Non-conference "true" road games

[feldspar]

Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
07-08: none
08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.

[Duvall]

Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
07-08: none
08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center).

Okay.

[OldPhiKap]

Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
07-08: none
08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.

Probably really 3-5, because the UNC-G game was only scheduled (I think) to get experience in the coliseum. IIRC, it hosted both the ACC tourney and a first-round NCAA pod that year. It is certainly in a different league than the other teams mentioned, which aretop shelf BE, B10 and B#? schools.

Of course, the flip side is that we only play those games against really good teams. We don't have home-and-homes with the smaller non-conference teams we play, and most of the bigger teams are scheduled in tournaments or at larger venues for revenue/experience purposes. Even on "senior" trips like Oregon for Kyle, we played in bigger venues.

It does highlight what an advantage home court is to a good team.

[Lord Ash]

Also, you do have to consider what truly constitutes a home game. Baylor in Texas not being a home game seems crazy... is it really just being in a gym that the other team is used to, and it isn't connected to the fans that are there?

That is also a pretty rough slate of traditionally tough teams.

I don't know... not terribly bothered, given how many true road games we play every year in the ACC. It is a lot of fun to go to Kansas and UCLA to play, but it doesn't break my heart that we don't. I also don't think it teaches much... K does have four titles using this scheduling strategy, after all.

[throatybeard]

Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?

[Newton_14]

Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?

That point I can get on board with. Like both of us noted, K did that regularly in the past, so it's not like he has never scheduled that way. In fairness though, K still schedules those games, he just schedules them during conference play verses the early season. We played Temple at home last year, and St Johns the year before. Our series with Georgetown just ended.

So is the beef, that folks want those games played in November, December? I would love them as well, and your reasoning at least has merit. I just get annoyed with the criticism when the critics never really point out what the issue is or what the supposed benefit is.

[blazindw]

Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
07-08: none
08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.

You forgot the L @ Georgetown in 09-10.

Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?

I agree. Though, I do feel the Champions Classic is great for us, playing MSU, Kentucky and KU. We had the Georgetown home-and-home, but they canceled it, not us. Those types of games are exciting for college basketball. We don't have any problem with our SOS, so we can afford to play one of the big time programs and it won't affect us either way.

[OldPhiKap]

Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?

Of course, we've done these with Michigan, Temple and St. John's -- which looked to be hard games when they were scheduled. And still ended up very difficult.

I would love to see a Duke-KU series with games in Phog Allen and Cameron. Ky, for some reason we do not play SEC teams. I assume it has to do with recruiting, given that we already have a strong presence in the south and K would rather play in places where we do not get as often.

So, I agree although understand why it doesn't happen as often as we all would like. And the fact that there are some forced on us -- like the ACC-B10 challenge and the preseason tourneys -- makes them hard to fit in. We've played an absolutely brutal schedule so far this year, and still have games with Temple and St. John's on the schedule which are home-away.

[throatybeard]

Of course, we've done these with Michigan, Temple and St. John's -- which looked to be hard games when they were scheduled. And still ended up very difficult.

Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.

[OldPhiKap]

Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.

Don't disagree from the fan perspective, obviously.

Michigan, you've got it down. Got us into the Detroit?Michigan market, maybe helped us land Battier who knows. St. J, I think was hotter than you say -- I still remember that @#$@#$@# game in Cameron when they beat us. First time I cursed in front of my kids, and it was not a single utterance. @#@# that @#$#@ and grab the @#$#@ rebound already!!!!!! But gave us exposre in the NYC market and with the big fan base up there.

Temple fell off after Chaney started going senile although I have fond memories of Billy King crawling into Marc Macon's grille and pulling off one of the first real upsets of the K tournament era. But again, it looked good when signed up and gave us exposure in the Philly market. Again, big alum base there too.

I don't think the issue is whether we play easier non-conference teams than KY or KU. Our schedule is brutal. K has chosen to play those games in bigger arenas where we may end up playing tournament games. It is hard to argue with that, although again as a fan I would love to play in hostile gyms. I guess the argument is that you want to get prepared for playing top nonconference teams in tournament buildings, and that's how we schedule.

[77devil]

Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.

Agree with your premise, but the Georgetown game was not basically neutral; anything but. I was there.

[feldspar]

Agree with your premise, but the Georgetown game was not basically neutral; anything but. I was there.

I'm gonna have to concur on this one. I was at the 05-06 game when Duke lost by three or four. My wife and I both had our Duke gear on, and no kidding, I feared a little bit for our safety all the way to the metro.

[dcdevil2009]

It seems like there are some undertones in the home and home v. the away-neutral site argument about which fans want what. If you're in Durham or have season tickets, you'd get the benefit of seeing the home end of that matchup live, but for the away games, it's difficult for Duke alumni in the area to get tickets. By scheduling the road/semi-neutral site games, it's much easier for fans to get tickets. If you replace one of the MSG or Meadowlands games with a home and home, it drastically reduces the number fans and alumni who are able to see the team play live.

Now if there's actually a competitive reason why a home and home is better that an away game in a tournament-type setting, then maybe scheduling it is a good idea. But if it doesn't make a difference competitively, then I would prefer to schedule the high profile out of conference games where the most fans can see them live. (Although if I'm ever able to get season tickets in Cameron, I'd shamelessly switch sides in favor of a home and home)

[crimsonandblue]

Kansas is playing a great schedule this year. UK, Duke, Georgetown, UCLA, and Ohio State. One of those games is in Allen. One.

There comes a point when for the good of the game, for the enjoyment of home fans, and to reward loyal season ticket holders who pay beaucoup dollars to sit through Towson at home, there should be a guarantee of a great non-con game on the schedule. There just should. Kansas has one this year in tOSU. And we'll probably get drilled. But, the fans deserve it. And our budgets and preparations for a March tournament and whatever else should sometimes take a back seat to a guaranteed great game.

And frankly, playing great games in November might help give meaning to a regular season that's crumbling with growing conferences (double round robin Big XII-II for the win) and all eyes on March.

I know there are revenue reasons and recruiting reasons and whatever else. The big schools still ought to do it and I think they'd ultimately be rewarded for it.

[dcdevil2009]

There comes a point when for the good of the game, for the enjoyment of home fans, and to reward loyal season ticket holders who pay beaucoup dollars to sit through Towson at home, there should be a guarantee of a great non-con game on the schedule. There just should. Kansas has one this year in tOSU. And we'll probably get drilled. But, the fans deserve it. And our budgets and preparations for a March tournament and whatever else should sometimes take a back seat to a guaranteed great game.

This is exactly what I was talking about. I'm all for a big non-conference home game, but if it comes at the expense of a NY/NJ or DC game I'd rather have the neutral site game. Yes, season tickets are expensive and I'm sorry you feel obligated to sit through the Towson-esque games every year, but I would rather the team give back to the Duke alumni outside of Durham who might not otherwise be able to see Duke play live.

[Billy Dat]

I, too, used to pine for home-and-home match-ups with the royalty of college basketball until I started to believe that K's reasons for pushing us toward larger neutral sites were largely financial.

At some point in the past 10-15 years, I think K started trying to figure out how he was going to, essentially, endow the men's basketball program so that it had the best possible chance of thriving after he stepped down and, ultimately, passed on. If you devour his every interview, he frequently makes reference to the fact that, unlike big state universities, there isn't an enormous alumni base for Duke. He often brings this up in relation to "Duke bashing", but also in regards to finances. I think he also knows, through a history of changing University presidents, that his power wasn't absolute. One way to try and buy himself and the program autonomy was to make it even more of a money machine, one that relied less and less on University funding.

I don't know the financials, and I don't know how much we make off those neutral site games, but I know it's got to be a lot more than we'd make off of a home and home. Whenever Duke rents out MSG, there is always a big sponsor or two attached, plus ESPN or one of the networks. I have heard K say, in interviews, that many, if not all, of the Men's Basketball scholarships are endowed by the program itself. Andy Katz, traveling with Duke this summer, said that our programs travels like a pro team, and that the difference between us and everyone else, in that regard, is night and day.

If playing those neutral site games instead of traditional home and homes with other traditional powers enables all of the financial freedom and future success of the program that I think it does, then I am all for it.

[-jk]

The atmosphere at some true OOC road games is so over-the-top that it's representative of nothing else we'll see all year, and so doesn't offer much of a useful learning experience. In the ACC, it's bad sometimes (think Comcast and VaTech at their worst), but it's predictable and necessary. At some of the other schools, who only get the occasional shot at us, they simply take it too far.

I think K just doesn't see the value in that much raw emotion and the effect it may have on the team.

That said, we've recently had home-and-homes with St John's and G'Town (will that one get restarted?), and we've done the more recent B1G challenges as home games on our turn.

-jk

[Devilsfan]

I guess some of us have never been to a home Maryland game. Freedom of speech thrives there ( just ask JJ or Jon or a seven year old watching the game on ESPN) not to mention a "blues bros." country bar scene reenactment where fans throw bottles at people that root for visiting teams.

[Devilsfan]

I don't like those "true road games". We don't lose that often but if I remember correctly we lost at wisconsin, we lost at Georgetown and we just lost at tOSU. I like K not scheduling too many of these games.

[UrinalCake]

I don't like those "true road games". We don't lose that often but if I remember correctly we lost at wisconsin, we lost at Georgetown and we just lost at tOSU. I like K not scheduling too many of these games.

I've heard K say that he "tries to schedule a loss." By that he means that he wants his OOC schedule to be tough enough that he'll probably lose a game. If he schedules with the mindset of just wanting to not lose, then he's not adequately preparing his team. Losing sucks but in the big picture the experience of playing these games can be beneficial. The Wisconsin and Georgetown losses both happened in the 2009-2010 season, and we all know how that turned out.