MBB Duke 87 Bellarmine 62 Post Game Thread

[Newton_14]

Discuss the game in this thread.

[CDu]

[Copied and pasted from my post in the in-game thread]

The good:

- We won comfortably after a bumpy stretch late in the first half.
- The Plumlees got a lot of dunk attempts. Mason looked especially active. I can only remember one non-dunk/layup for the Plumlees, and that was a little turnaround 5-7 footer for Mason. Granted, they were much bigger and more athletic than Bellarmine's bigs. But it was nice to see them aggressive and involved.
- Cook looked comfortable out there in limited minutes.
- Thornton showed some good instincts away from the ball. I think he gets a bit too much credit for his on-ball defense (which I don't think is as good as some suggest), but he's been fantastic at helping on switches and picking off or tipping passes.
- Curry looked good out there. His 3pt shot wasn't falling, but he still averaged over a point per shot and added 6 rebounds, 5 assists, and 3 steals. I'd not expect 16.7% 3pt shooting for him on too many nights.
- No one got hurt.
- Rivers seemed to play within the offense rather than forcing the action. So much of his gifts are one-on-one gifts that I feel like it's a difficult balancing act for him to find his niche on a talented team. I think he did a solid job of it tonight.

The bad:

- Bellarmine exploited our defense occasionally with some good ball movement and nice off-ball movement. We lost some assignments at times.
- Our perimeter shooting was terrible.
- Dawkins looked about as involved as he often did last year on offense.
- Murphy and Gbinije looked like freshmen out there (not unexpected, since they are indeed freshmen).

The other:
- The team went with a rotation of the Plumlees, Kelly, and Hairston exclusively at the 4 and 5 spots. I'd expect to see this to be the case throughout the year. The "3" spot was manned by Murphy, Dawkins, Gbinije, and at times Rivers (when we went really small with two of Cook/Curry/Thornton). I can imagine the starting spots varying at the 3, 4, and 5 spots a bit throughout the year. I'd be bit surprised if Curry and Rivers don't start every game at the guard spots.
- No Marshall tonight.
- Deeper rotation tonight than I'd expect once the season starts. Along the same lines, a more equitable split of minutes than I'd expect once the season starts.

[Native]

The Plumlees got a lot of dunk attempts. Mason looked especially active. I can only remember one non-dunk/layup for the Plumlees, and that was a little turnaround 5-7 footer for Mason. Granted, they were much bigger and more athletic than Bellarmine's bigs. But it was nice to see them aggressive and involved.

I disagree here. In the battle of the brothers, I'd have to give the edge to Miles — he played at a higher level on a much more consistent basis than Mason, who really only got going in the second half. Just my opinion.

But it was especially nice that our big men got a lot of looks tonight, especially with Tony Parker in the house. I hope he paid close attention to Miles's play tonight.

[CDu]

I disagree here. In the battle of the brothers, I'd have to give the edge to Miles — he played at a higher level on a much more consistent basis than Mason, who really only got going in the second half. Just my opinion.

But it was especially nice that our big men got a lot of looks tonight, especially with Tony Parker in the house. I hope he paid close attention to Miles's play tonight.

I was impressed with both Plumlees' energy. And I'd say Mason was pretty active in the first half, too. And why should his second half be discounted? Last I checked, it's a 40-minute game. And Mason's activity came when the game was still close, so it's not like he was just piling on stats in a blowout.

For the record, Mason finished with 16 points, 9 rebounds, 2 steals, 1 block, and 0 fouls in 23 minutes. Miles finished with 14 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals and 3 fouls in 20 minutes. So I wouldn't say it's a clear edge to either. Both played well. Neither showed an expansion of their games, but both played well. My point about Mason was more in reference to complaints about him in China/Dubai.

[MCFinARL]

I wanted to respond to a comment in the game thread but it has already been closed. Someone--edit--CDu--I see your post is in this thread now-- mentioned that Andre Dawkins appeared uninvolved in the offense. I didn't see the game, but it sounded as if Murphy, who started instead of Dawkins, looked pretty rough as well.

Obviously, I don't know what happens in practices. And I know Coach K is supposed to be the master of psychology and motivation. But I wonder, looking purely from the outside, if K and Dawkins are on the same wavelength. Last year, it often seemed that any error made by Andre (and there were some) elicited benching and/or harsh words from the coaches, while Seth and Ryan, among others, were allowed more room for error. This summer, It seemed Andre played very well in China, but Coach K barely mentioned him in interviews, instead heaping praise on Curry, Kelly, and Miles. Now K chooses to start a hardworking but inexperienced frosh over Andre at the beginning of the season. Maybe this is supposed to motivate Andre, but I can see how it might also make him feel a little uncertain about his role, wondering whether the coaches have any confidence in him.

I get it that Duke has a lot of good players and people who want minutes have to step up. But people have a tendency to live up (or down) to others' expectations. If Andre is getting the message that he's not a key part of the game plan, or at least not getting the message that he is a key part, it may not be totally on Andre if he looks a little uninvolved.

[Native]

I was impressed with both Plumlees' energy. And I'd say Mason was pretty active in the first half, too. And why should his second half be discounted? Last I checked, it's a 40-minute game. And Mason's activity came when the game was still close, so it's not like he was just piling on stats in a blowout.

For the record, Mason finished with 16 points, 9 rebounds, 2 steals, 1 block, and 0 fouls in 23 minutes. Miles finished with 14 points, 8 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals and 3 fouls in 20 minutes. So I wouldn't say it's a clear edge to either. Both played well. Neither showed an expansion of their games, but both played well. My point about Mason was more in reference to complaints about him in China/Dubai.

Fair enough. No knock on Mason - I thought both were a breath of fresh air for our inside game and looked improved even since China/Dubai. I hadn't had a chance to check the box score, either.

And I wasn't discounting his second half - just that most of his activity (which was well-needed) came during that time period.

[CDu]

I wanted to respond to a comment in the game thread but it has already been closed. Someone mentioned that Andre Dawkins appeared uninvolved in the offense. I didn't see the game, but it sounded as if Murphy, who started instead of Dawkins, looked pretty rough as well.

Obviously, I don't know what happens in practices. And I know Coach K is supposed to be the master of psychology and motivation. But I wonder, looking purely from the outside, if K and Dawkins are on the same wavelength. Last year, it often seemed that any error made by Andre (and there were some) elicited benching and/or harsh words from the coaches, while Seth and Ryan, among others, were allowed more room for error. This summer, It seemed Andre played very well in China, but Coach K barely mentioned him in interviews, instead heaping praise on Curry, Kelly, and Miles. Now K chooses to start a hardworking but inexperienced frosh over Andre at the beginning of the season. Maybe this is supposed to motivate Andre, but I can see how it might also make him feel a little uncertain about his role, wondering whether the coaches have any confidence in him.

I get it that Duke has a lot of good players and people who want minutes have to step up. But people have a tendency to live up (or down) to others' expectations. If Andre is getting the message that he's not a key part of the game plan, or at least not getting the message that he is a key part, it may not be totally on Andre if he looks a little uninvolved.

I'm guessing your comment is in response to my post. None of the three options at the "3" looked good tonight.

However, I'd say this: I don't want to speculate on what is or isn't going on with Coach K and Dawkins. But it's still on Dawkins for looking uninvolved. He's been in the Duke system for 3 years. It's on him to figure out how to get involved. I'm quite sure the coaching staff has made (and will continue to make) an effort to explain his role and what they expect of him.

That said, I'm not worried about Dawkins right now. I'd expect him to play better against Shaw.

[MCFinARL]

I'm guessing your comment is in response to my post. None of the three options at the "3" looked good tonight.

However, I'd say this: I don't want to speculate on what is or isn't going on with Coach K and Dawkins. But it's still on Dawkins for looking uninvolved. He's been in the Duke system for 3 years. It's on him to figure out how to get involved. I'm quite sure the coaching staff has made (and will continue to make) an effort to explain his role and what they expect of him.

Fair enough. I'm one of the many DBR posters with a soft spot for Dawkins (at least there seem to be a lot of us) and it may be influencing my thinking a little bit. It just seems like there ought to be a way to help him play more consistently at the level he shows in his better games--but again, I'm just making guesses from the cheap seats.
And yes, it was in response to your post--I edited after I saw you had reposted in this thread.

Just saw the last line of your post--which you may have added after I responded. And of course, you are right. It's far too soon to draw any conclusions about any player's season and the next game may look very different.

[Newton_14]

Good post CDU. I got in from the game a little while ago, and may have a better write up tomorrow as I am dead tired from a long week, but here are my initial thoughts.

The starting 5 took me by suprise a little, but with Murph having a tough night out there, expect a 3 guard starting lineup Wed against Shaw. More on that later. A couple of things to consider. Having Bellarmine as the opponent, was great for us. They are the defending Div II National Champions, with a lot of returning players, who played really well and were a well oiled machine at time. I think it helped us tremendously that our guys had to work to beat them vs a 40 point snooze fest. Plus, Bellarmine shot the ball really well most of the game.

Make no mistake this is Seth Curry's team. He is our leader, so pencil him in. There is a lot of talent on this team, but it will take time for K to mold them into a top-notch team. I think they will get there, just not as quickly as the last 2 years. As of right now, our true guards (Seth, Tyler, Austin, Quinn) and our bigs are a good bit ahead of where our wings (Dawk/Murph/Silent G) are, in pretty much all phases of the game. There is much work to do with the wings. Their defensive rotations was pretty sub-par in much of the first half. That improved in the 2nd half, but tonight we were much better with 3 guards on the floor than with one of the true wings.

The Plums were active, and both actually scored without dunking CDU. Miles had a nice catch and lay-in in heavy traffic. Also had several post moves where he got fouled. Coach K stated after the game, that once we get in the bonus, he wants perimeter players feeding the bigs inside to draw fouls or driving to draw fouls. He stated that once we get in the bonus, he does not want to see contested jumpshots. One thing I love about Cook is he tries hard to feed the bigs inside when he is in there. Tyler does as well, but not quite as much as Cook.

Austin had a solid game, and seems to be improving game over game with making quick decisions on the wing. Had several really good drives tonight, and finished strong. He got killed on one drive and it looked bad but he shook it off once the cob webs cleared. Took a shoulder to the chest from a really big Bell defender. Austin still has much work to do on defense. That is one thing to follow as the season progresses. I think he has the tools to be a good defender but he will have to work at it.

Wings: All 3 struggled on defensive rotations, with Dawkins playing better defense than the other two. Andre has to assert himself more on the offensive end as well. In fairness we did not run any sets for him until the very end when he knocked in a mid-range jumper on a designed play. His 3 point shot was off but so was everyone else's wearing white. Just an off night from a team perspective from behind the line. I have not given up on any of the wings, especially Andre, and it is early. Murph and Gbinije definitely have Freshman-itis right now. If that continue's, I expect we will see the 3-Guard lineup with Tyler or Cook on the floor with Seth, Austin, and 2 Bigs in the short-term.

Seth played really well, 3-Ball notwithstanding, and I really liked the play of Tyler and Cook. Tyler ran the team well, and was a disruptive out there on D like always. The dropped weight has helped his quickness. I really liked what I saw from Cook as well. His defense is not bad at all. Not sure how that rumor got started actually. I thought he played really well out there. Great quickness, can drive and dish, and drive and finish. We are in great shape PG wise the next 4 years. Way too early to tell, but as of right now I would have to believe Cook plays his way into the bottom end of the normal rotation. Lots of talent there.

Ryan played fine, but not spectacular. Josh has definitely improved and I expect will play more this year than last year. He works hard out there and still has that nice touch on his jumper. I was pleased with his year over year improvement. Ryan and the 2 elder Plums will handle most of the 4/5 minutes with Josh backing them up in cases of foul trouble or injury.

All in all, despite the last 8 minutes of the 1st Half when Bellarmine cut the lead to 1, it was a good start to the season. Looking forward to Shaw. I will be shocked if the starting lineup for that game isn't Tyler, Seth, Austin, Mason, Miles. We will see though.

[CDu]

The Plums were active, and both actually scored without dunking CDU. Miles had a nice catch and lay-in in heavy traffic. Also had several post moves where he got fouled.

In fairness, I said dunks/layups. And to clarify, I was referring to FG shooting only with that comment. Miles didn't have a FG that wasn't a dunk or layup. He did hit 6-8 from the line, which is very nice. Mason had only one non-dunk/layup, and that was the turnaround jumper I mentioned.

In a game where we have such a size/athleticism advantage inside, the bigs should be expected to play well. And they did, so that's good.

Ryan played fine, but not spectacular. Josh has definitely improved and I expect will play more this year than last year. He works hard out there and still has that nice touch on his jumper. I was pleased with his year over year improvement. Ryan and the 2 elder Plums will handle most of the 4/5 minutes with Josh backing them up in cases of foul trouble or injury.

I agree that Hairston has improved from last year to this year and will play more this year. But I doubt he plays a whole lot more this year. I'd expect the Plumlees and Kelly to be in the 70 mpg range. That leaves about 10 mpg for Hairston. It's definitely more than the 5 mpg he averaged last year (when including DNP), but not a whole lot more.

That said, it's nice to know that we can go to him in a pinch when needed.

[loldevilz]

Does anybody think that the best situation for Duke might be two sets of bigs like in 2010? Miles and Hairston the starters, Kelly and Mason would then come in together. I feel like that would make Duke extremely difficult to beat down low.

[Duvall]

Does anybody think that the best situation for Duke might be two sets of bigs like in 2010? Miles and Hairston the starters, Kelly and Mason would then come in together. I feel like that would make Duke extremely difficult to beat down low.

How is that better than a rotation of Miles, Mason and Kelly?

[SCMatt33]

I think it's important to note that against a team like Bellarmine, some things are more relevant to take note of than others:

Honestly, it's a small thing, but I was extremely impressed with Miles going 6-8 from the line. Foul shots are foul shots no matter who you play. Sure, they may not be as important or there might not be as much fatigue in a game like this, but the Plumlees are going to get sent to the line this year. If they can make even a decent amount of their attempts, it will force opponents to play them more honestly and give them a better chance to score in the post. Miles shot under 60% last year, and Mason shot under 45. They don't need to be Scheyer or Redick at the line, but if Mason could get close to 60 and Miles above 65, it would be huge for this team. Between the two of them, its more reasonable to expect a big improvement from Miles. 6-8 is a small sample size for sure, but its better than 4-8.

What didn't impress me as much were the 30 points and several dunks between the Plumlees. It's fun to watch and all, but from what I can gather from the radio broadcast, they got a lot of garbage points and easy dunks on breaks and broken defensive plays. Even when they did score on someone guarding them, it couldn't impress given Bellarmine's lack of size and talent on the interior. Mason and Miles really couldn't do any better than an "as expected" in this game given their opponent, but again, they certainly could have disappointed as well.

On the bad side of the ledger, I was concerned with the perimeter D. Again, I only listened to the game, so a lot can be missed here, but it seemed like Bellarmine moved the ball well and got a lot of open three point looks. Especially given that outside shooting was the only place that this team was going to hurt Duke, it was disappointing to see the perimeter D come up a bit short here. Without an elite on ball defender like Nolan or Kyrie, the team needs to really step up in playing D together, which it seems like they didn't do tonight.

A few of the bad things didn't bother me so much. A lot will be made of the poor shooting, but it was just a bad night for everyone. Now, "just a bad night" can and has ended Duke seasons before, but there's not much you can do to make them disappear. You have several guys on this team who are much better from the outside than driving or posting up (in Kelly's case), so you have to ride that. When that's the makeup of your team, you can't do anything to avoid the bad nights, you just have to hope that they don't come at the wrong time or that maybe the defense can bail you out. The other one that didn't bother me was the high turnovers. 19 turnovers is way too much for a team like Bellarmine to get, but these guys haven't played a game since August, and it was also the first game in Cameron in a Duke uniform for the freshman, so a little rust is ok.

[CDu]

Does anybody think that the best situation for Duke might be two sets of bigs like in 2010? Miles and Hairston the starters, Kelly and Mason would then come in together. I feel like that would make Duke extremely difficult to beat down low.

Not really. I think the Plumlees and Kelly are clearly ahead of Hairston. And the separation amongst the top three is not as much as the separation between the top three and Hairston. As such, I think it makes more sense to rotate the first three as much as possible and let foul trouble determine how much Hairston needs to play.

[loldevilz]

How is that better than a rotation of Miles, Mason and Kelly?

1. Hairston can actually guard mobile undersized big men. Duke will definitely hit some during the NCAA tourney.
2. More fouls to give.
3. More defined roles. The three big rotation means each big is playing both the four and the five.

[loran16]

Does anybody think that the best situation for Duke might be two sets of bigs like in 2010? Miles and Hairston the starters, Kelly and Mason would then come in together. I feel like that would make Duke extremely difficult to beat down low.

Not exactly comparable. In 2010 the two pairs were the pair of seniors and the pair of younger big guys. That's why they were set up that way really, with Zoubek aand Lance grabbing the majority of minutes after Zoubek broke out against Maryland.

You don't have a comparable here - well you do, but it'd be Hairston in the 2nd pair, not the first. None of our 3 big men are comparable to Zoubek (better scorers but far worse rebounders), and Ryan is completely different from any of the 4 really used big men from that year (yes I know he was the little used 5th guy on that team).

Comparison doesn't work.

[Kedsy]

Based on the box score, it's interesting that the two guys whose lines were most disappointing were Andre (15 minutes, 1 made shot) and Ryan (1 rebound), who were also the two guys I expected to start who ended up on the bench. Cause, or effect?

[wk2109]

Considering that last season Duke 'only' beat Cal Poly (the previous season's D-II champ) by 21 with Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle, Bellarmine is this season's D-II preseason #1 team, Duke shot poorly from three, and this was Duke's first exhibition game (the Cal Poly game was Duke's second exhibition game last year)...this was a pretty good win for Duke.

I didn't watch the game and have only read the threads on this board and a couple of article recaps, but it seems like K is going to have a tough time shortening his rotation -- particularly at the 1-3 spots -- because Tyler, Quinn, Andre, Alex, and Michael offer such different things (e.g. passing, defense, shooting, size, experience, and athleticism) and thus have little separation between them. I think the players might be particularly challenged this year to be mentally ready to see their minutes vary greatly from game to game yet still be able to contribute during whatever playing time they get. K likened Kyle to a queen chess piece last season -- he'll need to make use of this season's rooks, bishops, knights, and pawns extra creatively this year.

[davekay1971]

I will be shocked if the starting lineup for that game isn't Tyler, Seth, Austin, Mason, Miles. We will see though.

That was running through my mind also - moving Austin over to the 3, Seth to the shooting guard spot, and rotating Tyler and Quinn at the point. That doesn't leave Dre out of the mix - he could earn significant minutes backing up both Seth and Austin. Dre could also earn his way into the starting lineup - in K's system that is always a possibility, to earn your way in to (or out of) starting minutes.

[Newton_14]

Considering that last season Duke 'only' beat Cal Poly (the previous season's D-II champ) by 21 with Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle, Bellarmine is this season's D-II preseason #1 team, Duke shot poorly from three, and this was Duke's first exhibition game (the Cal Poly game was Duke's second exhibition game last year)...this was a pretty good win for Duke.

I didn't watch the game and have only read the threads on this board and a couple of article recaps, but it seems like K is going to have a tough time shortening his rotation -- particularly at the 1-3 spots -- because Tyler, Quinn, Andre, Alex, and Michael offer such different things (e.g. passing, defense, shooting, size, experience, and athleticism) and thus have little separation between them. I think the players might be particularly challenged this year to be mentally ready to see their minutes vary greatly from game to game yet still be able to contribute during whatever playing time they get. K likened Kyle to a queen chess piece last season -- he'll need to make use of this season's rooks, bishops, knights, and pawns extra creatively this year.

Based on what I saw last night, there is definite separation with Alex/Michael and the others. Once the tougher games start, I don't see Michael being in the rotation, and Alex would be in the 10 -15 minute range. It's early, so that definitely could change with Murphy. I don't see if changing with Gbinije. It is going to take time for him to develop.