Where are they now?: Neill McGeachy

[throatybeard]

When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.

Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

[77devil]

Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

Nevertheless, all the transfers, Dawson, O'Connor, Fitzsimmons, etc. happened in a period of a few years. Bucky had a problem whether it was communicating with the college students of the time or something else.

The 1969-70 freshman team was loaded going undefeated. Only Gary Melchionni and Alan Shaw were left for Bucky's last season. What could have been?

[Olympic Fan]

I've wondered how interested Daly was in the Duke job. His Penn teams at the time were very talented, much better than Duke, and competed at the national level. Maybe the challenge of trying to restore Duke to a national power was an allure. I do know for certain from someone who played for Daly, that the Duke job was never mentioned by him to the team nor a rumor in the Penn locker room.

Neill seemed like a decent guy thrown into an untenable situation. It should come as no surprise that he did just fine. I'd just as soon forget the 1973-74 season, all things considered

Daly wanted the Duke job VERY badly in 1969, when Bubas retired ... he was not a candidate in the fall of 1973 (or spring on 1974) when the job opened up again.

When Bubas stepped down, AD Eddie Cameron had a choice of four candidates for the job -- and three of them are now in the Hall of Fame. He hired the fourth guy.

Daly, who was Bubas' top assistant, was regarded as a strong candidate. When Bucky got the nod, Daly went to BC for two years (replacing Bob Cousy), then to Penn. Hubie Brown, who was Bubas' freshman coach, applied, but never got a serious look.

In addition, Davidson coach (and Duke grad) Lefty Driesell, who was en route from Charlotte to College Park, Md., for the 1969 East Regionals didn't fly with his team. He drove on hios own and stopped in Durham on the way. I know he met with Vic and he tried to meet with Cameron ... not sure Cameron ever saw him. I know he never gave him a formal interview. Disappointed, Driesell went on to College Park. The day after Charlie Scott beat the Wildcats in the finals with a last-second shot, Driesell toured the Maryland campus and took the job there.

Like Daly, Driesell was no longer a viable candidate in 1973-74.

All in all, I can't complain about the way hirngs worked out. The 1970s were a tough decade for the devils -- at least until Foster got it going in 1977-78, but all that misery led to the greatest coaching hire in Duke (and maybe NCAA) history in 1980.

PS You are right, gotoguy, Burch was in the second class to play as freshmen. Do you remember Dave O'Connell from Cincinnati? Reputed to be a better leaper than David Thompson, OConnell was always hurt ... and when he did play, he could do little more than jump high.

[jimsumner]

Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

[throatybeard]

I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

OK, good. So there's a clear reformulation of the problem.

But that then raises the question, why was Dean able to handle it? Lefty? Sloan. Carnasecca. Schembechler. Dooley. Paterno. Bowden. Thompson. Phelan. These non-DI guys like Statham, Meyer, Magee, Big House Gaines. I realize I've named an all-star list, but surely there were a lot of other guys who got their start in the 1960s and managed to keep a critical mass of twenty-year-olds from defecting from their teams.

Between 1965 and 1973, was there a raft of casualties in coaching, over and above what you'd expect just from the fact that half the coaches have to go >.500? Or is this just a narrative that has been applied to Bucky Waters in retrospect?

[Olympic Fan]

OK, good. So there's a clear reformulation of the problem.

But that then raises the question, why was Dean able to handle it? Lefty? Sloan. Carnasecca. Schembechler. Dooley. Paterno. Bowden. Thompson. Phelan. These non-DI guys like Statham, Meyer, Magee, Big House Gaines. I realize I've named an all-star list, but surely there were a lot of other guys who got their start in the 1960s and managed to keep a critical mass of twenty-year-olds from defecting from their teams.

Between 1965 and 1973, was there a raft of casualties in coaching, over and above what you'd expect just from the fact that half the coaches have to go >.500? Or is this just a narrative that has been applied to Bucky Waters in retrospect?

Believe me, I was there and as great as guy as Bucky is, he did have problems exerting authority over his kids. This isn't just a narrative that has been applied in retrospect.

Bucky admits that the was a hard***. He used to brag that when the Duke team traveled, they didn't take any hair-dryers along (remember, this is a time when a lot of kids liked long hair). I once heard him tell a reporter that he didn't care if his players hated him ... he claimed that Bubas' players hated Bubas too! When Miami of Ohio upset UNC in Chapel Hill, their starting center was the same Dave Elmer who left Duke after one game of his sophomore season (he actually refused to go into the game because he knew he was transferring and didn't want to lose a year of eligibility). Elmer talked to reporters after the game and complained about how he transferred becaus he couldn't play for Bucky any more ... that's not somthing concocted in hindsight.

As you noted, there were a lot of successful coaches who didn't have problems dealing with kids in that era. But a lot did -- it's easy to remember the successful coaches who succeeded. What we frget are all the failures -- like Waters -- who couldn't reach the kids in that tumultuous period.

[sagegrouse]

Yes, but it's hard to say. People tend to blame Bucky without recognizing how difficult that historical era (the war, the race riots) was to deal with.
I certainly don't think Brown would have done much better; he's about as old school as Bucky was. Daly might have had more success, but who knows.
The admininstration did what they thought was right at the time; it just didn't work out that way.

When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.

Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

I always thought that Bucky Waters was the victim of his era, the final years of the Vietnam War and the radicalization of college campuses. There was no period like that in the history of American education. And while those above who wondered how Bucky failed but Dean and Lefty survived -- well, they weren't at Duke in the late '60s and early '70s. No, there probably weren't radicals on the Duke basketball team, but the athletes clearly were part of campus life and had to have been affected.

It is hard to remember the era, but it was just awful on college campuses. Why was it so bad? The Vietnam War was increasing unpopular, and the US was losing over 10,000 soldiers and marines every year. While it was bad enough on campus when students were able to get deferments to continue their education, it blew up totally when student deferments were eliminated for graduate education in the late 1960s and ended totally in 1971. Student protesters shut down Columbia in the spring of 1968, and such protests continued through at least 1972. The universities so affected often mailed out grades and diplomas, even though classes and exams were never held. A legion of college presidents at elite universities threw in the towel: Douglas Knight at Duke, Kenneth Pitzer at Stanford, and Nathan Pusey at Harvard are just the beginning of a long list. The only guy who seemed to survive was Kingman Brewster at Yale (chronicled in the early Doonesbury strip), who took to the streets with the students. I am sure he was viewed as a complete lunatic by other presidents, but it worked for him. The situation at Duke was so bad in 1969 that it recruited a talented politician and lawyer, Terry Sanford, to serve as president.

Does Bucky get a "pass" because of Vietnam? No, not really, but the violence and turmoil on college campuses were unprecedented before or since. I gave him an "incomplete."

sagegrouse

[jimsumner]

I always thought that Bucky Waters was the victim of his era, the final years of the Vietnam War and the radicalization of college campuses. There was no period like that in the history of American education. And while those above who wondered how Bucky failed but Dean and Lefty survived -- well, they weren't at Duke in the late '60s and early '70s. No, there probably weren't radicals on the Duke basketball team, but the athletes clearly were part of campus life and had to have been affected.

It is hard to remember the era, but it was just awful on college campuses. Why was it so bad? The Vietnam War was increasing unpopular, and the US was losing over 10,000 soldiers and marines every year. While it was bad enough on campus when students were able to get deferments to continue their education, it blew up totally when student deferments were eliminated for graduate education in the late 1960s and ended totally in 1971. Student protesters shut down Columbia in the spring of 1968, and such protests continued through at least 1972. The universities so affected often mailed out grades and diplomas, even though classes and exams were never held. A legion of college presidents at elite universities threw in the towel: Douglas Knight at Duke, Kenneth Pitzer at Stanford, and Nathan Pusey at Harvard are just the beginning of a long list. The only guy who seemed to survive was Kingman Brewster at Yale (chronicled in the early Doonesbury strip), who took to the streets with the students. I am sure he was viewed as a complete lunatic by other presidents, but it worked for him. The situation at Duke was so bad in 1969 that it recruited a talented politician and lawyer, Terry Sanford, to serve as president.

Does Bucky get a "pass" because of Vietnam? No, not really, but the violence and turmoil on college campuses were unprecedented before or since. I gave him an "incomplete."

sagegrouse

Seems fair to me. And, yes, I was there, too.

Bucky was of the When-I-say-jump, you-ask-how-high- mindset. His players wanted an explanation of why they should jump. The cultures just didn't meet.

It got messy. Real messy.

[roywhite]

Seems fair to me. And, yes, I was there, too.

Bucky was of the When-I-say-jump, you-ask-how-high- mindset. His players wanted an explanation of why they should jump. The cultures just didn't meet.

It got messy. Real messy.

A couple additional points from an undergrad from that era:

It took a while for Duke to get talented African-American players fully into the program. Don Blackmon came in as a freshman in 1968-69, showed some promise, but transferred after his sophomore year
As noted previously, Edgar Burch flunked out of school.
Willie Hodges had some ability, but was inconsistent.
In the mean time, rival schools were attracting players like David Thompson, Charles Scott, Bill Chamberlain, Charlie Davis at Wake, and Len Elmore at Maryland.
It took until the arrival of Gene Banks in 1977-78 for Duke to have a truly successful African-American player and Bucky was long gone by then.
Probably not fair to blame these recruiting difficulties entirely on Bucky, but it didn't help the progress of the program

Bucky was just not a very good communicator with the players IMO
I recall some years back when long-time trainer Max Crowder passed away that Bucky made some remarks about how he would often check with Max to get a feel for what the players were thinking. Nothing wrong with talking with the trainer, and credit to Max here, but you just can't imagine Coach K being unaware himself of what the players were thinking, and dispatching a trainer for a report.

Bucky has gone on to do some fine things for the University and did well in broadcasting.
He's a good man, but was not the right man for head coach in the early 1970's.

[hq2]

Yeah, Bucky got hit with a double whammy of both the war and the race riots. He came in about a year
after King was assassinated, and racial tensions in Durham were still high then. Duke had been a segregated
campus for a long time, and Bucky had to recruit black players against Carolina and other programs to a program
that had never had any. That and the war was just too much for him. And, I should point out, if K, WEST POINT
GRADUATE, had been at Duke in '69, he would not have fared any better and K knows it too. Bucky was
simply the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Reilly]

Very interesting thread.

What were Bucky's attributes as a basketball coach? For that matter, what were Bubas's, Daly's, and Hubie Brown's ... that is, what were they and their teams known for, basketball-wise, in the way that K is known for defense, and for being a psyhological master at getting his teams to seemingly play harder than other teams ... or that Bubas (so I've read) revolutionized recruiting, making it more systematic and getting in earlier... or some coaches are known for pressing, others for the fast break ... what's the book on this cast of characters ...

[jimsumner]

A couple additional points from an undergrad from that era:

It took a while for Duke to get talented African-American players fully into the program. Don Blackmon came in as a freshman in 1968-69, showed some promise, but transferred after his sophomore year
As noted previously, Edgar Burch flunked out of school.
Willie Hodges had some ability, but was inconsistent.
In the mean time, rival schools were attracting players like David Thompson, Charles Scott, Bill Chamberlain, Charlie Davis at Wake, and Len Elmore at Maryland.
It took until the arrival of Gene Banks in 1977-78 for Duke to have a truly successful African-American player and Bucky was long gone by then.
Probably not fair to blame these recruiting difficulties entirely on Bucky, but it didn't help the progress of the program

Bucky was just not a very good communicator with the players IMO
I recall some years back when long-time trainer Max Crowder passed away that Bucky made some remarks about how he would often check with Max to get a feel for what the players were thinking. Nothing wrong with talking with the trainer, and credit to Max here, but you just can't imagine Coach K being unaware himself of what the players were thinking, and dispatching a trainer for a report.

Bucky has gone on to do some fine things for the University and did well in broadcasting.
He's a good man, but was not the right man for head coach in the early 1970's.

Duke did recruit Thompson, John Lucas, Scott (when Bubas was in charge), James Brown, Geoff Crompton, Craig Littlepage and other high-profile African Americans and just couldn't get any traction.

Willie Hodge was pretty good. Averaged 17 and 8 as a senior. George Moses also deserves a mention here.

Waters took over at WVU from George King. King had left a number of African American players, including star guard Ron Williams. West Virgina was in the Southern Conference. We're talking mid-1960s here. Bucky would go to places like Furman and the Citadel--not known as bastions of pro-integration sentiment-and put three or four black players on the floor at the same time. And get considerable grief for it.

Bucky also hired Jim Lewis, one of his WVU players, as a Duke assistant. Lewis was one of the first African American coaches in the ACC.

So, whatever problems Duke may have had recruiting African Americans, a reluctant head coach was not among them.

[throatybeard]

Bucky admits that the was a hard***. He used to brag that when the Duke team traveled, they didn't take any hair-dryers along (remember, this is a time when a lot of kids liked long hair).

That's pretty funny. I don't even own a hair-dryer. My wife does, but she scarcely uses it, coz she says it damages her hair. I look at the pictures in Brill 1986, of the 70s teams, and between the white-boy 'fros and the porn-star mustaches, my eyes bleed.

And, I should point out, if K, WEST POINT GRADUATE, had been at Duke in '69, he would not have fared any better and K knows it too. Bucky was simply the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is a very interesting point. And he was 22 at the time. Right man, right place, right time in 1980.

[roywhite]

Duke did recruit Thompson, John Lucas, Scott (when Bubas was in charge), James Brown, Geoff Crompton, Craig Littlepage and other high-profile African Americans and just couldn't get any traction.

Willie Hodge was pretty good. Averaged 17 and 8 as a senior. George Moses also deserves a mention here.

Waters took over at WVU from George King. King had left a number of African American players, including star guard Ron Williams. West Virgina was in the Southern Conference. We're talking mid-1960s here. Bucky would go to places like Furman and the Citadel--not known as bastions of pro-integration sentiment-and put three or four black players on the floor at the same time. And get considerable grief for it.

Bucky also hired Jim Lewis, one of his WVU players, as a Duke assistant. Lewis was one of the first African American coaches in the ACC.

So, whatever problems Duke may have had recruiting African Americans, a reluctant head coach was not among them.

Not a lack of effort or prejudice on Bucky's part, just ineffective in this area.

Probably didn't help that players were leaving the program, and existing players were not enthusiastic in their support of Waters.
The success of recruiting visits often hinges on the feedback from existing players.

[PaIronDuke]

That's a great report, let me share a small follow up. My dad was a young doctor at Duke then and had always been an avid fan of the sports programs since his undergrad days. I'm not sure how he knew McGeachy, but they were friends. My dad even worked out some sort of program with him where faculty members would sponsor a few members of the team for dinner one night, which is how it ended up that we had the whole team over for dinner one evening. As a little kid, I was awestruck by the size of those guys dunking on the hoop in our driveway, it's a memory I will always have. Anyways...from the story my dad tells me, McGeahy and James did not have a bad relationship...they had NO relationship. James wouldn't even see McGeahy in his office to discuss his job, or how he was doing, or if he would be signed on for another year. Let me restate that...he would not even see him. Can you imagine an AD not even talking to his coach?
So my dad as he is often want to do, decided to see if he could make any headway himself. His solution was to talk to James, which didn't happen, so his next thought was to talk to someone who at least knew James on a professional level, and in this case he figured that Wallace Wade would be a good person to ask. Wade was retired and living on his farm in Durham, so dad took me out with him to meet Wade and pick his brain. Maybe WW wasn't tall enough, or couldn't impress me with his dunking, so I don't remember meeting him at all, but dad did talk to him and got some insight, but little in the way of a solution.
In the end of course McGeahy's contract was not renewed and Duke got Bill Foster. In hindsight, it's hard to find any fault with that hire and it layed the groundwork for where Duke basketball is today. But thanks to Neil McGeahy, I got to eat dinner with Terry Chili and a bunch of other guys that had to duck to get in our doorway. If any of y'all run into my dad at Cameron or a football game, feel free to ask about his attempts at getting McGeahy a contract extension, he tells it way better than I do..mostly because he isn't relying on the memories of a 5 year old kid.

One of the really neat things about being a part of the "DBR community" is the history that many of the posters bring to the board-as in CB&B.Although this is not "history" per se, I wanted to add to the story above that McGeachy's daughter is Ashley McGeachy Fox, who for several years was a respected sportswriter for the Philadelphia Inquirer-quite attractive, by the way.... She left for, as I recall, an upward move-maybe to ESPN, I forget- but my point is that occasionally a Duke reference would surface in her column, and it sometimes had what I perceived to be an "edge" to it-which at the time surprised me, knowing of her dad's association with Duke. She seemed to be quite a talented, objective writer, but the comments above suggest the reason for her attitude. Godspeed, wherever you are, Ashley....

[hq2]

porn-star mustaches

Terry Chili?

[jimsumner]

Terry Chili?

Add Tate Armstrong.

[hq2]

Yeah, but as I recall, Chili was known for more than his mustache!

[77devil]

One of the really neat things about being a part of the "DBR community" is the history that many of the posters bring to the board-as in CB&B.Although this is not "history" per se, I wanted to add to the story above that McGeachy's daughter is Ashley McGeachy Fox, who for several years was a respected sportswriter for the Philadelphia Inquirer-quite attractive, by the way.... She left for, as I recall, an upward move-maybe to ESPN, I forget- but my point is that occasionally a Duke reference would surface in her column, and it sometimes had what I perceived to be an "edge" to it-which at the time surprised me, knowing of her dad's association with Duke. She seemed to be quite a talented, objective writer, but the comments above suggest the reason for her attitude. Godspeed, wherever you are, Ashley....

Never made the connection. Fox didn't use her middle/maiden name in her print byline. I do remember one of her early pieces as an Inquirer columnist at ACC tournament time. Fox described herself as a "Carolina gal" even though, in her words, she didn't attend UNC. Now the affiliation makes more sense.