FB: Virginia Tech 14, Duke 10

[CDu]

CDu, I'm normally in the same ballpark as you, but you're off here. If you miss on the 3rd and 2 late, you have one play left that is for all the marbles. You don't convert on the ensuing 4th and 2, and the game is over.

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

[grossbus]

i hate being patronized by the opposing coaches and players after they beat us.

[SilkyJ]

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

I know what you're saying, but I disagree. Strongly. Having "another play to work with" in the middle of the game means at worst you punt and get the ball back several more times. Several more possessions, dozens more plays.

Having another play to work with late in the game means if you screw up, the game is now on the line with one single play. I don't think those situations compare at all. Taking a low % shot that puts you in a 4th down that could end the game is not remotely similar to taking a low % shot that means you'll still get the ball back multiple times. You take high % percentage plays in that situation and try to keep the drive moving.

[CDu]

I know what you're saying, but I disagree. Strongly. Having "another play to work with" in the middle of the game means at worst you punt and get the ball back several more times. Having another play to work with in that situation means at worst you have one play that makes or breaks the game. Screw up and the game is over. You really think those two situations compare? I don't.

Obviously the end of game situation is a much higher-pressure situation. My point was simply that we had another play to work with. In the 3rd and 1 scenario earlier in the game, the drive ends if you come up short. Same is true of the 4th and 1 situation at the end of the game. The difference is obviously that the game ends in the latter scenario. But in terms of playcalling, you shouldn't be scared to be in a "need 1 yard to continue the game" situation.

In my opinion you're just delaying the inevitable by running short plays on 3rd and 1 in that situation. We had about 1 minute left and needed 60 yards with no timeouts. Realistically, we were going to have to go for a big gainer eventually. Might as well have been there.

[SilkyJ]

Obviously the end of game situation is a much higher-pressure situation. My point was simply that we had another play to work with. In the 3rd and 1 scenario earlier in the game, the drive ends if you come up short. Same is true of the 4th and 1 situation at the end of the game. The difference is obviously that the game ends in the latter scenario. But in terms of playcalling, you shouldn't be scared to be in a "need 1 yard to continue the game" situation.

In my opinion you're just delaying the inevitable by running short plays on 3rd and 1 in that situation. We had about 1 minute left and needed 60 yards with no timeouts. Realistically, we were going to have to go for a big gainer eventually. Might as well have been there.

Ok, let's rephrase. Wouldn't it be better to try and get the 1st down. STOP THE CLOCK. Then go for the big gainer on 1st or 2nd down? If you screw up you've got 2-3 plays left, not a single play to decide the game? Surely you can't disagree with that.

[CDu]

Ok, let's rephrase. Wouldn't it be better to try and get the 1st down. STOP THE CLOCK. Then go for the big gainer on 1st or 2nd down? If you screw up you've got 2-3 plays left, not a single play to decide the game? Surely you can't disagree with that.

Sure, it might have been better to do that. Just like it might be better to get the short-yardage play on 2nd and short earlier in the game. I just don't think it was mindnumbingly dumb to go for a big gain there.

I think there were more substantial errors in playcalling than that one.

[DukeSean]

From the AP recap, some interesting "taste of your own medicine" from Wilson:

Wilson, the ACC's leading rusher, had his sixth straight 100-yard game and has hit triple digits eight times this season for Virginia Tech. He accused the Blue Devils of "doing dirty stuff" at the bottoms of piles -- specifically, "pinching, punching, reaching through the face mask" and grabbing at his groin," he said.

Yea well maybe you should tell your D guys to stop the late hits, the unnecessary roughness, and you won't get pinched, punched, reached through the face mask when you're at the bottom of a pile. We only learned from experience

[SilkyJ]

Sure, it might have been better to do that. Just like it might be better to get the short-yardage play on 2nd and short earlier in the game.

One of those plays cost us the game and the other one didn't.

I just don't think it was mindnumbingly dumb to go for a big gain there.

I appreciate your choice of words. It was indeed mindnumdingly dumb for a QB who had completed 50% of his passes and thrown 2 picks to go for a very low % play and put the game on the line when he could have gone for a high % play and kept the drive alive.

I think there were more substantial errors in playcalling than that one.

That's not what we're debating, but I can understand why you're trying to deflect. We're debating whether or not taking a low % play that puts you in a game- breaking situation is similar to a low % play that doesn't put the game on the line. I think that sentence says it all.

I'll let you have last words, I'm done with this one. I can't believe you're trying to argue this.

[CDu]

One of those plays cost us the game and the other one didn't.

You're under the mistaken impression that either example (3rd down late or 2nd down early) cost us the game.

1. it didn't end the drive
2. there was no guarantee we'd have scored if we'd completed a 3rd and short there
3. there was no guarantee we'd have gotten the short yardage play either (see INT on 4th down)

It wasn't the high-percentage play. But we needed a game-changing play at that point to win. We weren't succeeding with short-yardage plays throughout the game anyway. We had, however, connected on a few long pass plays during the game.

[SilkyJ]

You're under the mistaken impression that either example (3rd down late or 2nd down early) cost us the game.

Oh I can't resist. You're wrong again tho. One COULD cost us the game and the other COULDN'T. That's my point.

[CDu]

Oh I can't resist. You're wrong again tho. One COULD cost us the game and the other COULDN'T. That's my point.

No, I was not wrong. What you said in this post is different than the post to which I responded. You said one play cost us the game, not that one play could have cost us the game. Very different statements.

And even in your revised statement, that 3rd down play could only have cost us the game if it resulted in a turnover. In any other situation, we live to play another play. And a turnover could have just as well happened on an attempt at a short-yardage play (you know, kind of like the INT on the subsequent short-yardage play).

Now I'm off to enjoy the basketball game and forget about the loss. Happy to discuss further in 2 hours or so.

[cspan37421]

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

While I get your reasoning, I would point out that, in general, the longer the pass play, the lower the likelihood of completion. We needed but two yards to get a first down, stop the clock to move the chains, etc. Why go for such a low percentage play, esp. in that situation? It's not like we had a mismatch to exploit, AFAIK.

BTW, SilkyJ mentioned that Cut's worst decision might be to not be calling the offensive plays. I think he's on to something there.

edit: I missed all the back and forth above ... seems like my points had already been made. I do beg to differ with CDu as well, agree with SilkyJ (more than once!) I'll just leave it at that. I think it was a terrible call. If we had a speedster mismatched at WR, I could almost see it - but it's still a low % play, very likely to leave you with 4th and 2. You CAN cover 60 yards in a minute at 12-15 yards at a time. VT did it to us a lot today - our D just stiffened or they made a mistake at the end.

[killerleft]

This is a game that was ours for the taking, but we sorta left it there. And yet...

We played on even terms with a very good football team. We made more good hits today than I've seen Duke make in a long time. Our guys played extremely hard and showed that we aren't going to be bullied by anybody. I don't want to see us doing illegal things, but the quote by the VT guy saying we were "playing dirty" during the pile-ups was something I take as an overall positive remark - a little attitude goes a long way. Our defensive backs, much maligned for years, did a fine job all day. If our line could have produced more pressure it could have been a banner day.

Play calling? I've heard a lot of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing by several posters here, but I thought we actually were very well coached today. Everybody's got the answer after the play, but the coaches seemed to try about everything they could to get the offense going. Sometimes that means running some plays that are counter-intuitive, and of course they seem silly when they don't work. Renfree simply didn't have lots of time to unload the ball most plays.

Another very disappointing loss, but that's what happens when your team is showing improvement and hasn't quite learned how to win the big games yet. I prefer these games so much versus the ones B.C. (before Cut). I think we're getting there, just sad today wasn't the day we served notice.

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did! Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

This is a game that was ours for the taking, but we sorta left it there. And yet...

We played on even terms with a very good football team. We made more good hits today than I've seen Duke make in a long time. Our guys played extremely hard and showed that we aren't going to be bullied by anybody. I don't want to see us doing illegal things, but the quote by the VT guy saying we were "playing dirty" during the pile-ups was something I take as an overall positive remark - a little attitude goes a long way. Our defensive backs, much maligned for years, did a fine job all day. If our line could have produced more pressure it could have been a banner day.

Play calling? I've heard a lot of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing by several posters here, but I thought we actually were very well coached today. Everybody's got the answer after the play, but the coaches seemed to try about everything they could to get the offense going. Sometimes that means running some plays that are counter-intuitive, and of course they seem silly when they don't work. Renfree simply didn't have lots of time to unload the ball most plays.

Another very disappointing loss, but that's what happens when your team is showing improvement and hasn't quite learned how to win the big games yet. I prefer these games so much versus the ones B.C. (before Cut). I think we're getting there, just sad today wasn't the day we served notice.

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did! Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

What a game! It was as exciting as anyone could want. It was heartbreaking to lose, but there were some great highlights. There were some spectacular plays by our guys... Matt Daniels was credited for two interceptions and had a third taken away after the officials ruled on who had control and when. Conner Vernon is now #2 in all time receiving yards. And did I mention that our defense held VA Tech scoreless in the second half? Clemson is the only opponent to hold the turkeys to fewer points in a game.

[DownEastDevil]

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did! Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

My exact thoughts! What a shame!

[sagegrouse]

Duke's defense stifled a highly ranked Virginia Tech team.

For the second week in a row we seemed to be much the stronger team after halftime.

If I don't get ahold of myself, I might conclude that this Duke team will finish the season strong and outmuscle the teams we face in November. Nah! No woofing here until we put some wins on the board.

sagegrouse

[SilkyJ]

No, I was not wrong. What you said in this post is different than the post to which I responded. You said one play cost us the game, not that one play could have cost us the game. Very different statements.

And even in your revised statement, that 3rd down play could only have cost us the game if it resulted in a turnover. In any other situation, we live to play another play. And a turnover could have just as well happened on an attempt at a short-yardage play (you know, kind of like the INT on the subsequent short-yardage play).

Now I'm off to enjoy the basketball game and forget about the loss. Happy to discuss further in 2 hours or so.

I think you're splitting hairs and grasping at straws, but clearly we don't see eye to eye. I guess we need to exchange glasses or something b/c I literally can't even fathom having you're viewpoint (that going deep on a 2nd & 2 in the middle of the game is comparable to throwing the same pass on a 3rd & 2 that brings up potentially the last play of the game).

[graybead]

I'm upset that we lost today. I'm upset that Synderwine missed two very makeable FG's. . .again and we may have won with those. But I'm even more upset with our fans and our cheerleaders. When one section on the Duke side can cheer "Let's Go!" louder than any Duke cheers by the whole Duke side while the other side of the stadium responds "Hokies!", it's just embarrassing. And they were being led by their cheerleaders. I didn't see our cheerleaders doing anything.

We have the family 4-pack season tickets and sit on the side that is usually full of opposing fans. I felt alone today in my own stadium. The fans were overpowering us. If Duke fans can't get excited about being within a touchdown of beating the #12 team in the country for the entire 4th quarter, then maybe they need to watch the game at home. Reminded me of the "wine & cheese" crowd up the road. I was cheering loud enough for all the Hokie fans around me to take notice. Some even applauded my efforts. But they clearly were much more supportive of their team than our fans were.

Duke football is improving and as they still have more work to do, the fans, students and cheerleaders have some work to do as well.

[Scorp4me]

i hate being patronized by the opposing coaches and players after they beat us.

I certainly agree with the sentiment, but I don't think he was patronizing us today. Tech was lucky to get out of that stadium with a win and he knew it.

[CDu]

I think you're splitting hairs and grasping at straws, but clearly we don't see eye to eye. I guess we need to exchange glasses or something b/c I literally can't even fathom having you're viewpoint (that going deep on a 2nd & 2 in the middle of the game is comparable to throwing the same pass on a 3rd & 2 that brings up potentially the last play of the game).

And I think you're focusing too much attention on an off-hand comment comparing between mid-game and late-game.

I don't think the decision on that particular was nearly as bad as you do. You think it's awful. That play did not cost us the game. It wasn't even the worst play call of the game. Or of that drive. I'm sorry that it's gotten as much discussion as it has in this thread.

Let's move on.