Coach McNally resigns as head coach of Duke baseball team

[Dev11]

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

You have heard of Title IX, no?

[Duvall]

You have heard of Title IX, no?

That wouldn't cut against starting a softball program. But the funds would still have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure why Duke would want to cut funding from its very successful complement of nonrevenue programs to start a different nonrevenue program that would require a whole new set of facilities.

[hughgs]

That wouldn't cut against starting a softball program. But the funds would still have to come from somewhere, and I'm not sure why Duke would want to cut funding from its very successful complement of nonrevenue programs to start a different nonrevenue program that would require a whole new set of facilities.

I think the big question about a softball team would be facilities. We already have bad baseball facilities. Where would the softball field go? And if you can't afford to upgrade the existing baseball facilities how are you going to justify the expense of half-way decent softball facilities?

[sagegrouse]

Duke needs a softball team, no excuse not to have one when all you need is one good pitcher to dominate, Duke could win big next season if they started a program with the right coach. What's Duke's excuse for not having a team when there are great teams at schools like Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, UMD, GT, VT, NCSU, LA-Lafayette, Boston U, Syracuse, etc.?

While not a hijack, this paragraph is a detour over a very bumpy road. And, even worse, "no excuse not to have one" is clearly just plain wrong (I was tempted to use a stronger term). Others have pointed out that baseball is hamstrung by lack of resources and facilities. In fact, that is the subject of this thread. Adding a similar sport makes every aspect of the baseball problem even worse.

College athletics these days involves a series of compromises among conflicting objectives. Title IX is a big deal. Adding one woman's sport may result in dropping another. And then there's the question of resources. Eleven-plus scholarships aproaches a million dollars of costs. Coaches, facilities, operations, equipment add way more than that. I have, so far, listed beaucoup reasons not to have a woman's softball program. So your original sally, at least to me, makes no sense whatsoever.

sagegrouse

[DU82]

I think the big question about a softball team would be facilities. We already have bad baseball facilities. Where would the softball field go? And if you can't afford to upgrade the existing baseball facilities how are you going to justify the expense of half-way decent softball facilities?

The field itself was upgraded to an all-turf field two seasons ago. It's the rest of the facility, including dugouts, locker rooms (there are none), and the stands that are lacking.

[hughgs]

The field itself was upgraded to an all-turf field two seasons ago. It's the rest of the facility, including dugouts, locker rooms (there are none), and the stands that are lacking.

Yes, I know the field was upgraded. Coach offered my 4 year old the opportunity to run around it just as construction was finishing up (he declined). But, there are more to facilities than the field and the facilities are bad.

[miramar]

As tuition keeps increasing, it seems to be getting harder for private colleges to recruit top players since as a so-called equivalency sport, baseball teams have few scholarships that have to be divided among a lot of different players. Getting half a scholarship at State U means that families don't have to pay much to send Johnny to school, but the same half scholarship at private schools still means a major outlay.

It's no coincidence that among ACC teams, Florida State is still alive in the NCAAs (as is their rival Florida), while Miami is out and Jim Morris doesn't even know if he will be back next year. Considering that Miami hosted a regional with UCF, Stony Brook, and Missouri State and couldn't even win a game (while being outscored 22-4), I don't think anyone will be surprised if he's gone.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yes, I know the field was upgraded. Coach offered my 4 year old the opportunity to run around it just as construction was finishing up (he declined). But, there are more to facilities than the field and the facilities are bad.

And he "threw" devildeac and I off of the outfield one January night when we wandered onto the turf before the outfield fence was put back in place, as we walked back to my car after a basketball game and noticed that it was there and open. I believe I posted about that experience at the time...

[formerdukeathlete]

As tuition keeps increasing, it seems to be getting harder for private colleges to recruit top players since as a so-called equivalency sport, baseball teams have few scholarships that have to be divided among a lot of different players. Getting half a scholarship at State U means that families don't have to pay much to send Johnny to school, but the same half scholarship at private schools still means a major outlay.

It's no coincidence that among ACC teams, Florida State is still alive in the NCAAs (as is their rival Florida), while Miami is out and Jim Morris doesn't even know if he will be back next year. Considering that Miami hosted a regional with UCF, Stony Brook, and Missouri State and couldn't even win a game (while being outscored 22-4), I don't think anyone will be surprised if he's gone.

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

[roywhite]

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

Not an expert or insider on this question, but I think the answer is "yes, there can be a combination of a partial athletic scholarship and need-based financial aid".
That's the situation at some other schools I'm familiar with, so very likely to be the case with Duke.

Here's a link to information on the maximum NCAA-allowable scholarships by sport.

There's no guarantee Duke is at the maximum allowable for all of these sports; I'd guess not.

One interesting piece of info is that men's lacrosse is permitted 12.6 scholarships and baseball 11.7.
We've seen that Duke is very competitive (well, better than very competitive) in men's lacrosse despite going against some public universities. But we know that Duke has excellent coaching and competitive facilites for lacrosse. That suggests to me that coaching and facilities are big hurdles for the baseball program, likely bigger hurdles than scholarship aid packages.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Other cheap unproven coaches previously hired: Michael William Krzyzewski, Dan Brooks, Steven Orr Spurrier, Gail Goestenkors.

Also Tim Corbin. Although, he's not so inexpensive anymore. He was a Clemson assistant before making Vandy a recent baseball power. Thanks to Todd Turner for a good hire.

[hughgs]

And he "threw" devildeac and I off of the outfield one January night when we wandered onto the turf before the outfield fence was put back in place, as we walked back to my car after a basketball game and noticed that it was there and open. I believe I posted about that experience at the time...

You should've sucked up to him more . I used to always see him on campus and always said hi to him. Of course, having a mini-me as an escort helps.

[johnb]

...
One interesting piece of info is that men's lacrosse is permitted 12.6 scholarships and baseball 11.7...

The demographics for top-level lacrosse and top-level baseball may be different (I'm aware that not all lacrosse players are affluent, but I'd guess quite a few are prepared to pay part of the tuition to attend Duke).

I'm not all that enthused about bringing in more sports. Part of it is financial, but part of it is reserving another dozen spots in the freshman class for athletes. Of course, if my 2 year old grows up to be a great softball pitcher, my view may change.

Finally, being from Dallas myself, I was a little surprised to read the earlier question about why a coach would go to Duke from Dallas Baptist--seriously, Dallas Baptist and Duke would rarely be mentioned in the same breath on any topic that I can imagine. Nevertheless, I did look at their baseball facilities, and they're impressive...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

You should've sucked up to him more . I used to always see him on campus and always said hi to him. Of course, having a mini-me as an escort helps.

We were walking through the Gold lot towards Science drive when I noticed the fence was down and the field had new, bright green "Astro-turf" on it. We traipsed through ankle deep mud and onto the green turf, when an unseen voice boomed across the field "GET OFF THE FIELD!!!!"We skedaddled off the field as quickly as we could...

[dukebsbll14]

We were walking through the Gold lot towards Science drive when I noticed the fence was down and the field had new, bright green "Astro-turf" on it. We traipsed through ankle deep mud and onto the green turf, when an unseen voice boomed across the field "GET OFF THE FIELD!!!!"We skedaddled off the field as quickly as we could...

dude, don't mess with baseball coaches and their fields.

When we would do our fall workouts in high school, if the temperature fell below 60 degrees or if it had rained recently, we weren't allowed on the grass and had to use a another grass field. You also weren't allowed to toss bats on the grass, you had to roll them. If you did you would run laps. Had a great field though.

[DU82]

I have asked the question before regarding eligibility for financial aid in addition to partial athletic scholarship grants in the context of non-rev sports.

If someone is offered a 1/2 or 1/4 athletic scholarship also has demonstrated financial need over and above that amount (within the University's financial aid award guidelines), can they not be awarded financial aid grants above the scholarship amount, and that this aid is not considered athletic scholarship assistance within NCAA allotment limitations?

If this were the case, this would mean that someone at Rice or Vandy (top programs) on a partial baseball scholarship might be attending on a financial aid package which complements the athletic scholarship grant.

This would also mean that it would be incorrect to suggest that state schools have big, big advantages over a private school in a sport such as baseball.

Someone with current information, experience with financial aid and athletic scholarships in non rev, please respond. Thank you.

Based on what I saw at the Big East school where my nephew was an assistant baseball coach, the answer is yes, they can receive "normal" financial aid. Some of the players were working at basketball games on work-study (do they still call it that?) which is a standard financial aid package item.

I will see him this weekend, and if I get a chance, I'll ask him about scholarships (after asking him about the wedding plans, since I'll see him at his engagement party.)

[dukebsbll14]

Marcus Stroman selected by the Toronto Blue Jays with the 22nd pick in the MLB Draft.

[formerdukeathlete]

The demographics for top-level lacrosse and top-level baseball may be different (I'm aware that not all lacrosse players are affluent, but I'd guess quite a few are prepared to pay part of the tuition to attend Duke).

I'm not all that enthused about bringing in more sports. Part of it is financial, but part of it is reserving another dozen spots in the freshman class for athletes. Of course, if my 2 year old grows up to be a great softball pitcher, my view may change.

......

Re demographics, it may be the case that lacrosse prospects are from better-situated financially backgrounds as a general matter, though we have had Lacrosse players at Duke from single parent and non-professional family backgrounds. As financial aid is a broader swath these days, extending into middle income situations, perhaps all that is necessary at Duke to field competitive non-rev teams is offering the NCAA allotment in scholarships, and then offering financial aid packages which are competitive with our peer institutions. There will always be cases where a prospect may choose to save his or her parents money, who will pick a partial athletic scholarship to a state university, say in baseball, over a partial scholarship (with or without additional financial aid) to Duke.

Re the impact of offering additional varsity teams vis a vis Admissions and the general academic criteria of our undergrad student body, your concern is valid and one shared by faculty. At Harvard and some other Ivy schools, athletics-related admits approach 20% of the undergrad student body. This partly is why, with athletes comprising such a high percentage of the student body, that Ivies require that all athletes average within one standard deviation of the student body overall, academically. Comparing athletes with the student body excluding athletes, it's a bit more than 1 SD outside the mean, as athletes bring down the mean a bit.

With Softball at Duke, it would be more than 12 players attending Duke at any one time. Scholarships would be awarded on a partial basis in most cases and then you would have a certain number of preferred admits attending perhaps just on financial aid or paying freight.

I would think chances are that women's softball players recruited to Duke would be credible students for Duke, within on SD of the mean of the student body academically. I think Baseball tends to fill that bill as well.

Re Ivy admissions for student athletes, as Ivy schools share the same concerns academically as Duke, from the Daily Princetonian

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/12/01/27054/

'Deputy Dean of the College Peter Quimby said the determining factor for a student-athlete’s admission is whether his or her academic abilities are in line with those of the student body.

“Student-athletes at Princeton have to be within one standard deviation of the mean of the academic population as a whole,” Quimby said of the entire group. “In other words, the student-athlete has to look like the rest of the undergraduate population.” '

....

'One sport, however, has a unique set of standards: football.

In “Playing the Game,” his 2004 book on athletic recruiting in the Ivy League, Chris Lincoln described the Ivy League standards for football recruits. Given a maximum recruiting class of 30 players, recruits are divided into four Academic Index bands: At least eight players must fall into the top band, which ranges from a perfect 240 to one standard deviation below the average for admitted students. Twelve can fall into the second band, which goes down to two standard deviations below the mean. Eight players can fit in the third band, with scores as low as two-and-a-half standard deviations below the mean. Coaches can also recruit up to two students with even lower scores, but Lincoln pointed out that this is extremely rare.'

At an Ivy school, of 30 preferred Football admits each year, all may be within 1 SD of the mean, though 22 of the 30 may be more than one SD. But, it is my understanding that in baseball, lacrosse, softball at Princeton and Ivies in general most all student athletes are within 1 SD. Were that to be the case for a Softball squad at Duke, I would say, go ahead, at such time as we can afford it. Where we have gotten into trouble, that is with complaints from faculty, and off track, was with respect to the largest squad on campus, Football. Cutcliffe pushed the academics envelope quite far in offering and obtaining commitments from prospects whom other ACC schools would not recruit because they were not NCAA eligible at the time. Under these circumstances we may not afford a single additional admissions slot for another varsity sport at Duke. But, the good news re Baseball and possibly adding Softball at some point, is that what Cutcliffe was doing was absolutely unnecessary. Look to Stanford's and Northwestern's greater success in Football with high academic standards.

[dpslaw]

I'm with FDA! Given the dramatic decline in ACC honor roll selections under Cutcliffe--not to mention the huge drop-off in the graduation rate for football players--we need a change in recruiting strategy. We need more academic gems like Asack!

[formerdukeathlete]

I'm with FDA! Given the dramatic decline in ACC honor roll selections under Cutcliffe--not to mention the huge drop-off in the graduation rate for football players--we need a change in recruiting strategy. We need more academic gems like Asack!

x number of Duke commits under Cutcliffe decommitted because they were not NCAA eligible - they were unable to enroll at any NCAA D-1 program as scholarship athletes. Note attrition among Duke Football players under Cutcliffe who have had problems with the law. Self-reported academic data of Cutcliffe recruited players suggests a number have enrolled with below the cutoffs imposed on prior coaches. The first thing Cutcliffe did, as a condition of his accepting the job, was to push for no limits on academic exceptions. In his first couple of recruiting classes he did not screen in a fashion typical of academic FBS programs. We offered very few elite prospects who showed solid academics. None of this is necessary nor particularly helpful for Duke Athletics, overall. I do note in the last couple of recruiting classes that we are covering our bases in a way more typical of an academic FBS program, which is a positive trend. Whether our misfires out of the blocks are reflected in the team's overall academic performance, I think they have been. But, the net effect is offset by 20 plus invited walkons who basically by virtue of NCAA guidelines need to be within one SD of the mean of Duke students, in admissions criteria, academically, or else financial aid would count in the scholarship limits were they to see the field. Roof and prior coaches really did not have admissions slots for invited walkons. That we are allowing this now definitely is a positive for the Football Program. Whatever the total number of ahtletes on full or partial athletic scholarships, my guess is in the 270 range, whatever the number of additional athletes who have received some preference in Admissions - lets say add another 250, the numbers are substantial relative to the total undergraduate enrollment. Academic criteria of athletes is an important factor, to the faculty, re scholarship and the reputation of the school. Softball in my view likely would be a net positive to the academic criteria of athletes overall, and Duke Baseball I believe is mainstream academically.