Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Non-conference "true" road games

    Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

    05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
    06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    07-08: none
    08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
    09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
    10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

    Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

    05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
    06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    07-08: none
    08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
    09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
    10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center).
    Okay.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

    05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
    06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    07-08: none
    08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
    09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
    10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

    Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.
    Probably really 3-5, because the UNC-G game was only scheduled (I think) to get experience in the coliseum. IIRC, it hosted both the ACC tourney and a first-round NCAA pod that year. It is certainly in a different league than the other teams mentioned, which aretop shelf BE, B10 and B#? schools.

    Of course, the flip side is that we only play those games against really good teams. We don't have home-and-homes with the smaller non-conference teams we play, and most of the bigger teams are scheduled in tournaments or at larger venues for revenue/experience purposes. Even on "senior" trips like Oregon for Kyle, we played in bigger venues.

    It does highlight what an advantage home court is to a good team.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  4. #4
    Also, you do have to consider what truly constitutes a home game. Baylor in Texas not being a home game seems crazy... is it really just being in a gym that the other team is used to, and it isn't connected to the fans that are there?

    That is also a pretty rough slate of traditionally tough teams.

    I don't know... not terribly bothered, given how many true road games we play every year in the ACC. It is a lot of fun to go to Kansas and UCLA to play, but it doesn't break my heart that we don't. I also don't think it teaches much... K does have four titles using this scheduling strategy, after all.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

    05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
    06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    07-08: none
    08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
    09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
    10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

    Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.
    The thing is, does it really matter? They play 8 true road games in conference every year. All tournament play is on neutral courts, so unless the non-conf road games are preparing for the conference road games in pursuit of the regular season title, what's the benefit?

    I just think the whole thing is overblown. Over the years Duke has played Home & Away series with numerous fine schools like Michigan, UCLA, Georgetown, BC (Prior to BC joining the ACC), St John's, Purdue, Iowa, Temple, etc. I am sure I am missing several more.

    During those years, Duke has won numerous ACC Regular Season, and ACC Tournaments, made the Final Four umpteen times, and won 4 National Titles.

    Is the argument, they would have won more championships had they played a few more non-conference road games during that time?

  6. #6
    I think it was Colin Cowherd who was making a point on the radio this week that when picking who's going to win the NCAA tournament, just ignore any "true" road losses ... kids are 18, 19 ... they get influenced there more than pros ... none of the NCAA games are true road games ... just look and see what upside a team has (do they win at home and at neutral sites) and ignore bad losses on the road ...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

    But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

    One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

    But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

    One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?
    That point I can get on board with. Like both of us noted, K did that regularly in the past, so it's not like he has never scheduled that way. In fairness though, K still schedules those games, he just schedules them during conference play verses the early season. We played Temple at home last year, and St Johns the year before. Our series with Georgetown just ended.

    So is the beef, that folks want those games played in November, December? I would love them as well, and your reasoning at least has merit. I just get annoyed with the criticism when the critics never really point out what the issue is or what the supposed benefit is.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Just ran the numbers. With Tuesday's loss, Duke is now 4-5 in non-conference "true" road games (being defined as playing in an opponent's arena, not at a "neutral" site in the same city as our opponent, e.g. Temple at the Wells Fargo Center) since the 2005-2006 season.

    05-06: W @ Indiana (Assembly Hall), L @ Georgetown (Verizon Center)
    06-07: W @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    07-08: none
    08-09: W @ Purdue (Mackey Arena), L @ Michigan (Crisler Arena)
    09-10: L @ Wisconsin (Kohl Center)
    10-11: W @ UNCG (Greensboro Coliseum), L @ St. John's (Madison Square Garden)
    11-12: L @ OSU (Schottenstein Center)

    Duke does not have another "true" non-conference road game on the schedule this year.
    You forgot the L @ Georgetown in 09-10.

    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

    But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

    One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?
    I agree. Though, I do feel the Champions Classic is great for us, playing MSU, Kentucky and KU. We had the Georgetown home-and-home, but they canceled it, not us. Those types of games are exciting for college basketball. We don't have any problem with our SOS, so we can afford to play one of the big time programs and it won't affect us either way.
    Check out the DBR Podcast!

    2003-2004 HLM
    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

    But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

    One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?
    Of course, we've done these with Michigan, Temple and St. John's -- which looked to be hard games when they were scheduled. And still ended up very difficult.

    I would love to see a Duke-KU series with games in Phog Allen and Cameron. Ky, for some reason we do not play SEC teams. I assume it has to do with recruiting, given that we already have a strong presence in the south and K would rather play in places where we do not get as often.

    So, I agree although understand why it doesn't happen as often as we all would like. And the fact that there are some forced on us -- like the ACC-B10 challenge and the preseason tourneys -- makes them hard to fit in. We've played an absolutely brutal schedule so far this year, and still have games with Temple and St. John's on the schedule which are home-away.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Of course, we've done these with Michigan, Temple and St. John's -- which looked to be hard games when they were scheduled. And still ended up very difficult.
    Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

    If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

    We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.
    Last edited by throatybeard; 12-01-2011 at 10:54 PM.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

    If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

    We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.
    Don't disagree from the fan perspective, obviously.

    Michigan, you've got it down. Got us into the Detroit?Michigan market, maybe helped us land Battier who knows. St. J, I think was hotter than you say -- I still remember that @#$@#$@# game in Cameron when they beat us. First time I cursed in front of my kids, and it was not a single utterance. @#@# that @#$#@ and grab the @#$#@ rebound already!!!!!! But gave us exposre in the NYC market and with the big fan base up there.

    Temple fell off after Chaney started going senile although I have fond memories of Billy King crawling into Marc Macon's grille and pulling off one of the first real upsets of the K tournament era. But again, it looked good when signed up and gave us exposure in the Philly market. Again, big alum base there too.

    I don't think the issue is whether we play easier non-conference teams than KY or KU. Our schedule is brutal. K has chosen to play those games in bigger arenas where we may end up playing tournament games. It is hard to argue with that, although again as a fan I would love to play in hostile gyms. I guess the argument is that you want to get prepared for playing top nonconference teams in tournament buildings, and that's how we schedule.
    1991 -- 1992 -- 2001 -- 2010 -- 2015

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    All tournament play is on neutral courts, so unless the non-conf road games are preparing for the conference road games in pursuit of the regular season title, what's the benefit?
    Yeah, except you do run the risk of playing Baylor in Houston, Butler in Indianapolis, Arizona in Anaheim, etc. Scheduling an out-of-conference road game during the season helps prepare you for these situations - a different floor, non-ACC refs, unfamiliar opponent and style of play, etc. Playing on a neutral site like MSG or the Greensboro Coliseum is not the same as playing in the other team's gym, and the experience can only help develop your team.

    In 2009-2010 we lost at Wisconsin, at Georgetown (I think this was technically a neutral site game but come on, it was in D.C. and the President was there) and also at NC State. I remember thinking at the time that we just weren't a good road team. Yet I can say now that I think the experience helped prepare us for those later NCAA games (Baylor, Butler) that were virtual road games. I am all in favor of scheduling true road games.

  14. #14

    road/neutral

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Yeah, except you do run the risk of playing Baylor in Houston, Butler in Indianapolis, Arizona in Anaheim, etc. Scheduling an out-of-conference road game during the season helps prepare you for these situations - a different floor, non-ACC refs, unfamiliar opponent and style of play, etc. Playing on a neutral site like MSG or the Greensboro Coliseum is not the same as playing in the other team's gym ...

    .
    But it IS the same as playing Baylor in Houston or Butler in the Dome in Indy or Arizona in Anaheim ...

    This thread started out deferentiating between playing true road games -- like Ohio State -- and away games on neutral courts ... like Temple in the Wells Fargo Arena. We play plenty of semi-road games like that. In the last three years, we've played Kansas State in Kansas City ... we played UConn in New York City ... we played Oregon in Portland ... we played Iowa State in Chicago ...

    To repeat what has been said over and over in this (and similar) thread already -- you don't play true road games in the NCAA Tournament. You DO sometimes play in hostile arenas, but they are ALWAYS big arenas that are at least somewhat neutral. And those are exactly the kind of games K schedules with such frequency.

    Now, the argument that as a fan you'd rather see Kentucky come to Cameron rather than Presbyterian or Colorado State ... that's an argument that mades sense. I don't really agree, but it's a fair point of view (as opposed to the oft-repeated, we need to play on the road in non-conference to prepare for the NCAA).

    To put it simply: Under K, Duke has the best NCAA winning percentage of any school in the country. Period. I kind of think K knows what it best takes to prepare his team for NCAA play.

    PS: The MCI/Verizon Center IS Georgetown's homecourt. I know they have a smaller on-campus arena (so does St. John's), but over the last few years, they've only plyed a handful of games at the 2,400 seat McDougald Center. As near as I can tell EVERY home game this season is in the Verizon Center.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    PS: The MCI/Verizon Center IS Georgetown's homecourt. I know they have a smaller on-campus arena (so does St. John's), but over the last few years, they've only plyed a handful of games at the 2,400 seat McDougald Center. As near as I can tell EVERY home game this season is in the Verizon Center.
    They were all in the Verizon Center last season as well - I had season tickets, and exactly zero of them were to games at the main campus gym. Claiming the Verizon Center isn't Georgetown's home gym is the equivalent of saying Cameron isn't a home court because of Card.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Before someone or another tells us all that the only purpose of non-conference games is to prepare for the NCAAT (as is usually the case in true road game threads), I'm going to make a pre-emptive countermove.

    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.

    But why would it kill us to have one--just one!--home&home with a UK or a KU for a decade or so? Furthermore, somehow Mike Krzyzewski managed to prepare his teams for the NCAAT back when we still had home&homes with major programs in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not like missing one neutral site game at MSG against Xavier sinks the whole postseason.

    One game every [other] year that isn't forced on us by the ACC-B1G challenge. Like IU-UK or UK-UNC. It's not much to ask. We played KU in Maui, completely by accident. Can you imagine how electric a Cameron-Allen annual matchup would be?
    Totally agree. No excuse that we don't have an annual home and home with either Kentucky, Kansas or even U.Conn.

    Also, while try as a I might to avoid beating the dead horse for the jillionth time about wanting us to play more "true" road games, I personally think true road games are much better NCAA tournament prep than "neutral road games" like playing Temple at the Wells Fargo Center. While it is true that NCAA games are played on neutral courts, when Duke is involved they are almost never neutral crowds -- unless we are playing in North Carolina or New Jersey (and sometimes, even then), our NCAA tournament games bear much more resemblance to road games than they do neutral floors (e.g., Kentucky 1998, Indiana 2002, LSU 2006, Baylor 2010)

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Another purpose of non-conference games is to entertain the fans. If you're a major football team who schedules Florida Atlantic, Gardner-Webb, Montana State, and Iowa State, your fanbase is going to be bored stiff until they hit the SEC schedule, no offense to those schools I mentioned. And I get that we usually schedule the best teams in the little conferences, and I think that's good.
    I'm sure this is on purpose, but I wanted to acknowledge the Throaty-implication here and say that it made me laugh a little.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The City of Brotherly Love except when it's cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Michigan was THE non-conference matchup for us for over a decade. Basically tossed after Amaker became coach. St John's beat us a couple times but is not a compelling premiere non-con opponent and we ended up in MSG again. Temple...who cares. I don't mean to dis these schools at all. Georgetown...basically neutral site. This was on purpose. These are places where there are a lot of Duke alums.

    If Kentucky can play KU, IU and Carolina, we can have one premiere annual non-conference home&home. One. One.

    We played the fighting Izzos in New York, not in East Lansing. No one is arguing you get rid of the NY/NJ game. One premiere home&home. One.
    Agree with your premise, but the Georgetown game was not basically neutral; anything but. I was there.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by 77devil View Post
    Agree with your premise, but the Georgetown game was not basically neutral; anything but. I was there.
    I'm gonna have to concur on this one. I was at the 05-06 game when Duke lost by three or four. My wife and I both had our Duke gear on, and no kidding, I feared a little bit for our safety all the way to the metro.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    It seems like there are some undertones in the home and home v. the away-neutral site argument about which fans want what. If you're in Durham or have season tickets, you'd get the benefit of seeing the home end of that matchup live, but for the away games, it's difficult for Duke alumni in the area to get tickets. By scheduling the road/semi-neutral site games, it's much easier for fans to get tickets. If you replace one of the MSG or Meadowlands games with a home and home, it drastically reduces the number fans and alumni who are able to see the team play live.

    Now if there's actually a competitive reason why a home and home is better that an away game in a tournament-type setting, then maybe scheduling it is a good idea. But if it doesn't make a difference competitively, then I would prefer to schedule the high profile out of conference games where the most fans can see them live. (Although if I'm ever able to get season tickets in Cameron, I'd shamelessly switch sides in favor of a home and home)

Similar Threads

  1. "Stepping out of Conference"
    By wilson in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-27-2011, 09:36 AM
  2. "Our House Chant" Big Games Only or Every Home Win?
    By Newton_14 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 10-26-2010, 01:39 AM
  3. Seth Davis dings our lack of true road games
    By Billy Dat in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 02-27-2008, 07:42 PM
  4. "CBS not offering local games as constants in High Definition"
    By DankeShane in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-15-2007, 07:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •