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  1. #1
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    Possession by Possession Breakdown of our Defense: Washington

    I did this after the Ohio State game and some guys thought it was somewhat interesting, so I've done it again for the Washington game. If you guys continue to find it useful I’ll try to do it periodically but can’t do it for every game – too time consuming – especially as the games are played more frequently beginning in January. If nobody cares about it, then I won’t bother!

    I've taken the whole game and broken down each defensive possession, this time whether or not it resulted in a Washington basket, in an attempt to get some real data on who is defending well and who poorly, and in what situations. Again, I acknowledge the inherent limitations of my "methods," including but not limited to the fact that team defense is a key part of what Duke does defensively and that is very difficult to quantify; that sometimes nobody is at fault on a particular play; sometimes the opponent just makes a good play or a lucky play; and many others. Of course a ton of possessions occur where a given player is not particularly involved defensively, or does nothing particularly positive or negative, so I don't note anything for that player for that possession. For example, many times a light screen is set by the opponent far outside, and, say, Tyler and Seth switch. I’m not counting that as a positive defensive play by either of them, because it was not in the context of the opponent forcing the action, the guys having to adjust and make quick decisions under pressure to protect the lane or the basket or prevent an open shot, etc. A lot of times guys move here or there, take different actions, and there’s nothing particularly positive or negative about it, so I don’t count those as anything.

    I also know this is only one game, so it may be unwise to draw any particular conclusions from it.

    I note anything that I saw upon replaying the game, and going back and forth over some plays over and over, anything that appeared to me to be positive - like solid ball pressure, a good hedge, good ball denial, good hands -- as well as the negative, like handling a screen/roll poorly, not closing out a shooter, losing your man in a 1 on 1 situation, not staying in front of your man, and more. That last one, staying in front of one’s man, has been an area of concern for many posters on this board. I abbreviate it in this thread as a “SIF” (for Stay in Front.) Sorry bout that one.

    At the end, I will summarize what I found and try to (crudely, I admit) quantify it. I can tell you up front that (if you couldn’t tell from a more casual watch) a close review of the game reveals that this was a pretty good defensive performance by the Devils as a whole.

    I've also developed some opinions about Tyler Thornton's performance at the offensive end, and wanted to try to see if my perceptions were backed up by a more detailed review of at least this game. I think I'll create another thread for that.

    OK, as for the defense, here goes.

    First half:

    Time 1922: Thornton sticks his nose in as UW goes for defensive board, results in ball going off UW and back to us. Good defensive hustle play in the backcourt.

    1852: Mason blocks 2 consecutive shots underneath. Tyler good help after the first block, bothered UW player into making weak second shot, making Mason's second block a lot easier.

    1806: Thornton good wing pressure but he's too small to prevent easy entry pass

    1756: 1 on 1 post, Austin challenges well, Mason comes over to provide good help and challenge

    1734: Seth good pressure vs. UW mini-break, contributes to bad UW pass

    1707: Rivers good SIF, fights through screen; Mason good hedge

    1702: Ryan good challenge outside J

    1659: Seth good help after UW offensive board, knocks it out of bounds. Good hustle play.

    1654: Thornton knocked it out off UW offensive rebounder's hands, to Duke.

    1634: Thornton loses his man 1-on-1 in halfcourt, leads to missed gimme by UW. Pick & roll - Mason switches onto Wroten - foul. Good play by Wroten.

    1543: Austin good SIF vs. 1-on-1 move

    1503: Miles great recovery from screen/roll, gets back into the lane, knocks entry pass away, should've been a turnover for us.

    1447: Miles good battling for position in post, then good help on pick & roll, leads to turnover

    1420: Wroten overpowers Rivers 1-on-1 to the hoop.

    1315: Solid outside screen takes out Seth, Wroten splits past Mason; hoop. Good play by Wroten. Kid is a beast. Nobody’s “fault” here.

    1238: Mason good help/hedge on hi screen/roll; Seth recovers, reaches in and knocks ball loose.

    1217: Kelly, after switch, moves his feet to keep smaller man in front, but then loses Gant for easy J.

    1200: Tyler draws offensive foul, pushing off outside, from Wroten.

    1120: Miles good help on man coming off screen, forces pass back outside; then good close-out on another outside shooter.

    1105: Tyler reaches in in backcourt as UW beginning its break; misses.

    1056: Tyler good hustle to knock pass out of bounds in corner; good instincts.

    1054: Tyler good pressure/bothering/disrupting flow of UW setting up its offense.

    1050: Andre slow around screen leads to easy corner J that UW just airballed somehow.

    1026: Miles, on switch, doesn't go for shot fake, stands ground strong.

    1022: Austin good 1-on-1 SIF/pressure

    1021: Miles a little lost/lazy outside on screen/roll, leads to 3 by Wroten.

    956: Thornton beaten 1-on-1 off dribble; fouls.

    935: Seth/Miles good aggressive double team as part of halfcourt pressure.

    930: Seth good 1-on-1 SIF.

    923: good UW screen/curl move beats Rivers - good play by UW.

    859: Seth gets blown by on 1-on-1 to the hoop.

    853: Thornton good reach-in from behind after trailing play into the lane; leads to scramble/jump ball. Good hustle - Tyler hits the floor.

    822: Austin gets screened on out-of-bounds play, Mason doesn't react. Missed J.

    759: Andre gets blown by in secondary break by Ross. Misses dunk.

    738: Good interior passing by UW - we foul.

    707: Good deep entry allowed by Miles playing too far under. UW missed an easy one here.

    633: Tyler good SIF vs. pick/roll.

    553: Tyler takes charge from Wroten on the break.

    523: Tyler beaten to the hoop by Wroten, who misses the chippie.

    452: Tyler good outside pressure. Miles good help for Tyler on the drive, causes a kickout. Then good challenge by Miles on the outside J.

    359 Andre late/lazy through a screen. Wilcox nails the 3.

    307: Tyler good fighting through screen, good contest on the J.

    305: Mason misses blockout, offensive board for UW.

    258: Andre trails over the screen, Ross gets into the lane; hoop. Nice play by UW.

    228: Cook good pressure on outside, but then Gaddy makes move, gets enough separation for the J, which Quinn does contest. Good.

    205: Ross strong individual move; Cook fouls him on 1-on-1 drive.

    146: Pick/roll between Quinn and Mason's men - decent recovery by Quinn on roll but Ndiaye makes the play anyway, then several offensive boards and tips that are blown, Mason can't time his jump properly, finally ends up with a UW hoop.

    105: Andre gets shot faked into the air; Wilcox hits the J.

    027: Mason good outside pressure leads to steal.

    012: Miles good hustle/transition D, then tips ball away from behind while chasing the play

    009: Gbinije hustles on above loose ball, gets it to a jump ball. Turnover for us.

    Halftime.

    1927 Ryan good deny inside on the post

    1919 Tyler beaten 1-on-1 outside by Gaddy’s crossover, leads to dunk when Ryan helps

    1857 Ryan great fight around UW’s posting big man to intercept the entry pass

    1827 Tyler good challenge of a pass in the backcourt; just being pesky

    1817 Austin beaten around a screen, Ryan helps and blocks the shot on the drive

    1813 Tyler loses his man around a screen on an inbounds play; bucket. Good play by Wilcox.

    1747 Seth good denial on the wing.

    1729 Ross beats Austin 1-on-1, goes to the hoop; bucket. Great move.

    1710 UW on the break, Gaddy to the hoop, Thornton fouls him as he’s being driven by.

    1708 Thornton fouls again off the inbounds play, this one an unnecessary hold 30’ from the hoop

    1708 Good team pressure/denial on the inbounds; leads to bad pass and a Mason steal.

    1653 Andre very good outside denial, pushed the receiver of the pass out to 40’ to catch

    1650 Tyler good help for Andre on the drive, forces a kickout, then recovers well back to his own man

    1648 Miles good help base as Thornton driven on, forces the kickout. Leads to Ross’s jumper but UW just had good ball movement here and deserves credit.

    1559 Good team D forces tough jumper; we’re in good position for the board but Andre fumbles it, UW picks it up, Tyler fouls big man Gant on his lay-in for the and-one. This was an obvious push in the back, unlikely to stop Gant, and was Ty’s 4th foul, his third in the last 1:11 of game clock.

    1537 Rivers good 1-on-1 vs Gaddy, good SIF

    1532 Curry good SIF vs Wilcox, who walks

    1403 Wroten right past Seth on a drive; bad SIF, but Miles great help at the rim and gets the block

    1332 Ryan great outside pressure then blocks Wilcox’s J from 22’ away

    1310 We go with ¾ court zone pressure, they break it, Mason is too passive at the back end. Easy runner in the lane by Wilcox.

    1247 Defensive transition: mini break by UW. Mason loafs back, beaten down the court by his man, who catches in stride in the lane on the secondary break; layup attempt; foul on Ryan but this was Mason’s bad.

    1221 Screen/roll, Miles good hedge but fouls. Not counting this “against” him.

    1123 Mason helps Miles on the drive. Good help but Wilcox makes a good shot over him.

    1047 Seth good ball pressure, forcing UW offense to initiate far out.

    1043 Rivers good physicality 1-on-1.

    1036 Miles can’t get around screen; Wilcox nails a 3.

    959 Miles great help on a drive, gets shot block.

    902 Kelly beaten 1-on-1 by Wilcox but Miles steps up and gets another shot block. He’s been a man all day on D.

    749 Kelly good challenge on an outside J on a 1-on-1 move.

    657 Mason good help for Ryan at the baseline; UW makes the shot anyway

    609 Ross bangs a 3 over Mason on an outside 1-on-1 move

    538 Tyler good ball denial on the wing

    447 Poor team D – nobody guards Wroten on the catch, nobody steps up on his drive.

    355 Miles good reach-in form behind as UW begins their break; knocks ball loose

    343 Seth good SIF on Gaddy

    333 Wroten takes Tyler to the hoop 1-on-1 and just overpowers him

    248 Austin can’t stop Wroten’s 1-on-1 drive either. Fouls him out.

    220 Gaddy drives past Dawkins 1-on-1, leads to dish and foul. That’s 3 in the last minute plus.

    207 Quinn good ball pressure outside

    159 Wilcox drives past Kelly 1-on-1 into the lane and to the hoop; bucket. Josh’s attempt at taking the charge is weak.

    128 Wroten goes around Tyler and Mason, makes a circus wraparound shot.

    058 Gaddy gets around Quinn, takes him to the hoop 1-on-1; bucket. Bad SIF.

    053 Miles good hustling back to tip a long pass away and off UW; turnover for us.

    035 Andre good help on our scrambling defense; Wilcox hits a good shot anyway.




    So: here’s the way I summarize this, by player:

    Rivers:
    Good 1-on-1 challenge in post 1 occurrence
    Good SIF 4 occurrences
    Fight through screen 1 occurence
    Overpowered and/or beaten 1-on-1 drive to hoop 3 occurrences

    Thornton:
    Aggressive hustle play 2 occurrences
    General peskiness and disruption/good hands 5
    Good wing pressure/denial 3
    Too small and/or overpowered to the hoop 2
    Beaten or loses man on 1-on-1 4
    Loses man around screen 1
    Draws charge 2
    Good SIF vs pick/roll 2
    Good contest vs. jumper 1
    Unnecessary/bad foul 2
    Good help and recover 1

    Curry:
    General peskiness and disruption/good hands 3
    Good recovery on screen/roll; knocks ball away 1
    Part of aggressive doubleteam 1
    Good 1-on-1 SIF 3
    Gets blown by 1-on-1 to hoop; poor SIF 2
    Good denial on the wing 1

    Mason:
    Good help teammate in post/challenge 3
    Blocked shots 2
    Good hedge 2
    Failure to get out on shooter after guard screened off 1
    Missed blockout 1
    Good ball pressure on outside 1
    Passive at back end of zone press 1
    Transition: Loafs back on defense, beaten down court for layup 1

    Kelly:
    Good challenge to jump shooter 2
    Good SIF 1
    Lose sight/concentration of man 1
    Good deny inside post man 2
    Good help in lane vs. drive against beaten teammate 1
    Blocked shot 2
    Good outside pressure 1
    Beaten to the hoop 1-on-1; bad SIF 2

    Miles:
    Hedge/recovery/knock ball away 1
    Strong fight for inside position 1
    Good help on screen/roll 2
    Good closeout/challenge on outside shooter 2
    Stands ground vs good shot fake 1
    Lost/lazy on screen/roll 1
    Failure to get around screen 1
    Part of aggressive doubleteam 1
    Allows too-deep post position 1
    Good help in lane or on baseline vs. drive against beaten teammate 5
    Hustle back/tip ball in transition 3
    Blocked shot at the rim 3

    Dawkins:
    Slow getting around screen 2
    Failure to SIF 2
    Goes for shot fake, leaves feet 1
    Good wing denial 1
    Good help/recovery 1

    Cook:
    Good ball pressure on outside 2
    Contest outside J 1
    Beaten to the hoop 1-on-1; bad SIF 1

    Hairston:
    Weak/late attempt to take charge 1

    Gbinije:
    Hustle on loose ball 1


    OK so what do those numbers tell us, at least about this game? It’s a very crude way to evaluate performance, just by counting and cataloguing the positive and negative defensive plays. But to me, it at least suggests the following:

    Austin did a pretty good job of manning up his guy in this game. He had 5 instances where he was being directly challenged by his guy, off the dribble, and kept him in front nicely, including once where he fought through a screen well. On 3 other occasions he was beaten into the lane by his guy.

    Tyler Thornton is involved a lot defensively. He is pesky, he bothers, he puts his nose in there, and he hustles. He can move his feet. He pressures the ball and can deny on the wing. He can draw charges, usually by bothering his opponent to the point that he lashes out and Tyler is tough enough to stand in there and take it. But he also gets beaten an awful lot. He was beaten or lost his man on the way to the hoop six times in 30 minutes of action. He was simply outsized and/or overpowered twice. He made two dumb fouls, including his 4th, which kept him out of action for a good chunk of the second half. We definitely get a mixed bag from Tyler defensively.

    Seth may not be getting enough credit for the defense he plays, if this game is typical of his performance. He is disruptive, and actually moved his feet pretty well against dribble penetration. He got beaten a couple of times too, but he generally was pretty aggressive and made a lot more positive plays on defense than he did negative ones.

    Mason’s defensive game was hot and cold. He can be really good in help situations, hedging well, challenging shots inside and out, including actually blocking them. He had some trouble in non-halfcourt situations, including in transition and handling his responsibilities at the back of the press.


    Ryan, true to his reputation, made very few mistakes. He has proven to be a versatile defender, challenging jump shooters while also denying post players their position, and helping teammates in the lane. Sure, he was beaten to the hoop a couple of times when he couldn’t get the puppies moving quite fast enough, but overall, his defense was pretty solid.

    The defensive star of the game, IMO, was clearly Miles Plumlee. Dude came to play. He fought hard inside; he challenged jump shooters; he played smart on doubleteam situations; he provided great help for beaten teammates all day long; he protected the rim with at least 3 blocked shots. But my favorite part of watching him was the hustle he showed when we were in transition defense. On three separate occasions he hustled his butt off and was able to make up ground and knock the ball away from the UW player either from behind on the dribble or knock a pass away as it flew towards a UW player for what would have been an easy layup. I don’t know how many points Miles’s defensive skills, effort, and smarts saved us on Saturday, but it was a lot.


    Andre Dawkins, for the team-leading 32 minutes he played, didn’t have much impact on defense. I only noted 7 plays that he really had much to do with. Unfortunately, five of them would have to be deemed negative. His main problems were getting around screens and keeping his man in front. He didn’t provide a lot of help for others, didn’t have his hands on many balls, didn’t have many notable challenges to shooters. He was kinda just out there doing OK, nothing special, but getting beaten periodically.

    Quinn Cook played limited minutes, though he was in there at crunch time by necessity. Defensively, Quinn played well, with three of the four plays I noted being positive ones. I like his ball pressure and he seems willing to stick his nose in there too.

    Josh and Mike G didn’t get enough PT to say anything meaningful about their performances.

    OK, that’s my submission for longest-post-of-the-year. Of course, all feedback, suggestions for improvement on my methods, etc, are welcome.

  2. #2
    Thanks, Tommy, good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Andre Dawkins, for the team-leading 32 minutes he played, didn’t have much impact on defense. I only noted 7 plays that he really had much to do with. Unfortunately, five of them would have to be deemed negative. His main problems were getting around screens and keeping his man in front. He didn’t provide a lot of help for others, didn’t have his hands on many balls, didn’t have many notable challenges to shooters. He was kinda just out there doing OK, nothing special, but getting beaten periodically.
    I don't think there's any way to chart it, but what I think you're missing is off-ball defense. I spent a lot of time watching Andre (also Mike and Quinn, when they were in there) play defense off the ball. All three did pretty well at following their man, although obviously Mike's time and Quinn's time was limited. I was very impressed how Andre stayed with Ross off the ball and denied him the ability to get the ball in a position to score (there was one glaring exception to this, when Andre unwisely helped inside and Ross got a three from the corner, but overall, I though Andre looked very good in this regard).

    Put another way, it's possible that the fact that Andre was only involved in seven plays that you noticed (while spending much of the game guarding one of Washington's most dangerous players) might in and of itself be an indicator of good defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Defensively, Quinn played well, with three of the four plays I noted being positive ones.
    I thought I remembered Quinn getting beat a couple times one-on-one in the first half ("bad SIF," in your lingo), but you don't list anything like that. I also remember the time Gaddy blew by him in the second half that you do mention. It's possible I am remembering incorrectly, but several posters in the post-game thread mentioned the same thing, so I'm not sure.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Thanks, Tommy, good stuff.



    I don't think there's any way to chart it, but what I think you're missing is off-ball defense. I spent a lot of time watching Andre (also Mike and Quinn, when they were in there) play defense off the ball. All three did pretty well at following their man, although obviously Mike's time and Quinn's time was limited. I was very impressed how Andre stayed with Ross off the ball and denied him the ability to get the ball in a position to score (there was one glaring exception to this, when Andre unwisely helped inside and Ross got a three from the corner, but overall, I though Andre looked very good in this regard).

    Put another way, it's possible that the fact that Andre was only involved in seven plays that you noticed (while spending much of the game guarding one of Washington's most dangerous players) might in and of itself be an indicator of good defense.
    I agree. Any system that doesn't take into account off-ball defense is likely to undervalue Andre's defensive contributions, as that is his strongest suit. In this game in particular, Ross scored very little in the first half, and Andre's coverage had a lot to do with that.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Thanks, Tommy, good stuff.



    I don't think there's any way to chart it, but what I think you're missing is off-ball defense. I spent a lot of time watching Andre (also Mike and Quinn, when they were in there) play defense off the ball. All three did pretty well at following their man, although obviously Mike's time and Quinn's time was limited. I was very impressed how Andre stayed with Ross off the ball and denied him the ability to get the ball in a position to score (there was one glaring exception to this, when Andre unwisely helped inside and Ross got a three from the corner, but overall, I though Andre looked very good in this regard).

    Put another way, it's possible that the fact that Andre was only involved in seven plays that you noticed (while spending much of the game guarding one of Washington's most dangerous players) might in and of itself be an indicator of good defense.



    I thought I remembered Quinn getting beat a couple times one-on-one in the first half ("bad SIF," in your lingo), but you don't list anything like that. I also remember the time Gaddy blew by him in the second half that you do mention. It's possible I am remembering incorrectly, but several posters in the post-game thread mentioned the same thing, so I'm not sure.
    I just got done watching this game for the THIRD time now. This time I watched it exclusively to focus on Andre Dawkins' off-ball defense (and Quinn's for his limited minutes too), to see if your perception was backed up by the tape. What I found was that, in addition to the involvement that I noted in my original post, there were a total of four times that Andre's off-ball defense, in terms of ball denial or aggressive bodying of Ross or anyone else on UW prevented a meaningful pass to that player or prevented that player from going where he wanted to go. Twice in the first half and twice in the second. Not a lot for 32 minutes of action against players like Ross and Wilcox.

    But I also noticed something else: this was not actually indicative of either good or bad defense or passivity from Andre. His getting beaten 1-on-1, or failing to get around screens a few times was not good, but that's another issue. On this issue of defense off the ball, the fact is that UW did a lot more going one-on-one than I had realized, so there was not a whole lot of looking for Ross on pop-outs on the wing, backdoors, etc to force Andre to defend. But in addition, Ross was not all that active. In playing a lot of ball in my life, coaches always told me to make myself "hard to guard" -- meaning move a lot without the ball. Ross did very little of that, so again, his off-the-ball play didn't demand that much of Andre. When Ross did get the ball he was aggressive with it, and very effective, a lot of which I noted, but his off-the-ball effort appeared to me to be lacking. I hadn't noticed that before this viewing of the game.

    As far as Quinn goes, late in the first half he had one instance where he applied solid pressure on the outside, but Gaddy made a good move and got the J off, but Quinn contested it well. And then on the next possession Ross made a strong move on Quinn 1-on-1, and Quinn fouled him. I don't know why K gave him such a quick hook, but there was nothing else notable that Quinn either did or didn't do defensively.

    In the second half I noted his good ball pressure on one possession and then his getting beaten a minute or so later by Gaddy, as you correctly recall. That's it.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I just got done watching this game for the THIRD time now. This time I watched it exclusively to focus on Andre Dawkins' off-ball defense (and Quinn's for his limited minutes too), to see if your perception was backed up by the tape.
    Wow, I never expected you'd put yourself through that just to test my perception. Thanks.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Wow, I never expected you'd put yourself through that just to test my perception. Thanks.
    Well, I was curious too. Your questioning as to this issue was welcome and I just wanted to be thorough.

  7. #7

    A Friendly Suggestion...

    Interesting work. Thanks!

    One additional thing that would be helpful is a note on who the players were guarding. Obviously, this makes a difference when the opponent has an elite talent. It likely would not be that much more difficult to include a note of the player being guarded, which would allow for some very interesting analysis. In fact, you might even narrow the project by focusing only on possessions featuring a particular opposing player.

    As an obvious example, it would be interesting to see this kind of data for our defenders attempting to handle Harrison Barnes, who we will face multiple times this year. This thread has numerous references to Dawkins, and my recollection is that he stepped in last year and did comparably well against Barnes in one of the games (better than Kyle, which was a bit of a surprise). Including data on who was being guarded (or limiting to a key player(s)) would allow for more of an apples-to-apples analysis and provide food for debate on which matchups are favorable. Just a thought (which I unfortunately do not have the time to pursue).

  8. #8
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    Cool I appreciate your work on these threads

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Well, I was curious too. Your questioning as to this issue was welcome and I just wanted to be thorough.
    I just wanted to express my appreciation for the work you put into these threads. Besides the overall analysis, your ability to categorize the types of plays you see really add to my appreciation of watching the games.

    I realize that these threads require a lot of time and effort, but whenever you do them, I want you to know that I will be an eager reader.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaymf7 View Post
    Interesting work. Thanks!

    One additional thing that would be helpful is a note on who the players were guarding. Obviously, this makes a difference when the opponent has an elite talent. It likely would not be that much more difficult to include a note of the player being guarded, which would allow for some very interesting analysis. In fact, you might even narrow the project by focusing only on possessions featuring a particular opposing player.

    As an obvious example, it would be interesting to see this kind of data for our defenders attempting to handle Harrison Barnes, who we will face multiple times this year. This thread has numerous references to Dawkins, and my recollection is that he stepped in last year and did comparably well against Barnes in one of the games (better than Kyle, which was a bit of a surprise). Including data on who was being guarded (or limiting to a key player(s)) would allow for more of an apples-to-apples analysis and provide food for debate on which matchups are favorable. Just a thought (which I unfortunately do not have the time to pursue).
    Neither do I!

  10. #10
    I too appreciate all your efforts, Tommy.

    I have been tracking some complementary metrics+ +/- by player since the Davidson game and by 5 - man combinations.

    For the Washington game:

    DU Wash +/-

    55 (41) 14 Austin Rivers, G

    67 (55) 12 Mason Plumlee, F

    60 (54) +6 Ryan Kelly, F

    73 (70) +3 Andre Dawkins, G

    53 (51) +2 Seth Curry, G

    62 (62) 00 Tyler Thornton, G

    44 (45) (1) Miles Plumlee, F

    01 (02) (1) Josh Hairston, F

    00 (02) (2) Michael Gbinije, G-F

    15 (18) (3) Quinn Cook, G

    The 5 player combos are in order of minutes played in tandem, and the goo dnews is that the units the coaches played the most had some of the better +/- results:

    PT(min) Duke Wash +/-

    5.9 16 10 +6 Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler *5

    5.3 13 08 +5 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Miles *2

    5.2 13 07 +6 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles *3

    4.8 10 06 +4 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles *4

    3.2 13 09 +4 Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler *2

    3.2 00 06 (6) Seth-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler *2

    2.5 06 06 00 Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn *3

    1.8 00 03 (3) Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

    1.6 05 00 +5 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler *2

    1.2 00 02 (2) Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler-Mike

    1.1 08 10 (2) Dre-Ryan-Tyler-MilesQuinn

    0.9 00 02 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Tyler

    0.9 01 05 (4) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan *3

    0.8 00 02 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

    0.6 00 02 (2) Seth-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

    0.5 00 00 00 Seth-Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler

    0.5 01 02 (1) Dre-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn-Josh

    40.0 86 80 06

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    I too appreciate all your efforts, Tommy.

    I have been tracking some complementary metrics+ +/- by player since the Davidson game and by 5 - man combinations.

    For the Washington game:

    DU Wash +/-

    55 (41) 14 Austin Rivers, G

    67 (55) 12 Mason Plumlee, F

    60 (54) +6 Ryan Kelly, F

    73 (70) +3 Andre Dawkins, G

    53 (51) +2 Seth Curry, G

    62 (62) 00 Tyler Thornton, G

    44 (45) (1) Miles Plumlee, F

    01 (02) (1) Josh Hairston, F

    00 (02) (2) Michael Gbinije, G-F

    15 (18) (3) Quinn Cook, G

    The 5 player combos are in order of minutes played in tandem, and the goo dnews is that the units the coaches played the most had some of the better +/- results:

    PT(min) Duke Wash +/-

    5.9 16 10 +6 Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler *5

    5.3 13 08 +5 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Miles *2

    5.2 13 07 +6 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles *3

    4.8 10 06 +4 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles *4

    3.2 13 09 +4 Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler *2

    3.2 00 06 (6) Seth-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler *2

    2.5 06 06 00 Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn *3

    1.8 00 03 (3) Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

    1.6 05 00 +5 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler *2

    1.2 00 02 (2) Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler-Mike

    1.1 08 10 (2) Dre-Ryan-Tyler-MilesQuinn

    0.9 00 02 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Tyler

    0.9 01 05 (4) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan *3

    0.8 00 02 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

    0.6 00 02 (2) Seth-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

    0.5 00 00 00 Seth-Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler

    0.5 01 02 (1) Dre-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn-Josh

    40.0 86 80 06
    Hey that's great stuff. Thanks! Figuring out +/- can be pretty tough and time consuming, so thanks for the effort. I have to say I'm surprised to see Miles's number, as he was just a defensive beast in this game and did some nice things offensively too. Interesting.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Miles:
    Hedge/recovery/knock ball away 1
    Strong fight for inside position 1
    Good help on screen/roll 2
    Good closeout/challenge on outside shooter 2
    Stands ground vs good shot fake 1
    Lost/lazy on screen/roll 1
    Failure to get around screen 1
    Part of aggressive doubleteam 1
    Allows too-deep post position 1
    Good help in lane or on baseline vs. drive against beaten teammate 5
    Hustle back/tip ball in transition 3
    Blocked shot at the rim 3

    The defensive star of the game, IMO, was clearly Miles Plumlee. Dude came to play. He fought hard inside; he challenged jump shooters; he played smart on doubleteam situations; he provided great help for beaten teammates all day long; he protected the rim with at least 3 blocked shots. But my favorite part of watching him was the hustle he showed when we were in transition defense. On three separate occasions he hustled his butt off and was able to make up ground and knock the ball away from the UW player either from behind on the dribble or knock a pass away as it flew towards a UW player for what would have been an easy layup. I don’t know how many points Miles’s defensive skills, effort, and smarts saved us on Saturday, but it was a lot.
    An excellent assessment, tommy - thanks! Miles got my vote for MOTM against Washington. I was in the minority in terms of the voting, so I'm glad to see a that a quantitative assessment of his defensive production matches what I thought I saw. Your assessment didn't take his offense into account, and that was solid as well. IMHO Miles was phenomenal, both offensively and defensively, against Washington. My semi-joking comment on the CTN in-game chat was that he was becoming the Plumlee of Choice for the end of the game due to his free throw shooting, and I ranted for several late possessions because Mason was still in rather than Miles. I don't think I can say enough about how great a game this was for Miles. I really, really hope this game represented a turning point for Miles and that this is the player we see for the rest of the season.

  13. #13

    first half

    Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion on the defensive effort. In reviewing the first half (since there hasn't been any Duke bball), I don't always agree with your comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    First half:

    Time 1922: Thornton sticks his nose in as UW goes for defensive board, results in ball going off UW and back to us. Good defensive hustle play in the backcourt.

    1852: Mason blocks 2 consecutive shots underneath. Tyler good help after the first block, bothered UW player into making weak second shot, making Mason's second block a lot easier.
    Just prior to the 1852 comment, Seth slips going for a steal and Tyler slides over to cover Seth's man, harassing him and that may have helped Mason in blocking the first shot. After the second block, it should also be noted that Tyler gets the ball.

    Around 1822, Austin goes down after his made basket so Duke is 4 on 5. Tyler is very disruptive and winds up getting the ball a UW player tries to throw off Seth as the UDub player goes out of bounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    1806: Thornton good wing pressure but he's too small to prevent easy entry pass

    1756: 1 on 1 post, Austin challenges well, Mason comes over to provide good help and challenge
    Austin didn't handle the screen that well from what I saw.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    1734: Seth good pressure vs. UW mini-break, contributes to bad UW pass
    Seth missed a steal. Mason was there, but mostly this is just a bad Wilcox pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    1634: Thornton loses his man 1-on-1 in halfcourt, leads to missed gimme by UW. Pick & roll - Mason switches onto Wroten - foul. Good play by Wroten.
    Thornton was screened, losing his man sounds as if he's unaware defensively. Didn't see any gimme ... Ndiaye rushes a jump hook with Mason right there.

    There's no pick and roll play here. Austin (not Tyler as the quote above seems to indicate) is screened and Mason plays good defense without fouling. Granted, he was called for a foul but in reviewing, it's pretty obvious that Wroten pushes him with the off hand in order to get his shot away.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    1238: Mason good help/hedge on hi screen/roll; Seth recovers, reaches in and knocks ball loose.
    This is just inaccurate. Seth tried to knock the ball away, but Wroten -- a lefty -- tries to fire a bullet pass which Tyler breaks up leading to a Duke possession.


    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post

    1022: Austin good 1-on-1 SIF/pressure

    1021: Miles a little lost/lazy outside on screen/roll, leads to 3 by Wroten.
    Miles steps up to stop the ball handler that Austin is guarding. There is no screen and roll. The ball handler passes, screens Miles and Wroten hits the NBA distance 3 pointer. Your assessment makes Miles D sound poor here but I don't believe it was and he certainly didn't appear lost or lazy.


    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    956: Thornton beaten 1-on-1 off dribble; fouls.
    Tyler was not beaten and stayed in front of Wroten well. He grabbed the ball and this play could just as easily been called a held ball, though generally an aggressive offensive player is going to get that call.


    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    935: Seth/Miles good aggressive double team as part of halfcourt pressure.
    This good play preceded by Tyler and Seth forcing the dribbler toward the sideline allowing the double team of Seth and Miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    822: Austin gets screened on out-of-bounds play, Mason doesn't react. Missed J.
    825 Seth holds Ross. Not a good foul so close to baseline official.
    822 Just prior Dawkins manages to move past a screen and follow his man. Austin gets caught up. Mason rightly has to guard against the easy shot under the basket. Pretty sure this is as directed for out of bounds play and not a failure to react.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    553: Tyler takes charge from Wroten on the break.
    Good play by Tyler and assisted by the pressure of Dawkins on the man.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    452: Tyler good outside pressure. Miles good help for Tyler on the drive, causes a kickout. Then good challenge by Miles on the outside J.
    Dawkins fights for and grabs the rebound here.


    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    228: Cook good pressure on outside, but then Gaddy makes move, gets enough separation for the J, which Quinn does contest. Good.
    Cook is beaten off the dribble. Guy shot fakes allowing QC time to recover somewhat but the UW player easily shoots over him.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    205: Ross strong individual move; Cook fouls him on 1-on-1 drive.
    Cook again is beaten off the drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    146: Pick/roll between Quinn and Mason's men - decent recovery by Quinn on roll but Ndiaye makes the play anyway, then several offensive boards and tips that are blown, Mason can't time his jump properly, finally ends up with a UW hoop.
    This actually is a pick and roll, but Quinn does not recover "on the roll", the guy rolling is Ndiaye. Had Quinn stayed with Ndiaye, the pass might have been broken up.

    Don't see much fault with Mason's play here. Don't really have the time or inclination to review the second half in this kind of detail, but it does seem you undervalue some good defensive play and mischaracterize some of the action.

    While I agree with most of your comments, it appears there are some notable exceptions, particularly as it pertains to Thornton, Dawkins and Cook.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion on the defensive effort. In reviewing the first half (since there hasn't been any Duke bball), I don't always agree with your comments.
    My initial reaction was to not respond to you, because I've watched this game three times now and watched a lot of these plays multiple times, and felt pretty confident about my analysis. But I wanted other posters who have enjoyed my analysis to be able to feel confident in its accuracy should I do this again in the future, so I thought I should respond.

    With all due respect, upon yet another, fourth review of the plays that you cite, with a couple of minor exceptions, I'm not sure what you were watching when you wrote your post. A number of your assertions are simply not backed up by the tape. A couple of things you added weren't incorrect, but I just didn't think they were worthy of mention in my initial post. I'll go through all of your notes below.



    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Just prior to the 1852 comment, Seth slips going for a steal and Tyler slides over to cover Seth's man, harassing him and that may have helped Mason in blocking the first shot. After the second block, it should also be noted that Tyler gets the ball.
    On this play, Tyler did slide over to cover to help after Austin, not Seth, had slipped. But Ty had nothing to do with Mason's block, or harrassing the UW player such that it made the block easier for Mason. It's just not there. Ty did grab the ball after Mason's block. Noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Around 1822, Austin goes down after his made basket so Duke is 4 on 5. Tyler is very disruptive and winds up getting the ball a UW player tries to throw off Seth as the UDub player goes out of bounds.
    It was a 4 on 5, but Thornton was not involved at all, much less "very disruptive." What happened was the ball was thrown over/past Ryan's very light pressure, crosscourt, for an open 3 that UW missed w/ an airball. Thornton was simply not part of that play.

    When the 3 was airballed, UW saved it right to Tyler, with no Huskies around him to challenge him for it. There's nothing special that TT did here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    1756 Austin didn't handle the screen that well from what I saw.
    It wasn't a screen play. Like I said, it was a post-up on Austin on which he challenged the shot well, with Mason's help.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    1734 Seth missed a steal. Mason was there, but mostly this is just a bad Wilcox pass.
    Seth "missed" a half-hearted attempt at a reach-around steal 45' from the basket, but the point is that he hustled back and continued to harass Wilcox all the way into the lane, and that pressure was a significant factor in Wilcox forcing a bad pass that went out of bounds for a turnover.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    1634 Thornton was screened, losing his man sounds as if he's unaware defensively. Didn't see any gimme ... Ndiaye rushes a jump hook with Mason right there.
    No. Thornton was not screened. UW's big set a screen to TT's right, but Gaddy didn't use it. He went to his right (Ty's left), past Thornton and got into the lane. He had an 8-footer that he should've taken but instead tried a tough pass to Ndiaye that he caught and had a 5' hook that was not contested much. Pretty close to a gimme. Mason wasn't "right there" -- he was off Ndiaye and never put his hands up or jumped. Shoulda made it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    There's no pick and roll play here. Austin (not Tyler as the quote above seems to indicate) is screened and Mason plays good defense without fouling. Granted, he was called for a foul but in reviewing, it's pretty obvious that Wroten pushes him with the off hand in order to get his shot away.
    Yes, there absolutely was a screen/roll here. It was a high screen; Ndiaye's roll was halfhearted because it was obvious that Wroten was going to the hoop and shooting. We agree there was good help by Mason, but there was no obvious pushoff by Wroten. His right hand was up there but I'm not faulting the zebra for it and neither Mason nor our staff appeared to complain about the call.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    1238 This is just inaccurate. Seth tried to knock the ball away, but Wroten -- a lefty -- tries to fire a bullet pass which Tyler breaks up leading to a Duke possession.
    Here's what happened. Seth knocked it loose on the dribble. Wroten recovered it but he was now out of rhythm and just tried to get rid of it. This was good hands and general peskiness by Seth.

    When Wroten tried to fire it, he threw it right at Thornton's face from about 3' away. All TT did was put his hands up (to protect himself?) and yes, he got his hands up in time and on the ball and it bounced off him to Mason. That's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    1022 Miles steps up to stop the ball handler that Austin is guarding. There is no screen and roll. The ball handler passes, screens Miles and Wroten hits the NBA distance 3 pointer. Your assessment makes Miles D sound poor here but I don't believe it was and he certainly didn't appear lost or lazy.
    Austin did a nice job staying in front of Wilcox off the dribble on this, forcing the pass to Wroten. You're right, there was then a screen, not a screen/roll. When Wilcox gave it up to Wroten, Wilcox lightly screened Miles, who doesn't do much to get around it, allowing Wroten to launch the 3. Miles may not have been lost, but he was lazy getting around an eminently avoidable weak screen. As it was Miles's man who came off the screen he should've seen it coming and made the effort to fight through and contest the shot. He didn't. Putting a belated hand up is all he did. Watch it again and you'll see.


    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    956 Tyler was not beaten and stayed in front of Wroten well. He grabbed the ball and this play could just as easily been called a held ball, though generally an aggressive offensive player is going to get that call.
    He was beaten by a bigger, physical, skilled player going to the hoop, and had to hold in order to stop him from getting all the way there. No chance of a held ball there.


    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    935 This good play preceded by Tyler and Seth forcing the dribbler toward the sideline allowing the double team of Seth and Miles.
    Again, not sure what you were looking at here. There was no forcing the dribbler anywhere. He didn't go towards the sideline at all. Tyler and Seth both stayed a good 5' away from him, and the dribbler then gave it up while about 8' from the sideline, with Tyler about 5' to his right and Seth about 4' in front of him and jumping to try to block the pass heading for the frontcourt. Check it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    825 Seth holds Ross. Not a good foul so close to baseline official.
    Agree. Ross was just too strong for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    822 Just prior Dawkins manages to move past a screen and follow his man. Austin gets caught up. Mason rightly has to guard against the easy shot under the basket. Pretty sure this is as directed for out of bounds play and not a failure to react.
    Maybe. Or maybe our big is supposed to challenge the jump shooter, especially when another big (in this case Kelly) is under the hoop and boxing out. Not sure what the staff has instructed Mason on that kind of play.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    553 Good play by Tyler and assisted by the pressure of Dawkins on the man.
    Sorry, but I didn't see Dawkins do much here. He was there, but it was Tyler who did the step-in to take the charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    436 Dawkins fights for and grabs the rebound here.
    Yes, he did. I considered that to be a rebounding play more than a defensive play, though, so that's why I hadn't included it in the analysis of our defense in this game.


    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    228 Cook is beaten off the dribble. Guy shot fakes allowing QC time to recover somewhat but the UW player easily shoots over him.
    He is, but he hustles, recovers, and challenges. Gaddy's shot fake helped, but this was not a bad effort by QC, really. He contested.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Cook again is beaten off the drive.
    Not really. He was right with the Husky player, never losing contact with him. This was just a good, aggressive move, and the offensive player usually gets and deserves this call. This was not a case where Quinn just lost his man on a drive or got blown by. Not even close to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    146 This actually is a pick and roll, but Quinn does not recover "on the roll", the guy rolling is Ndiaye. Had Quinn stayed with Ndiaye, the pass might have been broken up.

    Don't see much fault with Mason's play here. Don't really have the time or inclination to review the second half in this kind of detail, but it does seem you undervalue some good defensive play and mischaracterize some of the action.
    Quinn got screened by Mason's man. Ryan was in the lane. Quinn recoverd to re-pickup his own man, leaving Ryan to handle Ndiaye underneath. Little on little, big on big. Sounds to me like the way the coaches would probably prefer it. Had QC stayed with Ndiaye and Kelly tried to step up, either Gaddy blows by Kelly or he throws it over Cook's head to Ndiaye for a layup.

    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Don't really have the time or inclination to review the second half in this kind of detail, but it does seem you undervalue some good defensive play and mischaracterize some of the action.
    Again, with all due respect, I am confident that a close and repeated review of the game tape suggests otherwise.

    Cheers.

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