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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Nitpick noted. According to the rules it's illegal. The refs unwillingness to call it is what makes me unhappy (again - this isn't a criticism of Battier), because I don't care for that style of basketball.
    But singling out Battier for it is wrong. Perkins, Ibaka, Collison... they're just as bad about it and getting called for it just as much as Battier.

    The NBA needs to focus on cleaning it up, not just because of the fact that it's ugly basketball, but it's also dangerous. A lot of guys come up limping when they get a posterior to the hip as they run by because the screener moves.

  2. #62
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    But singling out Battier for it is wrong. Perkins, Ibaka, Collison... they're just as bad about it and getting called for it just as much as Battier.

    The NBA needs to focus on cleaning it up, not just because of the fact that it's ugly basketball, but it's also dangerous. A lot of guys come up limping when they get a posterior to the hip as they run by because the screener moves.
    It's a thread about Battier, and he's doing it to a greater extent than those other guys (or at least in a notably different way). If the discussion were about Perkins, Ibaka, and Collison, I'd have said it about them. But since it was a discussion about Battier, I was not singling him out and therefore it was not wrong.

    Totally agree on the second part.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Moving in front but not making contact is legal. What Battier is doing is staying in constant contact while chasing the defender around. That's not legal. It is the very definition of a moving screen because he's very rarely ever stationary during the screen.
    Basketball is a contact sport. Contact is always somewhat subjective for the refs. Only certain fouls get called routinely (the 2-hand hand check in NCAA comes to mind). Otherwise, contact must cross some threshold to be called a foul.

    My point is that so long as the defender is not attempting to move through the screen, the contact is not crossing whatever threshold the nba refs use. The defender needs to stop running around in a way Shane can keep a body on him, and force the issue by running directly into Shane. When one or both of them wind up on the floor, the refs will (likely) make a call.

    -jk

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I thought Shane did less flopping yesterday, while still playing his excellent D. As Spolestra said before game 4, the media and fans don't notice Shane until he's hitting shots, but the guys on the floor know how much value he provides even in a game like yesterday's where he doesn't score much.

    He was perfectly positioned to draw a charge on Durant off a breakaway, only to have Chalmers called for a reach-in foul prior to contact. You could see the frustration on Battier's face at the fact that he just allowed a 6'9 guy to barrel into him at full speed for nothing.

  5. #65
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I thought Shane did less flopping yesterday, while still playing his excellent D. As Spolestra said before game 4, the media and fans don't notice Shane until he's hitting shots, but the guys on the floor know how much value he provides even in a game like yesterday's where he doesn't score much.

    He was perfectly positioned to draw a charge on Durant off a breakaway, only to have Chalmers called for a reach-in foul prior to contact. You could see the frustration on Battier's face at the fact that he just allowed a 6'9 guy to barrel into him at full speed for nothing.
    I agree that Battier isn't flopping nearly as much as he has historically done. His defensive effort has been pretty great all around. He's taken full advantage of the refs' unwillingness to call fouls for excessive body contact in making it difficult for Durant to catch passes on the perimeter. And he's playing smart positional defense as always. And in transition, he's almost always one of the guys back trying to prevent layups.

    Although I don't think the play you're discussing in the second paragraph would have ever resulted in charge. In the replay (and seeing Durant's eyes on the play), Durant was clearly sizing Battier up and was going to jump around him. But Chalmers grabbed Durant's arm and pulled him off balance (preventing Durant from making his move). I think if Chalmers doesn't foul there that Durant glides right around Battier for a finger roll.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I thought Shane did less flopping yesterday, while still playing his excellent D. As Spolestra said before game 4, the media and fans don't notice Shane until he's hitting shots, but the guys on the floor know how much value he provides even in a game like yesterday's where he doesn't score much.

    He was perfectly positioned to draw a charge on Durant off a breakaway, only to have Chalmers called for a reach-in foul prior to contact. You could see the frustration on Battier's face at the fact that he just allowed a 6'9 guy to barrel into him at full speed for nothing.
    If Durant is actually 6'9" then Mugsy Bogues is 2'11"

  7. #67
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    If Durant is actually 6'9" then Mugsy Bogues is 2'11"
    At the predraft combine, Durant measured at 6'9" without shoes, 6'10.25" in shoes.

  8. #68
    My opinion is that the recent uptick in outrage over flopping has led a lot of non-flopping plays to be lumped in as "flopping." If you have legitimate position, an offensive player runs into you, and you sell the contact by allowing yourself to fall backwards rather than doing what you can to stay standing, that's not flopping. If you tried to just stumble backwards or hold your ground, you would never get the call. Flopping on defense is when you try to get position to make this kind of play, the offensive player successfully evades contact, and you fall without contact or grossly exaggerate the contact to make it seem like you had position and were fouled. I think that Shane generally flops less than other players because he is so good at actually getting himself into position to take legitimate contact. The key charge taken on Durant is a great example. Shane fell over, but that was no flop - Durant went barreling right into him. I'm not saying that most are pointing to this play as evidence of Shane flopping, but I think that a lot of good plays get incorrectly labeled as such these days.

  9. #69
    I've enjoyed watching Battier play in the playoffs and finals. In particular, I like how he's been blocking out on defensive rebounds. When the shot goes up he goes to block out someone, not always his own man. Have to wonder how many offensive rebounds and second chance points this has prevented and added up to over the course of a game, series etc. Of course he does a lot of things like that.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by tele View Post
    I've enjoyed watching Battier play in the playoffs and finals. In particular, I like how he's been blocking out on defensive rebounds. When the shot goes up he goes to block out someone, not always his own man. Have to wonder how many offensive rebounds and second chance points this has prevented and added up to over the course of a game, series etc. Of course he does a lot of things like that.
    ....like that little tap out to save a possession for Miami near the end of the last game. A lot of what he does doesn't make the stat sheets, but it matters in terms of who won the game. The coaches know it too, which is why he's starting in this series.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    i'm pulling for the heat to close it out tonight, and for shane to have a spectacular night...
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Stealth View Post
    My opinion is that the recent uptick in outrage over flopping has led a lot of non-flopping plays to be lumped in as "flopping." If you have legitimate position, an offensive player runs into you, and you sell the contact by allowing yourself to fall backwards rather than doing what you can to stay standing, that's not flopping. If you tried to just stumble backwards or hold your ground, you would never get the call. Flopping on defense is when you try to get position to make this kind of play, the offensive player successfully evades contact, and you fall without contact or grossly exaggerate the contact to make it seem like you had position and were fouled. I think that Shane generally flops less than other players because he is so good at actually getting himself into position to take legitimate contact. The key charge taken on Durant is a great example. Shane fell over, but that was no flop - Durant went barreling right into him. I'm not saying that most are pointing to this play as evidence of Shane flopping, but I think that a lot of good plays get incorrectly labeled as such these days.
    This is an excellent observation. Every so often, writers (and fans, but only to an extent that they feel THEIR guy was cheated) lament that a lesser (translation: smaller, faster, less skilled) player can be rewarded for a play (taking a charge) where they don't "make a play on the ball."

    That's about as stupid an argument as I've ever heard, but it is there.

    Thus, the columns from national writers saying "charges should be removed from the game" use the word "flopping" to describe the art of setting up an offensive player and taking a charge, essentially outsmarting the opponent. That way, the writer is more likely to elicit favor from the reader base, because nobody likes "flopping."

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Congratulations to Shane Battier on becoming one of the very few to have won a state championship in high school (3 times I believe), an NCAA championship, and an NBA title. A winner on every level. Way to go, Shane!

  14. #74
    Way to go Shane!

    Per John Schuhmann, Battier's eFG% (effective field goal %) was 85%.

    Holy cow!

  15. #75

    He earned it

    Despite the Heat's South Beach image, Shane had to work pretty hard to get a ring and there is no question he truly deserves it:


    Shane Battier said the Heat ranks among the league’s best in providing “whatever it takes to help us perform at our highest level - hot tubs, message therapists. You would be surprised how far behind the curve some teams are in that. But a lot is expected of us.” Most demanding place he has played? “Easily,” Battier said.

    Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...#storylink=cpy

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    Despite the Heat's South Beach image, Shane had to work pretty hard to get a ring and there is no question he truly deserves it:


    Shane Battier said the Heat ranks among the league’s best in providing “whatever it takes to help us perform at our highest level - hot tubs, message therapists. You would be surprised how far behind the curve some teams are in that. But a lot is expected of us.” Most demanding place he has played? “Easily,” Battier said.

    Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...#storylink=cpy
    Much as we may dislike "the Decision", you have to give the Heat credit; they earned it. They overcame injuries, fell behind in two series and came back twice, and showed they had the heart of champions (I mean I don't know if Mike Miller can even walk into the locker room standing up straight any more, and he hit 7 3 pointers). Shane came through with a vintage Shane performance; great defense, timely plays, and timely 3 pointers. He showed why the Heat got him, and earned his starting minutes. I believe he's the first Duke player to start for a championship team. His performance makes the Heat winning tolerable. Hope I can meet him at the White
    House when he becomes president!

  17. #77

    Different about Battier

    Love this spot about Battier that tells one of the aspects about him that makes him so different


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I got my radial head broken on just such a play. Yes, I have a big probloem with that play. The picture above with Shane and his hand in front of Durant's eyes, the ball is about to leave Durant's fingers. How would you react if you saw that hand coming to your face. You probably wouldn't need to know because your reaction would be reflexive, it would cause a change in the momentum of the shot precisely because a guy is moving towards you from at least a step away with an arm extended and his hand going for your face. Don't believe me, try it the next time you are on the court with a friend. See how he reacts and then ask him if he felt himself feel differently through the shot.
    What's a radial head, and how do you break it against someone's finger?

    As for your suggestion, that's how my friends and I have always played. Being contemporaries of Shane -- not to mention alarmingly unathletic -- that hand-in-the-face move has been standard repertoire since we started balling together 12 years ago. Smart, persistent defense is just about the only advantage we have in pickup games; no captain's ever picked me for my offensive skillset, that's for sure!

    I think that it is a cheap and dangerous move and I'd put a stop to it, were I the coach...If someone did that to LeBron, either Lebron the next time he had the chance when he built up a head of steam would look for that guy or take whomever was anywhere near in his way and make a collision happen that the guy would remember near the rest of his life...
    Shane has had 4 years under Coach K and 10 years with the world's best pros to get a cease & desist. By all accounts none is forthcoming.

    Even if we assume Battier's signature tactic is unique (yeah right), his career alone represents nearly 1000 games of intensely physical basketball at the highest levels. Result: 0 eye injuries and 0 escalated violence, to my knowledge. I'm afraid your view simply doesn't align with reality on the court.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonandblue View Post
    Collison basically does the same stuff for OKC as Battier does for the Heat. They know their roles and play them well. They're just not attractive roles. It's called "dirty" work for a reason in this case. Battier does some more clutching and grabbing, but he's on the perimeter. Collison meanwhile lines guys up for massive elbows in getting into blockout positions for rebounds. Battier flops more, but again, I think that's due to being stuck on the perimeter and needing to use something against quicker guys. At least Battier shoots the three. Collison's contribution is basically the occasional dunk off guard penetration or tap outs.

    Two guys who in college were tough, gritty and artful players are relegated in the NBA to being tougher and grittier.
    I'm not convinced you're being entirely fair. The NBA does have its fair share of players whose play remained artful even when their intrateam role required more grit than limelight. Ginobili springs to mind, along with Jason Kidd, and doubtless more I can't remember now. (my Texan bias is showing...)

    But that nitpick isn't why I'm writing. The future is more promising if your thesis IS true, for a certain Mr. Singler...

  20. Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    Basketball is a contact sport. Contact is always somewhat subjective for the refs. Only certain fouls get called routinely (the 2-hand hand check in NCAA comes to mind). Otherwise, contact must cross some threshold to be called a foul.

    My point is that so long as the defender is not attempting to move through the screen, the contact is not crossing whatever threshold the nba refs use. The defender needs to stop running around in a way Shane can keep a body on him, and force the issue by running directly into Shane. When one or both of them wind up on the floor, the refs will (likely) make a call.

    -jk

    To add to jk, and I'm not sure if we're talking about the same type of play, but in an interview Shane was asked about his body-contact defence on preventing Durant from catching the ball. His answer was that as long as there is no holding or using of arms, it isn't illegal. It's similar to how post players are bodied up. Makes sense to me!

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-shane-battier

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