MBB: Duke 83, St. John's 76 Post Game Thread

[Saratoga2]

Just before the half and then continuing through the second half, St John turned up the defensive pressure and were aggressive on offense as well. We seemed to be rattled by the intensity and got beat to loose balls and rebounds. Our shooting also went cold. It wasn't until the game got really close that I think coach K got their attention and we also started to play with intensity. We made a lot of silly mistakes caused by the pressure and we weren't able to get into the paint as easily. It's a win, but a disappointing one. Every team seems to have people who have their best games against us. It has to be our defense.

[roywhite]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

Yet the team is 18-3, tied for first place in the ACC, won the Maui Tournament, has played a tough schedule, and is ranked in the Top 10.

This IMO is a perfect example of how legitimate criticisms of this team's performance are sometimes made without the perspective of the overall record, and how some fans are spoiled by the past achievements of Duke teams.

[HDB]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Thinking back to Maui I really felt optimistic about this team's chances to develop into a very good team. It seems like since that point we've regressed. Not sure why this is happening. Good thing there is still the entire month of February to get better --- just wish I was seeing some signs that that was a possibility.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

I wouldn't be so hard on them. Sure the last 10 minutes were nail biting. St. John's had all the momentum and Harkless/Harrison seemed to be making everything, but what I've learned is that when you're on the road and you're losing by so much, you tend to lighten up because you have nothing to lose. Especially as freshmen, they just started playing basketball and started hitting shots; all of a sudden, we're the team that has all of the pressure on them. I still think this team has potential. The good thing is, we have these learning experiences, but along the way we get to 18-3. Not too shabby.

I don't know if were good enough this year to get to a Final Four, but if you took this crew next year minus Miles, we have a good shot. I think we need to develop Mike Gbinije. He just looks like a competitor and he can guard multiple positions. I want to see this kid get minutes before the season is done to get him a little more expereince going into next year.

[RoyalBlue08]

Yet the team is 18-3, tied for first place in the ACC, won the Maui Tournament, has played a tough schedule, and is ranked in the Top 10.

This IMO is a perfect example of how legitimate criticisms of this team's performance are sometimes made without the perspective of the overall record, and how some fans are spoiled by the past achievements of Duke teams.

I don't agree with a lot of the posters that think the are fundamental flaws in the make up our team and what they can achieve. I do think I have been spoiled by past Duke teams though. What I witnessed today was not Duke basketball.

[hq2]

they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

That's a little strong. Certainly, an upsettable team, but one that could sneak into the final
four too with the right bracket. They played O.K. today for about 30 minutes, then just sort
of hung on down the stretch. Nice ball movement in the first 30 minutes. However, going the
last 6 and a half minutes without a field goal won't get it done in the NCAAs., free throw
shooting regardless. Andre was O.K. from 3 point range, Mason played strong against a
less than imposing front line. D in the second half was clearly not that good.

[Kedsy]

But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

Hey, off-topic, but where'd you get your crystal ball? I'd love to get one, as long as it's not too expensive. Or do you use a ouija board? Chicken entrails?

In my opinion, Duke is a better team, right now, than all four of last year's Final Four teams. Even at tournament time, I don't think too many people expected any of those teams to get that far. So you never know what's going to happen, or at least I don't. Perhaps you do, which is why I'm asking about your future-viewing device.

But they keep blowing leads...

To my knowledge, the only game in which we've blown a lead was the Florida State game. And that lead was never bigger than 9 (and that only once, near the end of the first half; it reached 8 briefly in the middle of the 2nd half). They've let a few other leads dwindle, but they didn't "blow" any of those. Other than Florida State, they won them all.

In today's game, Coach K may not have been pleased with our effort in the last 10 minutes, but that wasn't when the lead dwindled. In a three minute stretch just before that (from 12:39 to 9:48), the lead dropped from 19 to 10, after that it bounced from a bit better than 10 to a bit worse than 10, until it ended with us winning by 7. That doesn't sound like "blowing a lead" to me.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

I wouldn't be so hard on them. Sure the last 10 minutes were nail biting. St. John's had all the momentum and Harkless/Harrison seemed to be making everything, but what I've learned is that when you're on the road and you're losing by so much, you tend to lighten up because you have nothing to lose. Especially as freshmen, they just started playing basketball and started hitting shots; all of a sudden, we're the team that has all of the pressure on them. I still think this team has potential. The good thing is, we have these learning experiences, but along the way we get to 18-3. Not too shabby.

I don't know if were good enough this year to get to a Final Four, but if you took this crew next year minus Miles, we have a good shot. I think we need to develop Mike Gbinije. He just looks like a competitor and he can guard multiple positions. I want to see this kid get minutes before the season is done to get him a little more expereince going into next year.

[throatybeard]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

Certainty. I was pretty certain Virginia Commonwealth wouldn't survive the first weekend last year. Jay Bilas, too.

[Saratoga2]

There are three guys on this team that appear to show up in every game. They may struggle or be off, but you can see a fire in them.

Mason Plumlee
Austin Rivers
Tyler Thornton

I salute those guys for bringing the energy. The crowd and the rest of the guys are just hit and miss this year so far. That more than anything has got to be frustrating for Coach K.

I agree with your 3 bringing it. On the other hand, I think Seth had a so-so game until the last couple of minutes, where he seemed to pick it up. Like coach K said, we didn't finish well around the basket. Miles and Ryan in particular had a lot of opportunities in close but couldn't finish those. There isn't a need for a shakeup, just a need for self realization of our players. They have to play with intensity and intelligence to be a special team.

[FerryFor50]

That is what's maddening about this team. Good enough to beat top 10 teams and lead in games by 20+ points. Bad enough to lose to Temple and give up those 20+ point leads.

[DBFAN]

Dont know how many of ya listened to the post game interview on the radio, but K said the team made more mistakes in the last 10 min than any other team he has ever had. I hope they don't let this kind of thing happen again. They just seem to lose focus so easily. Im sure they will get better at that

[weezie]

I can't remember hearing K that negative on the radio after a win...I have a feeling they are in for a tough week of practice.

Sometimes young teen-aged men act just that way, like teenagers. Their skulls are pretty thick. It looked as if they responded to K's tirades during the time outs for at least a few plays but then the dopey decisions began to add up again.

[arnie]

Do you have some kind of meter attached to your monitor that let's you know when a player has shown up for the game? I would like to get one of those, if you do.

I don't think every player physically shows you the fire within. I think that Seth is one of those guys who is there every game. Miles and Ryan, too.

Now the team defense isn't what I would hope it to be, but I am sure that Coach K is working hard for them to get it.

I don't think effort is the problem at all. We just don't match up defensively with a lot of teams. Kelly can't possibly keep up with quick forwards and we don't have another player that can. The group of guards simply aren't great defenders either. Mason, IMO, is by far our best defender.

We'll win games cause of our offense this year.

[NYBri]

We are spoiled, I'm afraid. We have had some amazing teams and amazing player step up.

This year's team is very talented, but there is no Nolan...no Scheyer...no face of the team...no heart of the team...no sense that there is a leader who refuses to lose.

That's not a complaint, just an observation and a potential reason we play without focus for long stretches.

I like a lot of the players on this squad, but I am having trouble getting a sense of its personality.

Lack of defense is a real problem and its going to be an issue big time come March.

[CLW]

the crowd was awful today

the team's effort/energy wasn't good either

the D once again got lit up for 47 in the 2nd half to the 180th best offense in the country

i'm starting to think at this point the team is what it is and very little will change the rest of the way

the scary part is (assuming MP2 and Rivers both bolt) we appear to be setup for the exact same team we have this year only with less talent

EDIT: K was/is really unhappy with the team's performance as well.

"To me, it was a loss today for me," "I didn't like today. And if my team doesn't like today, then we'll get better. If my team is OK about today, then we're going to fight a little bit, because I'm not going to change on this."

"We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that," "I hate saying that we did enough to win. I mean, that's not who I am and not who this program is. You don't do `enough to win.' We play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win. But that's the story. ... I'm not pleased with today one bit. One bit."

[davekay1971]

I get it, I really do. During that stretch in the middle 10 minutes of the second half, I was grumbling/growling/cussin.

Let's keep it in perpective. As noted previously, we're talking about a team that lost it's top 3 scorers (ppg, not total points in the season, given Kyrie's shortened season) from last season, and 2 of those losses were absolutely dominant senior leaders. And yet this team has managed an 18-3 record against the toughest schedule in the nation and remains solidly in the top 10. So, why are we so frustrated?

1) Past seasons - obviously there's the whole 1986-now standard of excellence thing which feeds into our expectations. More importantly, I believe, there was the amazing and unexpected 2010 natty, then the 2011 season which was a roller coaster with the top-o-the-world beginning, the crushing loss of Kyrie, the exciting ride to the ACC championship without Kyrie and the number 1 seed with all the hope that we'd work Kyrie in for a run to the title...15 months of wild basketball emotions. The 2011-12 Devils are not only trying to reload/rebuild, but they're doing so after 2 of the wildest years in Duke history. It's a very hard recent history for this team to live up to. The 1995 team had it rougher...but that's about it.

2) Mental lapses - ie: the middle 10 minutes of the 2nd half today. That's something we're not used to with Duke, but it's a reality with this team. It's been discussed time and time again on DBR and many of us are confused and frustrated by it. Is it the lack of a clear emotional leader? A fairly softspoken (or at least not a demonstrative) upperclass? One too many grandbabies for Coach K to bounce on his knee? Nate-o-penia? Whatever the cause, it's a trait of the team and I suspect as frustrating for the guys in the jerseys as it is for us.

3) Hype/expectation - Obviously our bigs are performing about as well as we could have hoped and I see relatively less frustration on DBR boards about the performance of our bigs compared to the frustration aimed at the guards. The complaints I read boil down to: "Dre is inconsistent. Thornton fouls too much. Rivers isn't the Second Coming of Kyrie. Curry can't dribble. None of them can defend. Silent G is the answer, or maybe Cook is. Etc." The article about Dre, with his frank thoughts about his own lack of consistency, was illuminating in that the young man clearly is as frustrated and confused by his tendency to disappear as we are. Basically, we've got some very good players on the perimeter, but 2 true PGs who are limited (one by lack of offensive game no matter how big his heart, the other by youth and injury), and we don't have a lock down on-the-ball defender, and our most talented perimeter player is absolutely one of our best players but, unlike Kyrie, plays like a freshman. Essentially, we all see flaws in our perimeter at both ends of the court, but, tying into point number 1, those flaws may be related to our own expectations after having 2 years of Nolan/Scheyer then Nolan/Irving, as well as our expectations and hopes given the hype of Rivers and the expected maturation/development of Curry and hoped for increase in consistency in Dawkins. Basically, we had the preseason number 1 backcourt in the nation, and that feeds into our perception of how these talented but imperfect kids are performing.

4) Defense - we're Duke, we're used to cheering on a team that consistently plays high-pressure, intense defense. These guys don't. There's a misperception that defense is all about heart and effort. Bull. Most teams that take the court against us want it as badly as we do, but in most years our defense is better than our opponent's. A lot of defense is system, execution, and talent...along with heart, focus, and effort. Our perimeter defense is suffering, and we can argue about which factors are leading to it, but suffice it to say that we, the fans, aren't used to it. And, I believe, we get more frustrated than we probably should because WE believe it's just a matter of the guys trying harder.

In short, I think there's a high level of frustration with this team because of a combination of true flaws we're not used to (lapses in concentration, and poor perimeter defense) and perceptions that we are bringing to the table.

In my view this is a good team. I think their record backs it up. It's also a team that struggles on defense and struggles to play a consistent 40 minutes of basketball. I'd caution, however, against writing them off as doomed to fail in the first weekend of the tournament. First of all this team, today, could very easily make a run in the NCAAT. Secondly, there are a lot of games between now and the post-season, and the team may improve on some of these flaws. Even if they don't, however, I think we should always take that moment to reflect inwardly when we get frustrated and ask, how much of my frustration is coming from what these guys are doing on the court, and how much is coming from what I want/expect them to do?

As for today's game, it's another learning opportunity. The tape of the 2nd 10 minutes of the first half should show our guys how well they are capable of playing. The tape of minutes 15-end of the 2nd half should show them what happens when they lose their focus, even against an obviously inferior opponent.

[Kedsy]

Mason, IMO, is by far our best defender.

IMO, Mason isn't even the best defender in his own family.

[dukereport]

This team is definitely still trying to figure out who they are, coaches included. One game Andre is a bum, then the next he's dropping 20. Same can be said about Curry and the Plumlee's. Austin has to learn when to take over and when to make the extra pass. Defensively, we are slow-footed at most positions and that isn't going to change. That doesn't mean we can't play good team defense, but they are going to have to fight harder than they are now. With that said, we are no where near our ceiling, so I look to forward to seeing there growth for this rest of this season.

[Kedsy]

It's worth noting that on this weekend, two years ago, we got crushed by Georgetown. A lot of people said we'd be knocked out of the tournament in the first weekend. They weren't right.