Brawl In G'Town vs China

[Reilly]

I have been waiting for someone to draw this analogy, which seems both apt and inevitable. But I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, as I'm also not sure what conclusion to draw from your cleverly sarcastic post.

I think the conclusion to draw is obvious: bowling alley brawls are "just practice" for the real deal.

In America, chair wielding led to an over-charge (the Court of Appeals found that there was not enough evidence to convict the Answer of maiming by mob), but at least there was a charge for violence, and due process, and an opinion, and all that other silly law and order and rights stuff. In China, it will be interesting to watch and see what we get for similar chair wielding -- other than PR pronouncements and the like. Any prosecutions?

[Jim3k]

Also in America, in 2005 Texas Ranger pitcher Frank Francisco was sentenced after pleading guilty to the misdemeanor charge of throwing a chair which struck and injured a female fan during a game with the Oakland A's. ESPN's archived story.

Thirty days on a work detail (ten off for good behavior), 26 anger management sessions.

I was about 40 feet away from the incident and was stunned by the stupidity of it.

[viperflt]

It would be interesting to have a rough translation of the voices heard on that video. (I would assume that it is something along the lines of can you believe what is happening, someone should stop this.) It also seemed like there was an announcer talking as the Georgetown team left and bottles flew - that would be really interesting to have translated.


OK - true confession time. My recording of yesterday's Duke game did not happen. How was the attendence at our two games? This video of the Georgetown games looks like it was a really empty arena. Just curious for a crowd size comparison.

I was at the Shanghai game and the attendance was OK -- certainly not full. The entire upper deck of the area is empty (there were not even selling tickets for it).
The arena seats 18,000 people and I'd say there were about 5,000-7,000 people there. More than half were pro-Duke.

The refs were very one sided and Coach K did his proper yelling at the refs. When one of the calls got reversed (possession arrow), he "bowed" to the refs.

[hillsborodevil]

China did this....G'Town did that.....or even worse putting a political spin between two great countries.

Unfortunately, this happens everywhere around the globe - players and fans are passionate about sports.

If you want to throw blame please do so at the refs for letting the game get out of hand long before the brawl - or the NCAA for allowing NCAA teams to compete in China with Chinese refs only. The same thing would happen if Nolan/Kyrie officiated this years Duke/Carolina game.

When Duke plays an out of conference opponent do you think the game is officiated by ACC officials only?

[viperflt]

First, this is only a game. Bench clearing brawls happen in many places, so don't make this out to be some international incident. To say this incident is representative of China is like saying when there is a bench clearing brawl in the NBA, it represents all of USA.

I live in China and while this incident is mostly blocked, many people know and those who have seen the videos and photos, and the discussions here, all say China team is at fault and the security was incompetent. It's outrageous to suggest GT leave China because of this, and even more outrageous to suggest Duke leave China because of this. That's like saying after an NBA brawl, they should cancel the rest of the season!

Some other parts of this site refereed to audio of Chinese that referred to "black devil" - a highly discriminatory word. Keep in mind this phrase is very rare in China. It's more common in Chinese-American community, but really from 20-30 years ago. Those who yelled this at the game may very well be US citizens. People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans.

By the way, I was at the Duke Shanghai game on Thursday. The crowd was mostly ex-pats and most of the Chinese there speak fluent English and looks to have spent significant time in USA. Many in the crowd, including ethnic Chinese were also yelling at the refs. The lady next to me (Chinese) was yelling at the ref saying (in Chinese) "Aren't you ashamed to be so biased". I'd imagine the Beijing GT game had similar crowd mix so this is not a typical Chinese crowd.

You actually have to be pretty well of to attend these games -- The Duke game was expensive! top tick is RMB880 (USD$137) and the cheapest is around RMB330 (USD$50).

[TheItinerantSon]

JTIIIs Georgetown teams have been rather finesse-y and not particularly physical at all. So the people who are trying to invoke John Thompson the elder and the physicality of the georgetown teams of the 1980s are being rather silly (if not motivated by baser prejudices). More relevant would the chinese national basketball programs extensive history of fighting at international events.




Also this is the most preposterous statement i've read all year:

"People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans."

[killerleft]

I have a question for those more knowledgeable regarding the inner-workings of Chinese politics.

Is there a reasonable chance, independent of what is said publicly about the brawl, the government may punish any Chinese players and/or coaches privately for their part in it? Severe secret penalties do seem to be the Chinese Way.

Maybe my question seems unneeded, but nobody has mentioned what may be in store for those people behind the scenes.

[viperflt]

JTIIIs Georgetown teams have been rather finesse-y and not particularly physical at all. So the people who are trying to invoke John Thompson the elder and the physicality of the georgetown teams of the 1980s are being rather silly (if not motivated by baser prejudices). More relevant would the chinese national basketball programs extensive history of fighting at international events.




Also this is the most preposterous statement i've read all year:

"People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans."

Why do you think that? How do you know?

[viperflt]

I have a question for those more knowledgeable regarding the inner-workings of Chinese politics.

Is there a reasonable chance, independent of what is said publicly about the brawl, the government may punish any Chinese players and/or coaches privately for their part in it? Severe secret penalties do seem to be the Chinese Way.

Maybe my question seems unneeded, but nobody has mentioned what may be in store for those people behind the scenes.

Very likely -- that's the way Chinese handles things. They probably won't ever say anything in public, but privately, they will deal with it.

[proelitedota]

Let's just say that the Bayi player's ears are still ringing from the tirade that they got from the sergeant, and outside of basketball, their careers in everything else is pretty much over.

[licc85]

Let's just say that the Bayi player's ears are still ringing from the tirade that they got from the sergeant, and outside of basketball, their careers in everything else is pretty much over.

I don't think this is too much of a stretch from the actual truth. I REALLY can't imagine the government doing anything less, but obviously, we'll never know about it for sure. While it is a pretty severe punishment for a basketball brawl, it did look extremely bad for the Chinese hosts and for Chinese athletics in general. The government probably wasn't too happy, I almost feel bad for them now.

[uh_no]

I don't think this is too much of a stretch from the actual truth. I REALLY can't imagine the government doing anything less, but obviously, we'll never know about it for sure. While it is a pretty severe punishment for a basketball brawl, it did look extremely bad for the Chinese hosts and for Chinese athletics in general. The government probably wasn't too happy, I almost feel bad for them now.

With the amount of charade that was put up for the olympics, it becomes clear that one of the chinese government's main goals is to appear dazzling to the west. This stage of basketball games against US universities was likely means to the same end.

[licc85]

So apparently, the Bayi Rockets are known for fighting. For those of you who weren't familiar with their background, they are affiliated with the People's Liberation Army, which was started in 1927 as the military branch of the newly established communist regime. They are indeed trained in hand to hand combat and Zhu Fangyu, from the Chinese the national team was once famously quoted saying "When Bayi can’t put up shots, they put up their fists instead."

I also found a hilarious article which discusses how each of our players would deal with a similar situation, enjoy:

http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/...have-to-fight/

[Greg_Newton]

I also found a hilarious article which discusses how each of our players would deal with a similar situation, enjoy:

http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/...have-to-fight/

I thought Tyler Thornton's analysis was particularly hilarious:

If you’re China, this is the guy you don’t want to see in the fight. Thornton is a classic self-preserver, excelling despite his height and limited ability. When someone like him ends up at Duke, it really says something; he knows how to get [stuff] done. So when the brawl started, he’d disappear. If you saw his initial movements, you’d think he was a coward. But he’d be circling around, waiting for the right moment, and then he’d become absolute hell for the enemy. The minute any Chinese player engaged a Dukie, he’d have like 5 seconds before Thornton hit him from behind in the balls or kidney. By the time they turned around, he’d be gone. He’d spend most of the fight crawling between people’s knees. At the end of the fight, Thornton would be the one guy with no bruises and who wasn’t having any kind of adrenaline rush. He’s the definition of a dude who can handle himself.

[OldSchool]

I agree that the particular incident started with the shove/punch. But I have trouble believing the shove/punch alone was enough to start the melee that resulted. There had to be a LOT of questionable incidents (both ways) leading up to that shove/punch. I just can't imagine an isolated swing setting off such an incident so quickly. The Chinese had to be ready to fight already, and that was likely spawned by previous proceedings.

Given the location, the difference in ages/experience, and the way it escalated, I'd have to put a LOT more blame on the Chinese side. Georgetown certainly isn't without blame, though, as it's hard to excuse taking a swing at someone in a basketball game.

ESPNU showed the fight at halftime of today's China-Duke game.

Slowing it down to look at frame-by-frame, I agree that the spark that set off the melee was when Jason Clark took a swing at #10 for Bayi, after #10 had just come down hard on Clark trying to stuff a pass by Clark.

What the Chinese players did after that was completely inexcusable.

But what a complete friggin' idiot Jason Clark was. Most of us have played against guys who just don't like us and maybe we don't like them. So there are some hard plays and some hard fouls that happen. Some guy intentionally elbows you in the rib going for a rebound, maybe he gets a shoulder in the solar plexus on the other end at the next contesting of a rebound.

But in my view when someone takes a swing at another player having nothing to do with a play on or for the ball, which is what Jason Clark did, that takes things to another level entirely, even in a chippy game when guys are taking cheap shots at each other when making plays on the ball.

I'm reminded of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith a couple of years back at Maryland. Some thought it was legal play, I thought it was a moving pick and a cheap shot. But instead of taking a swing at a Maryland player, Gerald Henderson threw down a massive dunk and Duke handed them a L.

Again, what Jason Clark did doesn't excuse the reprehensible response by the Chinese players to his punch.

[CDu]

ESPNU showed the fight at halftime of today's China-Duke game.

Slowing it down to look at frame-by-frame, I agree that the spark that set off the melee was when Jason Clark took a swing at #10 for Bayi, after #10 had just come down hard on Clark trying to stuff a pass by Clark.

What the Chinese players did after that was completely inexcusable.

But what a complete friggin' idiot Jason Clark was. Most of us have played against guys who just don't like us and maybe we don't like them. So there are some hard plays and some hard fouls that happen. Some guy intentionally elbows you in the rib going for a rebound, maybe he gets a shoulder in the solar plexus on the other end at the next contesting of a rebound.

But in my view when someone takes a swing at another player having nothing to do with a play on or for the ball, which is what Jason Clark did, that takes things to another level entirely, even in a chippy game when guys are taking cheap shots at each other when making plays on the ball.

I'm reminded of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith a couple of years back at Maryland. Some thought it was legal play, I thought it was a moving pick and a cheap shot. But instead of taking a swing at a Maryland player, Gerald Henderson threw down a massive dunk and Duke handed them a L.

Again, what Jason Clark did doesn't excuse the reprehensible response by the Chinese players to his punch.

What Clark did was unacceptable. But we also don't know how much other stuff happened prior to Clark's swipe at the Chinese player. I have trouble believing that Clark's swipe came out of nowhere, and I have trouble believing that a singular shove/swing like Clark's would incite such an over-the-top response. I suspect that a lot of lesser stuff happened prior to that entire incident.

Neither team is without blame in this. Clark shouldn't have shoved/swung at the Chinese player, and the Chinese team shouldn't have gone postal from there. But I can almost guarantee that a lot of stuff happened that led to the boiling over for Clark and then for the Chinese team.