A Call to Arms to My Fellow Crazies

[Dev11]

I think you're making one of the most important points in this discussion, Ima.

Look at the changes in Cameron over the past 40 years or so and consider how they've influenced fan participation.... significant reduction in number of seats for undergrads, game breaks scripted by TV timeouts and commercials, booming piped in music and lots of big video presentations (people including the players are distracted by those).

Speaking as one who began my time in Cameron as a young child, this process of evolution feels as if the more we upgrade to new technology and keeping up with trends in other basketball facilities, the more we lose from the quality of fan participation that developed with the program. Splashy technology is no substitute for the real live fan.

I'm not a big fan of this thread since I don't care much where the enthusiasm comes from, etc, but I do endorse the idea that the video board and recorded music really detract from the experience. However, the old LED scoreboard made us seem outdated, which in turn hurts in recruiting, unfortunately. I want to say it was Patrick Patterson, though it could have been another recruit a few years back (Greg Monroe, maybe?) who actually pointed out that Cameron seems like a little old gym, and not as exciting as Rupp or some other big and new facility.

Watching the video board to see if you get on it for a few seconds is such a stupid activity, unless you're a really little kid. I will say, though, that the intro videos are pretty cool. Regarding the music, the band is perfectly capable of filling the gym with sound, and its music comes out much more clearly than the recorded music coming through the very old PA system.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I'm not a big fan of this thread since I don't care much where the enthusiasm comes from, etc, but I do endorse the idea that the video board and recorded music really detract from the experience. However, the old LED scoreboard made us seem outdated, which in turn hurts in recruiting, unfortunately. I want to say it was Patrick Patterson, though it could have been another recruit a few years back (Greg Monroe, maybe?) who actually pointed out that Cameron seems like a little old gym, and not as exciting as Rupp or some other big and new facility.

Watching the video board to see if you get on it for a few seconds is such a stupid activity, unless you're a really little kid. I will say, though, that the intro videos are pretty cool. Regarding the music, the band is perfectly capable of filling the gym with sound, and its music comes out much more clearly than the recorded music coming through the very old PA system.

A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

[MulletMan]

A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

Excuse me... but the graduate students have earned those seats downstairs. And frankly, they got more seats because they fill them... every single game.

The major factor in student participation is, as Native points out in his blog post, the fact that there are fewer basketball fans in the student body and more and more people mugging for the TV and jumbotron cameras.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Excuse me... but the graduate students have earned those seats downstairs. And frankly, they got more seats because they fill them... every single game.

The major factor in student participation is, as Native points out in his blog post, the fact that there are fewer basketball fans in the student body and more and more people mugging for the TV and jumbotron cameras.

Please understand that I wasn't making a judgment or complaining, just describing the situation years ago as a backdrop to the evolution to the current day. Many factors influence who's there and how they participate to support the team.

[dukeENG2003]

Sadly, the undergrads have failed to fill their section for a TON of games this year, which is the reasoning behind the GA tickets being sold to so many games. Even with GA tickets, grad students have still backfilled their section for a couple of games.

[devil84]

FWIW The Crazies and fans are not completely to blame. All the "showbiz" glitz and constant booming of canned music has taken Cameron away from us. The students have been systematically and purposefully shoved into oblivion. Somebody should tell K he can't have it both ways.

I agree with this! The pregame music and videos (are there really only three popular pieces of music?) are SO loud that there is no hope of cheering over them. Heck, it's nearly impossible to talk to the person next to you without loudly speaking directly into their ear. Most of those loud songs have no ability for people to clap or cheer along.

The videos they show are painfully loud, which prompted my children, a college junior and a grad student, to download decibel meters on their smart phones a couple games ago wondering if it's dangerously loud (the decibel meters on smart phones don't work well enough). My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through. Since my college-age kids are complaining, you can't say that it's only the "old people who don't understand what today's kids like." And for the player intro video, there's a tragic flaw in that there is no distinct beat or lyrics to sustain cheering. The Crazies make plenty of noise through the first several seconds, but they quickly quiet down for another 20-30 seconds until the subtitles appear and finally give them something to cheer about. There should NEVER be a time when the Crazies feel like standing still! Most of my section tends to groan when it starts and a quick look around notes a number of people covering their ears due to the painfully loud volume. There's a simple fix: switch to music with a beat to get everyone clapping, ease off the volume and bass so it's not distorted, and shorten it. Even better would be to let the pep band provide the music; it may mean purchasing some new, current music, or even have something commissioned that packs the same energy as the NBA-style intros.

And I hope I *NEVER* see that artificial Noise Meter on the video board in Cameron again. Each time they used it, the crowd quieted noticeably. Perhaps we felt a bit insulted that we needed to increase our noise! This isn't Lawrence Joel, the RBC Center, or any other large, impersonal stadium that needs to encourage the thin crowd to cheer.

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.

I do think that the newfangled NBAification of Cameron with regard to what emanates from the sound system is in large part responsible for the dampening of the Crazies' collective spirit. They spend an hour pre-game listening to the same three songs played over and over again while watching various videos, unable to either cheer along or cheer over the blaring noise (yes, noise -- it's too distorted to be music!). The Crazies should be warming up and heckling the opponents! Give the soundtrack back to the Crazies and the pep band!

[mkline09]

I agree with this! The pregame music and videos (are there really only three popular pieces of music?) are SO loud that there is no hope of cheering over them. Heck, it's nearly impossible to talk to the person next to you without loudly speaking directly into their ear. Most of those loud songs have no ability for people to clap or cheer along.

The videos they show are painfully loud, which prompted my children, a college junior and a grad student, to download decibel meters on their smart phones a couple games ago wondering if it's dangerously loud (the decibel meters on smart phones don't work well enough). My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through. Since my college-age kids are complaining, you can't say that it's only the "old people who don't understand what today's kids like." And for the player intro video, there's a tragic flaw in that there is no distinct beat or lyrics to sustain cheering. The Crazies make plenty of noise through the first several seconds, but they quickly quiet down for another 20-30 seconds until the subtitles appear and finally give them something to cheer about. There should NEVER be a time when the Crazies feel like standing still! Most of my section tends to groan when it starts and a quick look around notes a number of people covering their ears due to the painfully loud volume. There's a simple fix: switch to music with a beat to get everyone clapping, ease off the volume and bass so it's not distorted, and shorten it. Even better would be to let the pep band provide the music; it may mean purchasing some new, current music, or even have something commissioned that packs the same energy as the NBA-style intros.

And I hope I *NEVER* see that artificial Noise Meter on the video board in Cameron again. Each time they used it, the crowd quieted noticeably. Perhaps we felt a bit insulted that we needed to increase our noise! This isn't Lawrence Joel, the RBC Center, or any other large, impersonal stadium that needs to encourage the thin crowd to cheer.

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.

I do think that the newfangled NBAification of Cameron with regard to what emanates from the sound system is in large part responsible for the dampening of the Crazies' collective spirit. They spend an hour pre-game listening to the same three songs played over and over again while watching various videos, unable to either cheer along or cheer over the blaring noise (yes, noise -- it's too distorted to be music!). The Crazies should be warming up and heckling the opponents! Give the soundtrack back to the Crazies and the pep band!

Great posts and great observations. I can't help but wonder if the NBAification of Cameron is a product of recruiting. With Krzyzewski going after more one and done type kids as he has altered his recruiting approach, has the program been forced to go the loud an gawdy route. Kids now a days want there name in lights, the videos, the music (or what is passed off as music these days). I'm only 33 and I don't like the loud atmosphere even in pregame. I wouldn't mind seeing a scaled down pregame and ingame and I think that is a common feeling. But I can't help but wondering if the desires of the kids is outweighing the desires of the fans. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily but just food for thought. It seems like the "fireworks" is geared toward the players and recruits.

[hurleyfor3]

Totally agree with you. Not saying it's okay to have empty bleachers - not even in the corner. But I guarantee that even during that amazing run from 90 to 94 that there were more a than a few ACC games where corners were not close to full. I was there for every game. Just stating a fact.

I was a year ahead of you. While I certainly recall games when the student section wasn't full, I doubt there were ever more than about 200 empty seats at any of the games I attended (this is roughly five students wide and the entire section deep in each corner), at a maximum. This was at a time when more of the bleachers was given to undergrads and when the undergrad enrollment was a good bit smaller than today, of course. Also, note the *extreme* corners can't be occupied because the bleachers go under the 45° angle of the upper deck -- this is maybe 10-15 seats in each corner.

More often I would get shut out of games. At least once I got in line three hours before tipoff, and another time four hours, and didn't get in. And it wasn't against unc.

[dukeENG2003]

My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through.

This is more a function of the terrible acoustics of Cameron than of the sounds system. I recall seeing a concert in there once, and it was almost unberably bad.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A little about me:

'03-'07: Duke undergrad (and hardcore fan)
'11-'13: Duke grad student (and still a hardcore fan)

With that said, I was impressed with the turnout to FSU by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side). But there weren't in unison. Something has gone wrong because few students - especially the grad students - have no idea what the chants were. They didn't do the dances, they didn't do the singing (or shouting). The only thing they did was the free throw antics, and that's because a monkey can follow those moves. IMO, more needs to be done to get everyone together on the same page.

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant. These are Duke students. Support them like you would the basketball team. Every year, there is more pressure than ever for academics and students prioritize them (as they should). Unfortunately, Duke basketball will suffer because of this. It's the nature of being a top 10 school academically.

[AZLA]

a little about me:

'03-'07: Duke undergrad (and hardcore fan)
'11-'13: Duke grad student (and still a hardcore fan)

with that said, i was impressed with the turnout to fsu by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side). But there weren't in unison. Something has gone wrong because few students - especially the grad students - have no idea what the chants were. They didn't do the dances, they didn't do the singing (or shouting). The only thing they did was the free throw antics, and that's because a monkey can follow those moves. Imo, more needs to be done to get everyone together on the same page.

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant. These are duke students. Support them like you would the basketball team. Every year, there is more pressure than ever for academics and students prioritize them (as they should). Unfortunately, duke basketball will suffer because of this. It's the nature of being a top 10 school academically.

ignorant? Kids these days are soft! Duke was academically ranked top 3 in the early nineties and those crazies would run circles around today's crazies. Quit facebooking and drinking your foamy coffee drinks, rub some dirt in them wounds, get into cameron and kick some butt. No excuses! . Pick it up before we start referring to you as the cameron mildly insane.

[hurleyfor3]

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant.

In the early 1990s we called ourselves media sluts semi-ironically. As we entered Cameron the students who took seats opposite the benches were "media sluts" when there were better seats available behind the benches. We also used the term whenever a small group of fans would get on teevee, often going into or coming out of a commercial, and ham it up.

[airowe]

Sadly, the undergrads have failed to fill their section for a TON of games this year, which is the reasoning behind the GA tickets being sold to so many games. Even with GA tickets, grad students have still backfilled their section for a couple of games.

Yep, this year's average attendance is 650(!) for undergrads. There's room for 1200. Sad.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low...-student-seats

And what is up with this? They totally play canned music during timeouts.

“Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions,” Forman said. “We try to stay away from that.”

[Bluedog]

I think with Greek rush finally dwindling down and how events were particularly crammed in there at the beginning of the semester (fraternity rush shorter this year), attendance should hopefully improve considerably for the rest of the semester.

[airowe]

Yep, this year's average attendance is 650(!) for undergrads. There's room for 1200. Sad.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low...-student-seats

And what is up with this? They totally play canned music during timeouts.

After speaking with the appropriate parties, I'd like to retract my statement that canned music is played during timeouts. Evidently, I was mistaken. I do feel better now that efforts are being made to correct the situation as well.

[Lid]

With that said, I was impressed with the turnout to FSU by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side).

They were squished together because so many GA tickets were sold. Previous to the general sales, the ends of the bleachers were sparsely populated all year.

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant.

I'm missing your reasoning here. The crowd spends an observable, and large, amount of time standing around AND TEXTING, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, PUT AWAY YOUR PHONES. Per the numbers cited in this thread, low numbers of undergrads are attending games. During timeouts or stoppages, you can nearly always tell where the camera is pointed by seeing what small segment of the bleacher denizens are cheering. You may not have been in Cameron when these things weren't happening, but just fyi, it wasn't always like that. I don't see how noting these changes makes one "ignorant." Nostalgic, sure. Boring, quite possibly. But ignorant? You lost me.

I think there have been a lot of good points made in this thread about why Cameron has lost some of its edge -- over-reliance on pro-style theatrics, complacency, a desire by Coach K to both have a loud arena and also tell the students what they can and can't do, and, frankly, probably a decrease in the average undergrad drunkenness.

At the end of the day, all I know is that when everyone in there is loud, it's the most exciting place in the world.

[feldspar]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but CBS Sportsline has picked up on the Chronicle story:

Cameron Lazies

Pretty sad.

[Duvall]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but CBS Sportsline has picked up on the Chronicle story:

Cameron Lazies

Pretty sad.

Yeah, that *is* sad. You would think CBS Sports would have real stories to cover, but I guess not.

[feldspar]

Yeah, that *is* sad. You would think CBS Sports would have real stories to cover, but I guess not.

In fairness, it was just technically a blog post. Probably took the writer all of 15 minutes to put together.

Second, it is newsworthy. We have one of the most, if not THE most, famous student fans in the entire country. The fact that they're having a lot of trouble getting butts in seats is newsworthy.

[loran16]

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.

Normally I'd agree with the bolded statement, but we kind of have objective evidence (the chronicle article) that student attendance is way down at the moment. Meanwhile, the expectation of winning HASN'T BEEN DIFFERENT FOR OVER TEN YEARS NOW. And this problem wasn't noted in the early 2000s, or even more recently.

I'm from the Class of 09, and I remember my Frosh year having the best attendance, sophomore year (22-11 season 06-07) having WAY low attendance (People who walked up to Cameron for Carolina on the NIGHT OF THE CAROLINA GAME got INTO the game.), where it had a bounce the next two years, but still not to the 05-06 season level. Even so, the sophomore year season attendance was unacceptable (bloody fair weather fans), and I wouldn't have called it this bad as this season (though I'd like some data on this).

A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

Baloney. Grad students have been there for a while now, and attendance was fine. The problem is that undergrads aren't even filling the 1200 seats they have! That's unacceptable.

They were squished together because so many GA tickets were sold. Previous to the general sales, the ends of the bleachers were sparsely populated all year.


I'm missing your reasoning here. The crowd spends an observable, and large, amount of time standing around AND TEXTING, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, PUT AWAY YOUR PHONES. Per the numbers cited in this thread, low numbers of undergrads are attending games. During timeouts or stoppages, you can nearly always tell where the camera is pointed by seeing what small segment of the bleacher denizens are cheering. You may not have been in Cameron when these things weren't happening, but just fyi, it wasn't always like that. I don't see how noting these changes makes one "ignorant." Nostalgic, sure. Boring, quite possibly. But ignorant? You lost me.

I think there have been a lot of good points made in this thread about why Cameron has lost some of its edge -- over-reliance on pro-style theatrics, complacency, a desire by Coach K to both have a loud arena and also tell the students what they can and can't do, and, frankly, probably a decrease in the average undergrad drunkenness.

Perhaps we could add to Cameron a system that would kill phone service inside the stadium?