All-Time ACC MBB Team

[roywhite]

John Roche was also the first ACC star that Mike Krzyzewski shut down.

The Army captain got the defensive assignment vs Roche in the 2nd round of the 1969 NIT and took him out of the game, leading to a 59-45 Army win.

[Nepos]

Thanks for the info on Mr. Roche. Sounds like he has one of the more interesting stories in ACC history -- an excellent player whose resume is probably a little more illustrious than it would have been in a different era.

[Verga3]

Sorry but I left out the most important qualifier in my post (can't believe it wasn't there). I started with the AP NPOY list, which begins in 1961 - Ford and Ferry weren't recipients. Thanks for your additions: I knew of the other Duke players earning NPOY awards but did not have a good reference to players from other schools.

Can we agree we have a candidate list of nominees?

Guards: Charlie Scott*, Ford, Jordan, JDawkins, JWill, Redick

Forwards: Heyman, Thompson, Grant Hill*, Smith, Jamison, Battier

Center and CF: Sampson, Ferry, Laettner, Duncan, Brand, Hansbrough

Eighteen players, evenly divided among the three categories. All but Scott and Grant won NPOY awards; they are highly deserving "wild card" (*) selections.

The next set of candidates is formidable as well: Chappell (Wake), Gminski, Worthy, Perkins, Daugherty. I'm not sure I'd bump someone else off the list to take one of these.

sagegrouse

One can always quibble, but this is a really well-thought list, sagegrouse. Here's my take on a Top 3 from your list (with a super-sub for each team):

First Team
Ford, Jordan, Thompson, Hill, Duncan (Laettner)

Second Team
JWill, Redick, Jamison, Battier, Sampson (Brand)

Third Team
Scott, Dawkins, Heyman, Smith, Ferry (Hansbrough)

Fun to think about how these teams would fare against each other.

[-jk]

Sorry - any first team that doesn't prominently feature both DT and Christian shows an utter lack of perspective.

In my humble opinion, of course.

-jk

[Newton_14]

Sorry - any first team that doesn't prominently feature both DT and Christian shows an utter lack of perspective.

In my humble opinion, of course.

-jk

Agree, and Jordan is not in the conversation. This has zilch to do with NBA accomplishments. It is 100% about what they did in College. A boatload of players had better college careers than Jordan did.

[turnandburn55]

Agree, and Jordan is not in the conversation. This has zilch to do with NBA accomplishments. It is 100% about what they did in College. A boatload of players had better college careers than Jordan did.

Completely agree. And if we're strictly talking about body of work vice "who I want on my team if my life is on the line", I can't justify putting either Jamison or Brand over Beaker. It pains me to say it because it made me ill watching him play, but the dude is the ACC's all-time leading scorer, a national champion, and the only dude in ACC history to make the first time unanimously all four years.

Again, I hate the player with a passion. But the accomplishments, on the balance, outweigh both Brand and Jamison.

[Verga3]

Agree, and Jordan is not in the conversation. This has zilch to do with NBA accomplishments. It is 100% about what they did in College. A boatload of players had better college careers than Jordan did.

Not so sure a "boatload" had better college careers. But for MJ not to be in the conversation? Not so sure about that.

[Newton_14]

Not so sure a "boatload" had better college careers. But for MJ not to be in the conversation? Not so sure about that.

He was a really good college player, but his stats and accomplishments in college fall short compared to the best the ACC has seen. I could never put him in the Top 10, and would need real convincing to put him in my top 15.

And I am someone who feels Jordan is still the best NBA player ever, so it is not a bias thing.

[Verga3]

He was a really good college player, but his stats and accomplishments in college fall short compared to the best the ACC has seen. I could never put him in the Top 10, and would need real convincing to put him in my top 15.

And I am someone who feels Jordan is still the best NBA player ever, so it is not a bias thing.

I hear you. We just disagree on this one...No worries.

[JBDuke]

Jason Williams comes to mind at the SG spot, based on your position assumptions.

He acheived a lot in 3 years, had several outstanding performances, and was a key player on a National Championship team.
Was there a 3-year player who had a higher scoring total?

Lots of 3-year players that exceed JWill's 2079 points. One fairly recent ACC player, Dennis Scott, scored 2115. The NCAA career leader is Pete Maravich, who scored 3667 in just 3 years. Other top ACC 3-year scorers: David Thompson (2309), Buzzy Wilkinson (2233), Len Chappell (2165).

[Verga3]

Lots of 3-year players that exceed JWill's 2079 points. One fairly recent ACC player, Dennis Scott, scored 2115. The NCAA career leader is Pete Maravich, who scored 3667 in just 3 years. Other top ACC 3-year scorers: David Thompson (2309), Buzzy Wilkinson (2233), Len Chappell (2165).

Thanks, JBDuke. Maybe we should start an all-time NCAA thread. Two of my nominees would be Pete Maravich and David Thompson. Anyone with me?

[Olympic Fan]

Thanks, JBDuke. Maybe we should start an all-time NCAA thread. Two of my nominees would be Pete Maravich and David Thompson. Anyone with me?

Thompson, yes -- absolutely.

Maravich, no -- absolutely not. There are a lot of great players who could have posted similar or better stats is (1) they played on teams more designed to get them points than to winning; (2) they played in a second-rate basketball league (which the SEC was in Pete's days); (3) they were coached by the own father, who designed everything around them.

Maravich may be the only player in basketball history with a higher scoring average (44.2) than shooting percentage (43.8).

Just to re-interate my point about the weakness of the SEC in that era and is the fact that a guy named Johnny Neumann at Ole Miss essentially matched Maravich's production at LSU when he averaged over 40 points a game as a soph (Neumann went into the ABA after one year, so he didn't threaten Marvich's record) in 1970. Anybody putting Neumann on the list of the 10 greatest?

Now, I'm not saying that Maravich wasn't a great player, just that he wasn't a unique or all-time player. I think I can name two-dozen players who you could put in that same environemt, who would have posted equal or better numbers. I would argue that had Austin Rivers played three varsity seasons ar LSU in the late '60s, he would have averaged 40-plus points a game. I shudder to think what Oscar or Jerry West would have averaged ... or Michigan Jordan, who also wouldn't be in the conversation as one of the 5-10 greatest college players.

So if we're going to pick an all-time college team, I'd put Russell and Alcindor (his name at UCLA) in the post -- they could have easily played together -- the greatest defensive/rebounding and greatest offensive big men in history. I'd put Thompson on one wing. I'd think long and hard about Oscar, Jerry West and Bill Bradley (remember, we're talking college accomplishments) on the other wing. At point, I don't know ... maybe Ernie DiGregorio (again, we're only concerned with collegiate performance). Let me think about that one.

[turnandburn55]

So if we're going to pick an all-time college team, I'd put Russell and Alcindor (his name at UCLA) in the post -- they could have easily played together -- the greatest defensive/rebounding and greatest offensive big men in history. I'd put Thompson on one wing. I'd think long and hard about Oscar, Jerry West and Bill Bradley (remember, we're talking college accomplishments) on the other wing. At point, I don't know ... maybe Ernie DiGregorio (again, we're only concerned with collegiate performance). Let me think about that one.

I realize we've already gone big-man heavy, but I'd like to find a spot for Bill Walton... 3xplayer of the year, 2xnational champion (and it's hard to fault the dude for losing to another top-5 guy on the list in 2OT), and he of the 88-game win streak plus one of the greatest finals performances of all time... 21/22 for the field for 44 points.

[Newton_14]

I hear you. We just disagree on this one...No worries.

Yeah, no worries. All in the spirit of good debate. It's a fun exercise, as would coming up with a All-Time NCAA team would be. The shame of it all, is with the current landscape, there likely will be few future greats to bring into the conversation. Sad really.

For the All Time NCAA team, I would start with Alcindor, and David Thompon. Oly makes a good argument on Pistol Pete, but not sure I could leave him off the starting 5. If I did, he would have to be in my Top 10. Competition aside, the guy was a tremendous player.

[CajunDevil]

How can Bias not be in the final list of candidates? My five are David Thompson, Christian Laettner, Len Bias, Ralph Sampson and Bobby Hurley.

[dcdevil2009]

How can Bias not be in the final list of candidates? My five are David Thompson, Christian Laettner, Len Bias, Ralph Sampson and Bobby Hurley.

Perhaps I'm off base here because I wasn't around to see Bias play, but was he actually as amazing as people seem to remember or has his early death caused people to remember him as better than he was? I've got no doubt he was good, but didn't Grant Hill, Antawn Jamison, and even Tyler Hansbrough have equally impressive college careers?

[Indoor66]

Perhaps I'm off base here because I wasn't around to see Bias play, but was he actually as amazing as people seem to remember or has his early death caused people to remember him as better than he was? I've got no doubt he was good, but didn't Grant Hill, Antawn Jamison, and even Tyler Hansbrough have equally impressive college careers?

I think you have hit on something here. Some seem to have a cocain enhanced memory of Bias' career. He was very good but not among the all time greats, IMO.

[turnandburn55]

I think you have hit on something here. Some seem to have a cocain enhanced memory of Bias' career. He was very good but not among the all time greats, IMO.

Agreed... part of the reason why a fellow Maryland forward (Joe Smith) is frequently forgotten is precisely because he had such a pedestrian NBA career. Heck, even the dude selected right after Bias (Washburn) was also discussed as "the next big thing".

While I understand that Bias was a four-year player, unlike the others, but even as a senior, his team finished an anemic 6th in the ACC and petered out in the 2nd round. Compare that the 1994 Duke Grant Hills, for instance.

[slower]

Now, I'm not saying that Maravich wasn't a great player, just that he wasn't a unique or all-time player. I think I can name two-dozen players who you could put in that same environemt, who would have posted equal or better numbers. I would argue that had Austin Rivers played three varsity seasons ar LSU in the late '60s, he would have averaged 40-plus points a game. I shudder to think what Oscar or Jerry West would have averaged ... or Michigan Jordan, who also wouldn't be in the conversation as one of the 5-10 greatest college players.

At point, I don't know ... maybe Ernie DiGregorio (again, we're only concerned with collegiate performance). Let me think about that one.

Maravich wasn't unique? Afraid a lot of folks might take issue with that.

You wouldn't put Maravich on your all-time team, but you'd consider Ernie DiGregorio?

[slower]

Perhaps I'm off base here because I wasn't around to see Bias play...

Then you, my friend, missed seeing one of the most breathtaking players EVER to grace the ACC. Len Bias was a physical ANIMAL, who was also blessed with one of the most feathery jumpers you'll ever see.