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  1. #1
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    Mar 2007
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    Interesting Podcast Discussion of Duke

    CBSSports.com does a really good college basketball podcast a few times a week. It is hosted by Matt Norlander, one of CBSSports.com's bloggers, and typically features CBSSports writers Gary Parish and Jeff Goodman and on-air talent Seth Davis and Doug Gottlieb as guests (not all at the same time).

    On the most recent episode, Doug Gottlieb was the guest. From the 39:45 - 45:45 mark, Norlander and Gottlieb do a deep dive on Duke. It is really interesting. Gottlieb, citing sources inside the program, gives an extremely candid take of the team. I know there are a lot of Gottlieb critics on DBR, and as you listen you may continue to feel that he is an acerbic, opinionated jerk (I don't feel that way, but many do), but the takeaways are hugely positive, and while he shares some inside info that many have assumed, I haven't seen it aired with such openness, including:

    -Quinn Cook is the key reason why the team is playing better. Last year, he was a source of frustration for the coaches who said he wasn't running what they told him to run and was too often freelancing. That has changed this year.
    -While Plumlee has made huge improvements, it is the emergence of Cook and, more importantly, the subtraction of Rivers, that has made the primary difference in Plumlee's game. He portrays Rivers as an island on the team, cut off and doing his own thing. Despite the public staff assertions that the team was united, he calls it a fractured team because of Rivers. Good kid, huge talent, good attitude, but made no one better and stunted the team's growth.

    He says a lot more, but his frank descriptions that I have paraphrased above, which he says came straight from people on the staff, were thoughts I had never heard spoken so plainly. Both he and Norlander have Duke pegged as legit title contenders.

    The whole pod is good. The first 35 minutes or so are all about Rick Majerus and are really entertaining with several crazy anecdotes. He also gets heavy into the UCLA situation and spares no feelings. For those who want to hear some piling on Larry Drew III and Tony Parker, have at it.

    You can get it here or on iTunes
    http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ajerus-stories

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    just FYI, link doesn't work. I think you're trying to link this one?

    It's interesting that Rivers is having the same problems in the NBA. ESPN also criticizes Rivers for not wanting to distribute the ball.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/p...203/daily-dime

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    CBSSports.com does a really good college basketball podcast a few times a week. It is hosted by Matt Norlander, one of CBSSports.com's bloggers, and typically features CBSSports writers Gary Parish and Jeff Goodman and on-air talent Seth Davis and Doug Gottlieb as guests (not all at the same time).

    On the most recent episode, Doug Gottlieb was the guest. From the 39:45 - 45:45 mark, Norlander and Gottlieb do a deep dive on Duke. It is really interesting. Gottlieb, citing sources inside the program, gives an extremely candid take of the team. I know there are a lot of Gottlieb critics on DBR, and as you listen you may continue to feel that he is an acerbic, opinionated jerk (I don't feel that way, but many do), but the takeaways are hugely positive, and while he shares some inside info that many have assumed, I haven't seen it aired with such openness, including:

    -Quinn Cook is the key reason why the team is playing better. Last year, he was a source of frustration for the coaches who said he wasn't running what they told him to run and was too often freelancing. That has changed this year.
    -While Plumlee has made huge improvements, it is the emergence of Cook and, more importantly, the subtraction of Rivers, that has made the primary difference in Plumlee's game. He portrays Rivers as an island on the team, cut off and doing his own thing. Despite the public staff assertions that the team was united, he calls it a fractured team because of Rivers. Good kid, huge talent, good attitude, but made no one better and stunted the team's growth.

    He says a lot more, but his frank descriptions that I have paraphrased above, which he says came straight from people on the staff, were thoughts I had never heard spoken so plainly. Both he and Norlander have Duke pegged as legit title contenders.

    The whole pod is good. The first 35 minutes or so are all about Rick Majerus and are really entertaining with several crazy anecdotes. He also gets heavy into the UCLA situation and spares no feelings. For those who want to hear some piling on Larry Drew III and Tony Parker, have at it.

    You can get it here or on iTunes
    http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ajerus-stories

    It's Drew Too (II) not Drew III, the hoop deities having spared us still another one of those (thus far).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    It's Drew Too (II) not Drew III, the hoop deities having spared us still another one of those (thus far).
    Thanks, I think I've got RGIII on the brain after last night. Is it safe to say that LDII is not RGIII?

    Sorry for all the mistakes, but that pod is worth a listen. I have rarely heard a major college hoops pundit be so candid on so many topics. The story he tells about a player trying to get his transfer waiver from a naked Majerus is worth the listen alone. Needless to say, Majerus was more interested in describing a urological problem he was experiencing. No worries, this is not Sandusky territory, rather crazy relative type stuff.

  5. #5
    This whole "Duke's ceiling is lower than younger teams" is complete garbage. Duke has A LOT of room to improve. Ryan Kelly just found his stroke in the second half of the Ohio State game, Sulaimon is still figuring things out. Cook still needs to learn how to play under control while keeping the throttle down. Amile, Murphy, Hairston. Are they playing to their potential? Is Sulaimon? Is Seth Curry as healthy as he will be this year?

    Keep thinking Duke has no room to improve and you will continue to be wrong.

  6. #6

    Gottlieb

    The whole idea that Gottlieb has sources within the team is laughable ... he's personna non grata at Duke.

    He's just spewing the same half-baked garbage that he's always offered -- remember, Mason was one of his "alarming unathletic big men"

  7. #7

    I agree....

    Quote Originally Posted by airowe View Post
    This whole "Duke's ceiling is lower than younger teams" is complete garbage. Duke has A LOT of room to improve. Ryan Kelly just found his stroke in the second half of the Ohio State game, Sulaimon is still figuring things out. Cook still needs to learn how to play under control while keeping the throttle down. Amile, Murphy, Hairston. Are they playing to their potential? Is Sulaimon? Is Seth Curry as healthy as he will be this year?

    Keep thinking Duke has no room to improve and you will continue to be wrong.
    And we also haven't even seen Marshall on the floor yet; and if comes back as anticipated, he will give Duke additional size and options offensively and defensively which will allow this Duke team to continue grow and develop as the season goes along.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    The whole idea that Gottlieb has sources within the team is laughable ... he's personna non grata at Duke.

    He's just spewing the same half-baked garbage that he's always offered -- remember, Mason was one of his "alarming unathletic big men"
    yeah, probably garbage

    Just a guess...he may have some relationship or connection with Jeff Capel, developed while Jeff was at VCU and then Oklahoma.

    It pains Gottlieb to say nice things about Duke, but at some point he has to report what he sees. And what he has seen this year so far has been excellent.

    I'll go with Airowe in scoffing at the assertion that Duke has a lower ceiling than some other teams, that they've somehow gotten good but are unlikely to improve much further.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    The whole idea that Gottlieb has sources within the team is laughable ... he's personna non grata at Duke.
    He's just spewing the same half-baked garbage that he's always offered -- remember, Mason was one of his "alarming unathletic big men"
    Gottlieb has spent a lot of time around the program, including being part of the trip to the Middle East last summer. If he were personna non grata, why was he a guest on K's Sirius show? I wouldn't write off his sources so quickly. I also don't think what he said was wrong, I just hadn't seen it spoken so bluntly and plainly by a major television media member.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    Gottlieb has spent a lot of time around the program, including being part of the trip to the Middle East last summer.
    I don't think he actually went on the trip last summer. My interpretation of what he said while announcing the games was he was watching remotely on a monitor, probably back in Connecticut.

  11. #11

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I don't think he actually went on the trip last summer. My interpretation of what he said while announcing the games was he was watching remotely on a monitor, probably back in Connecticut.
    You are probably correct, now that I recall. Gottlieb is polarizing, I guess I hung my hat to his conclusion that he really liked our team rather than the thinking out loud that came before it where he talked about our ceiling.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    You are probably correct, now that I recall. Gottlieb is polarizing, I guess I hung my hat to his conclusion that he really liked our team rather than the thinking out loud that came before it where he talked about our ceiling.
    While I disagree with him about our ceiling, I agree with you that he was pretty positive about Duke in general. If Gottlieb says he thinks Duke has a chance at the national championship, we must be really good.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    You are probably correct, now that I recall. Gottlieb is polarizing, I guess I hung my hat to his conclusion that he really liked our team rather than the thinking out loud that came before it where he talked about our ceiling.
    The part of his analysis that struck me as less than observant, was the idea that this year's team has to "run plays" to win and that we are better this year than last, in part, because Cook can "run stuff."

    He also said we are not like Duke teams from 10 years ago (I presume he means the Jason Williams, Duhon, Dunleavy, Boozer days) because we can't just spread people out and beat defenders off the dribble and make shots.

    I think that is exactly what we are doing, especially with Kelly pulling his man out of the post, and opening lanes for Cook and Rasheed and Seth to drive dish and/or score.

    Cook is a big part of why Duke is better (and I think we are clearly better), but I don't perceive that to be a consequence of Cook flawlessly executing set plays. He is just playing under control more, playing GREAT defense, and creating opportunities (from half court alleyoops to dishes in traffic) that no one could create last year.

    Gottlieb is smart enough to understand that Duke is better and will compete against top competition this year.

    But the guy is just relentlessly negative, and not that insightful on the substance. There is a reason he does radio shows and takes pot shots at 18-year olds and Jay Wright instead of trying his own hand at coaching.

  15. #15
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    The whole idea that Gottlieb has sources within the team is laughable ... he's personna non grata at Duke.

    He's just spewing the same half-baked garbage that he's always offered -- remember, Mason was one of his "alarming unathletic big men"
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    Gottlieb has spent a lot of time around the program, including being part of the trip to the Middle East last summer. If he were personna non grata, why was he a guest on K's Sirius show? I wouldn't write off his sources so quickly. I also don't think what he said was wrong, I just hadn't seen it spoken so bluntly and plainly by a major television media member.
    Hey, guys -- It's business. Gottlieb was college basketball guy at ESPN, which pays the bills for the ACC. Now he has a basketball show at CBS, which has carried the NCAA tournament for a couple of decades and throws a billion or so into the college basketball coffers every now and then. Why aren't the coaches at Duke going to talk to him on the phone? Because he dissed a Duke team that later won a national championship? Puh-leese!

    Will he have to talk to Chris, Wojo or Jeff rather than K? I don't know the particulars, but Chris seems to take the head coach's role in most press contacts. Duke's pretty disciplined -- the party line is the party line -- so I don't know that it makes a difference, except for the direct quotes.

    And I am not throwing Austin Rivers under the bus, even if the inside reports on him from last year were somewhat negative. Who's to say he wouldn't have developed a more complete game if he had stayed two more years? While most players don't make much of a mark as freshmen, Austin made 1st team All-ACC.

    sagegrouse
    'Grousier than usual today, but that's because I have to wait seven full days for the next Duke game'

  16. #16

    My Take

    Certainly Duke can get better and should get better when Marshall is able to play.

    But I am very worried about Seth and just how much we will get out him.

    And while I think Marshall will be a good player for Duke, I don't think he's scary good at least not this year.
    I would also think that Jefferson and Murphy should improve as the season progresses.


    SoCal

  17. #17
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    If Duke is near its "ceiling," does that mean that the coaching staff has already coached them to their full potential? Sounds like great coaching to me. Thanks douggie.

  18. #18
    I have a possibly warped view of the podcast and the growth of the team dynamic (I know I’m the island on the fan-team here because I view Rivers as a scapegoat). The overall theme I take away from the podcast is that the difference this year is Duke playing as a team. It seems to me that he posits that returning players now “know their roles, have accepted their roles, and [are] flourishing within their roles.” In fact, he provides examples of Hairston’s and Thornton’s roles to illustrate what he means by “team.”

    He spends some time critiquing Duke’s offense, particularly citing last year and the importance of ‘running the offense’ as opposed to ‘freelancing.’ As Monmouth77 pointed out, we are still spreading the floor and opening lanes this year…so what’s the difference? I think Gottlieb is alluding to the difference being that we are continuing to run our motion throughout the possession. So, yes, we are still using a spread with driving, dishing, spotting up, the same as always. But, the offense continues to be dynamic, opening up options as the flow develops. I don’t think the difference he is referring to is set plays or spread offense so much as actually ‘running the offense.’ He states, “They’ve been a little bit too much freelance because they’ve had talented guys who were, you know, ‘ball stoppers’ as they call them. The ball will get to their hands and everybody stops and watches. That’s what they had last year.” He contrasts ‘running the offense’ with a previous tendency to “screen, spread it out, and then we’re just going to climb into you” which is what Austin ended up doing last year.

    Notably, he does say “there was Austin Rivers and there was everybody else,” but he does not say the lack of teamwork was due to Rivers’ play. Quite the contrary. To me, he appears to be referencing other players’ limited roles as the cause of poor teamwork which, in turn, isolated Rivers as a static offense.
    · He says the Seth-Mason isolation near the closing of the UK game, could not have happened last year.
    · He reports last year’s question of how to use Cook and Thornton
    · He notes that Seth’s role was primarily limited to shooting
    · He posits that Ryan can’t be used in a ball screen offense
    · Most of all, he talks about the improvement of Cook who wasn’t on the same page as the team and couldn't connect the limited pieces

    In essence, you can’t build a quality team/system with limited parts. We’ve had a string of extremely strong players and leaders prior to last year. As a result, the members of last year’s team were never forced to take on big roles. It was an unfortunate circumstance: our big roles left, Austin came in and was handed the big role, our little roles deferred (shooters stood in their spots, post-players main task was having their hands ready), Austin was forced to take more control, our little roles deferred more….and, the result is that our offense isn’t run.

    This year, we have taken on bigger roles:
    · Mason can dominate down low
    · Cook and Thornton apparently have worked on their shots and on-ball defense
    · Seth developed more craftiness in isolation, fakes, and drives
    · Ryan….well, I just disagree with Gottlieb’s whole statement here!
    · And, finally, in Gottlieb's view, the presence of a point guard is the biggest difference. We can now direct the roles to work as a unit….you might say it sets the whole offense in motion!

    It’s fantastic to see how the players have grown into bigger roles…perhaps they had to because Austin is gone. It is fair to wonder if the team will develop further, but it is ridiculous to think that the ceiling is topped out.

    An aside:
    I’m not a Rivers’ apologist, but appear to be one by context. In my view, everything fits together as a system. His role develops according to the will of those around him as much as their roles develop according to his will. It is the responsibility of the party outside of the system, the coach, to direct and foster these dynamics. Do we really think Coach K wouldn’t handle Austin if he was the sole cause of strife, stagnation, and the stunting of the team as the popular media and fan meme suggests? If he didn’t follow Coach K’s gameplan, would Coach K really play him the most? In essence, the team requested him to be who he was….and he was darn good at what we asked him to do!
    [Also, check out NBA SGs playing 15+ minutes: Austin is 6th in assists per possession (Redick is 3rd)]

  19. #19
    So he thinks Duke is a legit national title contender but that other teams have a higher ceiling? What ceiling is higher than the National Championship? That's as high as any team can go. I wonder if they mean that other teams have more room for growth (i.e. pretend that Duke is a 7 out of 10 right now and UK is a 3 out of 10.) but even then Duke has plenty to improve on and plenty of room for growth because of young guys like Marshall, Alex, Amile, Quinn, and Rasheed getting better throughout the season (the upperclassmen can get better too).

    And I don't know about the whole Austin being a team cancer thing but what I do believe is that Rasheed is a much more complete basketball player. He's a better passer, better shooter, better defender, better finisher in the paint...the only thing he's not better at is getting by his man off the dribble yet he's still pretty good at that.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviled View Post
    I’m not a Rivers’ apologist, but appear to be one by context. In my view, everything fits together as a system. His role develops according to the will of those around him as much as their roles develop according to his will. It is the responsibility of the party outside of the system, the coach, to direct and foster these dynamics. Do we really think Coach K wouldn’t handle Austin if he was the sole cause of strife, stagnation, and the stunting of the team as the popular media and fan meme suggests? If he didn’t follow Coach K’s gameplan, would Coach K really play him the most? In essence, the team requested him to be who he was….and he was darn good at what we asked him to do!
    [Also, check out NBA SGs playing 15+ minutes: Austin is 6th in assists per possession (Redick is 3rd)]
    This is an excellent ending of a very well thought out post. Nice work!

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