did.

Furthermore, Musberger's comment about quarterbacks getting the the beautiful girls was made to sidekick Kirk Herbstreit--who was a quarterback at Ohio State and who, as Musberger well knew, is married married to a former tOSU cheerleader--who is a beauty herself, thus supporting Musberger's point. [Links are available, but why? A bit intrusive, IMO.]

I think you might be confused about who the talent is in this scenario Oops now I've made a comment that was disrespectful towards women - Please except my sincerest apologies.

[TruBlu]

First, I feel badly that a thread which I started in jest may have led to some bad feelings among the Duke family on DBR.

I would also like to second Bob's post. While my opinions sometimes differ with Mike's, I also think that Mike is one of the best posters and find his posts thoughtful and insightful. Keep up the good work, Mike.

Lastly, let's get back to something I think we can all agree on: GTHC

[Mike Corey]

I don't doubt that it might do this but then so will tons of other things. You could apply this argument to commercials and ads showing attractive women with men or as some type of prize. Why do they just show attractive women almost any time they pan to the crowd?

I just think this stuff is all around us and to ding Musberger for coming out and saying what most of us were thinking, seems unfair. If that is the only time kids come in contact with this idea of women being a prize, I'm not sure how it will take root in a kid. It would seem they need constant conditioning for this type of thing to implement itself.

And on top of this, this coincidence of the star QB getting the attractive women seems to happen quite a lot. Just look at Tebow, Ponder, Leinart (in the hot tub), Romo, Brady, Sanchez, Stafford, Tannehill, Cutler, Brady Quinn... I can't really blame Musberger for saying something that is on most of our minds.

The point that many have made that this is indication of something rather common--woman as prize--is surely a good point. That is no reason not to object to it, however, upon its occurrence.

The problem isn't in acknowledging that she's beautiful--she objectively is. The problem is in what Musburger, and our culture, does after that observation.

Is Musburger getting picked on across the media because of his age? In part, absolutely. I don't think my objections are relevant to his age, however.

It's not about women and men that are successful and good-looking coming together. That is, surely, frequent. To me, this is about the assumption that a good-looking woman has a natural place: in the arms of a successful man. That was the implication of Musburger's statement to me. Is it an uncommon one? Certainly not; but here's an opportunity to discuss it.

[Matches]

But this is part of a larger pattern of objectifying women and reducing their worth to their physical beauty alone. Denying this attitude exists is as silly as denying that physical appearance influences peoples' judgment. This is where empathy and intellect should come to play.

I think that objectifying women (or men, for that matter) is not the same thing as reducing their worth to physical beauty alone. Objectification is a natural and not unhealthy part of sexual attraction. It does not preclude also connecting with people or appreciating them on a level other than the purely physical.

Too often I think those two things get conflated with one another, which has the effect of treating superficial physical attraction as a sign of disrespect to the opposite sex. I don't think it is. Certainly it would not be healthy for someone to *only* be able to appreciate or connect with women in that way, but it's completely natural for that to be part of a person's makeup, especially in a situation like this where we're talking about a camera shot of a pretty girl in a crowd.

[gus]

I think that objectifying women (or men, for that matter) is not the same thing as reducing their worth to physical beauty alone. Objectification is a natural and not unhealthy part of sexual attraction. It does not preclude also connecting with people or appreciating them on a level other than the purely physical.

Too often I think those two things get conflated with one another, which has the effect of treating superficial physical attraction as a sign of disrespect to the opposite sex. I don't think it is. Certainly it would not be healthy for someone to *only* be able to appreciate or connect with women in that way, but it's completely natural for that to be part of a person's makeup, especially in a situation like this where we're talking about a camera shot of a pretty girl in a crowd.

Now we're getting into a semantic debate, which I love.

For the record, my use of "objectify" in this context is intended to preclude "connecting with people or appreciating them on a level other than the purely physical." I think that connation is well understood and pervasive. You can't define that away (but of course, you can argue that objectification doesn't truly exist or isn't prevalent.)

[cato]

Brent's comments were tame compared to what my buds were texting during the game. She entered and won a beauty contest so I think it's safe to say she is OK with guys noticing that she is fairly attractive for a beautiful young coed. I hope that I will still notice it when I'm 102.

Why do people still use the term coed? Do we really need to differentiate between those modern schools that accept women and those that don't?

[Matches]

Now we're getting into a semantic debate, which I love.

For the record, my use of "objectify" in this context is intended to preclude "connecting with people or appreciating them on a level other than the purely physical." I think that connation is well understood and pervasive. You can't define that away (but of course, you can argue that objectification doesn't truly exist or isn't prevalent.)

I don't see it as merely a semantic difference because, as I said, I think the way the term is often used has the effect of demonizing something that is pretty innocent. (I feel the same way about the term "misogyny", which often seems to be used interchangeably with "sexism".)

But with that said, you're using it however you're using it - there's really no arguing with that. Circling it back around, I don't think that anything Musberger said about Webb precludes him or anyone else from taking her seriously as a human being.

[sagegrouse]

That is, of course, a mere fraction of what Musburger said.



So this sends an antiquated message to both boys and girls. This may be acceptable in some quarters, but not on national television in 2013, as ESPN's apology demonstrates.

The message--which, quite frankly, is hardly veiled--is that women of suitable attractiveness are a prize for talented boys.

This message, echoed in reverse by Doris Burke, would be just as inappropriate. But of course, such would not happen; there aren't several decades of cultural inertia behind it to support the "boys will be boys" justification for it.

Sure, she's attractive. But the relationship and her place was immediately and nationally objectified into superficiality: it's not about anything other than getting a beautiful woman. And while some corners of psychology might suggest that is truly the driver of men, I'd suggest that's not the kind of serious conversation Musburger was attempting to spark.

That she's capitalizing on the attention is irrelevant to the grander point about how we as a culture continue to approach men and women.

First, I feel badly that a thread which I started in jest may have led to some bad feelings among the Duke family on DBR.

I would also like to second Bob's post. While my opinions sometimes differ with Mike's, I also think that Mike is one of the best posters and find his posts thoughtful and insightful. Keep up the good work, Mike.

Lastly, let's get back to something I think we can all agree on: GTHC

A couple of observations.

First, I believe it is still OK for a young man to try to win the hand of the fairest maiden in the land. It is even OK, even if tittered at, for the young man to head off on a white charger to accomplish same. And if someone wants to make a link between the QB and the guy on the white horse -- fine with me. It is also OK to tell women they are "beautiful" in the appropriate setting (e.g. NOT in a professional context).

Second, Mussberger's initial comment was fine, but it went on way too long and he apologized. And in this way I agree with Mike C. - it was a bit excruciating. Actually, it was the director in the truck controlling the shots, so he was trapped, but he's a pro and he should have figured out a way out of it. And, as others have noted, the game was a stinker, and the crew was doing everything possible to retain viewers.

sagegrouse

[Mal]

Furthermore, Musberger's comment about quarterbacks getting the the beautiful girls was made to sidekick Kirk Herbstreit--who was a quarterback at Ohio State and who, as Musberger well knew, is married married to a former tOSU cheerleader--who is a beauty herself, thus supporting Musberger's point. [Links are available, but why? A bit intrusive, IMO.]

Great point. In my denseness, I had completed missed this angle, but I would put money on this being the sole critical factor in Musberger's misjudgment. As anyone who watched the Buckeyes play at Cameron back in November will recall, Herbstreit's wife is a very attractive woman, and it's well known that she was a cheerleader at The State University of Ohio (that's my petty way of mocking the whole "The" OSU thing). Brent has forever been downright pathological about ingratiating himself to his color analysts, and making a friendly jab at Herbstreit while at the same time reminding an audience of 50 million that his co-host is a very successful former athlete with a beauty by his side was meant to be simultaneously funny and bootlicking.

[SoCalDukeFan]

natalie-nelson-usc-1_0.jpg

This gal is married to Ryan Kalil, an offensive lineman.

BTW I am not a big fan of Brett at all. I think he was having fun with Herbstreit on the QB thing and stating the obvious on her looks. However I think he made the point too many times.

SoCal